posted
My first boyfriend is having problems letting go.
We knew each other for almost seven years before we started dating. I think we kinda fell into dating. It was 1999, the millennium was ending, and I was turning 25. I had really thought I would be married by that time. But I hadn't even had a real boyfriend. And not only had he never had a girlfriend, he had never even kissed anyone before. Worse, he had believed that he would never find anyone for him--not even to date.
Yeah, I was probably stupid to date him. But I just wanted to date someone so badly, and he was convenient. *winces* I know, it's terrible of me to date someone because they were convenient. I still haven't forgiven myself for this, and so I am constantly angry whenever he contacts me. Because it just reminds me of how bad I treated him.
Anyway, continuing on... yeah, it was a dysfunctional relationship. At least I tried to communicate. I tried to express my feelings, though it was hard. He, though... he wouldn't listen. He had me on such a high pedestal that he couldn't see me for who I am. All he say was what I could provide him with. He didn't even try to meet any of my needs--things that I asked him, pleaded him for--because he couldn't see that they were important.
I was so miserable, not only because of what I wasn't getting from him, but of the person I was turning into around him, that I eventually broke it off. Yay me for being smart and taking care of myself! I tried to be friends with him for a while, but it just wasn't working out. I still felt angry and miserable, and he was still asking too much of me. And so I told him in an email that I thought it would be best if we went our separate ways and broke off all contact.
To his benefit, he pretty much stuck to this. Stopped calling me, stopped emailing me. But then I got this letter, and it really sounded like he had changed. He sounded positive, happy, less of the depressed person he was. And so I tenatively agreed to renew contact.
Shortly after that I got an email from him.
The email was congratulating me on my three year anniversary of being a homeowner. Now, at the time, I couldn't even remember the exact date I moved in, he did. Creep factor #1. And then he went on to say things like "I've been working out, developing really strong muscles, so if you ever need help moving again, just let me know." This REALLY creeped me out. Because he KNEW at the time that I was seeing someone, and I couldn't help but feel that he was trying to impress me, to win me back.
Needless to say, I broke off contact with him again at this point. I have not responded to an email or letter since then.
But he still persists on trying to get back in touch with me. He doesn't call, and he can't email me because he doesn't have my current email address. But he still writes me letters. And they are getting more and more desperate sounding. I got a letter saying he was going to do the Chicago Marathon. Now, good for him, because I know what a accomplishment this is, having done a marathon myself... but I can't help but feel one of his reasons for doing the marathon was to impress me. Or to be linked to me in some way, by doing something I have enjoyed and participated in myself. Which is creepy.
He sent me a Christmas card this year, pleading me to be friends with him again. I am his "motivation and inspiration", he says, and he will not be happy until we are friends again. Now, I'm codependent myself, but this guy, he's codependent to the infinite power. *shudders*
On Sunday I found a tag from FedEx on my door. They had attempted to deliver something Friday--something that couldn't be left because of "high value". I was puzzled, since I wasn't expecting anything, but I left a signature for them to leave it today anyway. Got home to see an unrecognizable box sitting at the front door. I immediately knew it was from the creep.
He sent me a Vermont Teddy Bear, with a green bow around his neck (the creep is Irish) and wearing a banner saying "To A Huggable New Friendship". The card reads "May this huggable Bear bring you lots of smiles, brightness, and warmth, as the gift of your friendship would do the same to me." Now, this would be sweet if it was from a new friend, but coming from someone who I have no wish to speak to EVER again, it just feels very, very creepy and desperate.
I just don't know what to do anymore. I am sitting here, literally shaking, about to burst into tears. I feel so sick and dirty. I just wish he would leave me alone and move on with his life. I've refrained from replying to any of his letters because I felt that any response--even one firmly telling him to leave me alone--would just encourage him, or make him even more desperate. I firmly believe that he is deranged.
posted
Well if you ever need to get out of your place for a couple days you are welcome here. (Though obviously that would be a more last resort) I can't think of anything more concrete right now. Maybe send the bear back to him directly.
posted
:: huggle :: I was reading while you posted onto mine, hehehe...sorry the chance was there, I couldn't resist. I'm not overly sure what you should do, though I suppose you could warily (very warily) attempt to establish minor communication, maybe an email or two, though you're right...that man is being really scary and probably should get some therapy. Though, note that I'm not a person that likes to completely turn anybody away...and because of that I've learned to develop a very high patience level for scary people. Satyagraha
Posts: 1986 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Going to the cops sounds good, but I don't think you have any basis for the cops to do anything. To someone who doesn't understand what you're going through, it may appear that you're upset because someone sent you a teddy-bear. We know better from what you've told us, but that's what the cops will think.
He's a creep, yes, and he should be stopped...but he really hasn't done anything illegal.
Has he threatened you?
Posts: 3852 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
Return the bear to him, with a note telling him you don't want any communication from him under any circumstances. Then keep returning any mail. If he persists, I'd look into legal action then. It doesn't sound like he's dangerous. Just annoying.
I had a "friend" like this, not even an exboyfriend, and ultimately I moved. I was moving anyway, so I just didn't tell him where. It's been 5 or 6 years now, and though he could certainly find me if he wanted, he must have caught the hint when I moved and didn't give him my forwarding address.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Needless to say, I broke off contact with him again at this point.
Did you tell him you were breaking off contact? If you did communicate your desire to have no contact, then by all means, go to the cops. If you just stopped responding and changed your e-mail address, then you need to let him know that you no longer wish to have contact.
(If you did tell him no more contact, you need to start keeping the letters and bringing them to the police. How close does he live to you? If you are close, once the cops contact him, you will need to be more careful. You also might look into what is involved in getting a TRO, so you are prepared when you need one.)
Posts: 171 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
The cops are likely a good idea; however be prepared for them to be dismissive. Be prepared to push to be taken seriously -- since he hasn't actually (from what you said) done anything blatantly threatening, there will likely be attempts to soothe you and minimize the problem. Don't let them! (Now, you may get lucky and be taken absolutely seriously, but from what I've heard from friends, stalker-types with high creep-factor but who haven't made any actual threats are seen as pretty low-risk by many police departments.)
And find out, either from the police or elsewhere, what the process is to get a restraining order.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I actually went to the cops last year because I got a letter in the mail from some guy in jail I had never heard from.
The cops said it probably wasn't anything to worry about. But they looked into it. They asked a lot of questions, and called me the next day at work to ask even more questions, and contacted the jail to find out what the guy was in for. I was pleased with how the cops treated me.
You're right in that he hasn't actually threatened me in any way. But I think there's enough here to warrant talking to the cops. His contact IS unwanted and is causing me emotional anguish. And I have changed my life because of this guy. I no longer attend the church of my choice or sing in its awesome choir because it's the church he attends. I hold my breath every time I go to the mall because I'm afraid I'll run into him. He lives six miles away -- not close enough that I'll run into him on a day-to-day basis, but close enough to be a threat.
And I think his actions are showing that he is getting more dangerous. For a long time it was only a letter every now and then. He tried to call me a few months ago (I forget exactly when; maybe I posted something about it in my journal. Will have to check). And now he's sending me presents. What is he going to do next?
If I go to the cops, there's a chance they might dismiss me. But at least I will have a record of the complaint. So the NEXT time it happens, I may be taking more seriously. And yeah, I've kept most of the stuff he's sent me. Unfortunately, I have extended family who had to deal with a psycho, so I know a bit about keeping records of contact. I should probably keep even better records, though.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Xnera, do you have a boy friend or a menacing looking guy friend who could talk to this guy?
BTW, do you guys consider these two scenarios stalking?
1. Meg Ryan following Tom Hanks around in Sleepless in Seattle.
2. Tom Hanks following Meg Ryan around in You've Got Mail.
Since the stalker's love was recipricated in the end, their efforts were not called stalking. We called it, "love triumphs over all." But if their love was not recipricated, wouldn't they be the biggest stalkers in the world for the kind of stuff they were doing?
Posts: 4116 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
No, not dating anyone right now. And I don't really have any guy friends.
There's been times lately that I wish I did have a boyfriend who could tell my ex to piss off. Heck, there's been times over the past two years that I've wished I was engaged so my ex will know I'm completely unavailable to him romantically.
But even if I were, I don't think that will stop him. Note how the first message I got from him that creeped me out occured after I started dating again.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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Thank you for your continued interest. Enclosed, please find your bear. It sucks. I hate bears and I hate you. I hate the color green.
The next time you attempt to communicate with me, I am calling the cops. I've asked you to stop, but you're too stupid to take the hint. In any case, I hope you do try to communicate with me because I hate you and would love to see your life destroyed.
Sincerely,
xnera
ps. Go to hell.
How's that sound? If that doesn't do the trick, then you can call the cops with a clear conscience.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
You need to write him a letter, explaining in succinct detail that you don't want him contacting you any longer. Not even in reply to the letter telling him to leave you alone. Explain that any more correspondence will be submitted to the police. Make a copy of the letter. Get it postmarked and make a copy or a digital photo of that, if you can. If you go to the post office to do it, you can usually have either that done, or get it postmarked with priority mail and get a nice reciept and proof that it was sent. Take the copies and the postmarked reciept to the police department, telling them what you did, and ask them if they suggest any more steps. If any more correspondence comes in from him, then press charges. If he shows up at your place, call the cops, then press charges. If he does either of the previous two things, you would have taken the necessary steps to ensure you get a proper restraining order.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I've started gathering all the correspondence I've received from him.
I decided I'm going to take it to therapy tomorrow, so we can discuss a safety plan for me. The family services office is right next to the police station, so if we decide I need to get the police involved, all I have to do is walk next door.
I am very tired right now. All I wanted to do tonight was eat leftover Chinese food and read some Harry Potter fanfic. Instead I'm digging through files and reading stalking websites. Ugh.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Oh, and if I DO send him a letter (which I highly doubt I will), it will simply say, "I do not wish to have any contact with you. Please do not contact me again." That's it. Direct and to the point, can't be misinterpreted, and doesn't make any threats in return. But at this point, I'm too scared of his reaction to even send him ANYTHING in reply.
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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No, xnera, that's what you need to do. You need to write something short and sweet, with no pleasantries, and make sure you have it recorded. You don't need to make a copy of the actual letter or anything, but a reciept at the post office isn't a bad idea. If he replies, then you have something you can take to the cops. Do not reply to that one, if it happens. If he shows up, call the cops, and you have an instant basis for a restraining order. While not feeding his fantasy of having some kind of relationship is what is needed here, you need to make sure your own tail is covered legally before you take it to the police, and you need to do it as hands-off as possible. It isn't about whether to feed his fantasy or not, it's about making sure you are safe and covered by the law. If he's really deluded into thinking you are a good friend and a possible romance, then even ignoring him isn't going to make him stop pining over you. Telling him flat-out to leave you alone makes it clear that you want no contact, and if he breaches that, he's then stepped into the realm of being a target for being litigated.
(the sigh is because I told mack I wasn't going to post) [/delurk]
Posts: 779 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
When I started tutoring at the school we went over abuse reporting, and you make two copies of your record. Send one copy to him. Keep a copy for reference, and send the original to yourself postmarked but don't open it, just file it in case of evidence. I don't know that this is needed, but if you're going to copy stuff, do it right. Don't send him the original because he could append threatening remarks and turn around and screw up your life.
The funny response would be to send back a picture of the bear being held by a manly bare chested man with a note that says: "I can't wait to hear more from you." :heart: Chad
He probably keeps the tracking slip as evidence that you received it and he does have contact with you. But I'm paranoid.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
xnera - if you have a copy of a previous communication saying don't contact me, you're next step is getting either an anti-harrassment order or a restraining order. Even if you DO NOT have a previous communication, you still have the absolute legal right to go to the courts and ask for a protection order.
This is no joke - mack is right - DO NOT CONTACT THIS PERSON AGAIN.
I don't know which state you're in, but all states should have programs that will assist people in these sorts of areas. Courts should have victim advocates to help you decide what paperwork and how to get through the process. Call and ask.
The problem is that the first time I told him not to contact me, I did it in a way to "let him down easy". So that he probably read into it that he still had some chance.
And then I got stupid, because I received this letter from him that sounded like he was completely different, so I thought I would give him a chance again. So I started talking to him again. Not emailing or calling. Just, if I ran into him at church, stopping to say hi.
But then I got that email about the anniversary of my condo and his muscles, and I got creeped out, and I stopped replying. I don't remember if this time I told him not to contact me. I don't think I did. Because at this point I began to realize just how deluded he was, and I know just enough about psychology and behavior to know that any contact, even negative, would likely lead him on.
So yeah, that's why I'm gathering all my stuff. To see when exactly I told him to leave me alone.
posted
It's nice to have the "stuff" xnera - but you still have a right to legal protection. Court protection helps the police take the issue a wee bit more seriously. I'll hop onto the internet and see if I can find a link for you -
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Restraining orders are very easy to get if the other person has no business relationship with you or reasonable reason to be near you otherwise (such as mutual kids, and even then its possible).
If you can show creepy letters, you can definitely get one; all it would cost is the amount to have one served, basically (not much).
And then if he contacted you again, the cops would definitely listen.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Perhaps it would be best to bite the bullet and say to him what you've said here:
That you don't want any relationship with him and that the recent actions have creeped you out and made you fearful of him.
Sometimes it is best to be blunt. This guy is doing what he can in his life to make himself more attractive to you because he wants to fulfill your desires for him, at least as he sees them. If he knew what his actions were really producing, he'd probably change his ways. If he's smart, he'll go on about his life and realize that the changes he has made have been for his own good more than anything else.
It's a case of truth being more powerful than polite. If he doesn't know what the effects of his actions really are, how can he ever learn to walk away?
Edit to add: And return the teddy bear. Don't throw it away, return it.
quote: This guy is doing what he can in his life to make himself more attractive to you because he wants to fulfill your desires for him, at least as he sees them
Yeah -- kinda like the guy who grew a beard and starting wearing a cowboy hat all the time just because he knew I was attracted to cowboys with beards.. but on him it was totally creepy and just didn't fit! <makes me shiver just thinking about how creepy he was.....>
You're getting great advice, and I can't really add to that, but I can sympathize. My first 'real' boyfriend (first real kiss) was just that sort of thing. My friends had boyfriends, and he was interested (and a couple years older) so I went with him for the sake of having stuff to tell my friends. I'm completely ashamed of it now, just as you are, but my point is I understand.
The same sort of thing happened when I broke up with him (though he was 16 and I was 14, so all I had to do was hide and my mother had a talk with him. That worked, because my mother was a). very beautiful and b). an expert at handling fragile male egos).
Of course, your sitch is much more serious, but don't beat yourself up too much for letting it happen. We all have moments of weakness.
One, read The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker. It will say much more than any of us can on this thread.
Two, DO NOT SEND BACK the teddy bear or communicate with him in any way. You're instinct not to contact him is correct. If you send back the bear, you've taught him the price of getting a reaction from you is one teddy bear.
Three, if you do go to the police, do so to provide a record and let them know what's going on. When he does something more overtly threatening, they will take it more seriously. But you don't want them to contact him for you. Remember, he's not motivated by the same things that motivate you. A visit from the police might make him think "She must like me to go to that much trouble over me." Worse, it might be viewed as a threat to his dignity, which is one of the triggers for escalating stalking to violence.
The police think that if they talk to the guy he won't do anything because he'd be easy to catch. But they're applying rational thinking to an irrational situation.
Remember, you're not looking for justice or to make him "get it." He's never going to realize his behavior is unacceptable. You're looking to be safe and to get him to leave you alone.
The one thing you control about this situation is how you react to him. Don't give up that advantage.
posted
I just want to point out that while this situation is potentially dangerous, and you do need to be careful, it is still possible for a mild stalker to move on and recover without anything horrible happening. My wife was once stalked by a friend of mine, and though she had to keep him totally incommunicado for over a year, eventually, he really did get over it, and even participated in our wedding. Which was a huge relief to me, because he really has been one of my closest friends for many years, and it would have been tragic if I'd had to choose between him and my wife.
I'm not trying to tell you that it's "no big deal" or that you shouldn't worry. I agree with much of the advice here, and I think you're being unusually smart about the whole thing. I'm just saying that while your sense of dread is leading you into good decisions, don't let it overwhelm you. Things can, and probably will, eventually calm down and turn out for the best.
By the way, can we come to any kind of a consensus about whether or not the world will end if she does or does not send a final dismissing letter? Posts: 1907 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Two, DO NOT SEND BACK the teddy bear or communicate with him in any way. You're instinct not to contact him is correct. If you send back the bear, you've taught him the price of getting a reaction from you is one teddy bear.
This is what my therapist said tonight. And you're both right. I certainly don't want him to think that he can "buy" my friendship or manipulate me in any way. So yeah, I'm going to keep the bear, and I'm not going to send him a letter. Just going to do the same thing I always do when he mails me something -- nothing.
quote:Three, if you do go to the police, do so to provide a record and let them know what's going on.
Yeah, this is why I was thinking of going to the police. I agree that the situation isn't threatening enough yet to get an order of protection, or to have them talk to him. Basically, all I want is some record of what's been happening.
I'm feeling a bit better about the whole thing now. I may be doing nothing, but it's a concious, rational decision. I'm not hiding from him in fear or letting it change my life (anymore than it already has, anyway).
Posts: 1805 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
There is a fine line between being romantic and being stalkerish, but I don't think this dude has even gotten near that point yet. Until he starts showing up at your workplace and driving by your house every night, I'd just take it as flattery and leave it be. His harmless attempts at starting a relationship with you are not worthy of police action. I honestly think that you're over-reacting and a lot of people on this board are feeding the flames.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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The only proper response to "I don't want to have any more contact with you" is "OK." Either he's a socially inept guy who needs to not be further encouraged or he's a larval stalker. Either way, contact of any kind sends the wrong message.
All stalker behavior starts as inappropriate contact. And a $100 teddy bear as a gift to someone who has requested no contact is inappropriate. That's why the recommended steps are relatively minor here - these don't do anything to harm the potential stalker or even offend his dignity. If he is innocent, there's no harm done. If he's potentially dangerous, this is the step most likely to make him shift his interest elsewhere.
One of the key indicators for stalkers who progress to violence is the victim feeling "creeped" out. The human mind possesses amazing intuitive ability. It processes sensory data that the conscious mind is never aware of. Only xnera is in possession of all the relevant facts about this guy.
If she feels "creeped out" she needs to rely on her intuitive assessment and act accordingly.
xnere - trust your instincts. You're not doing anything wrong to him. You can't make him angry, or desperate, or violent, or anything else.
With any luck, you'll have to endure a couple more months of contact and then he'll be gone.
Dagonee P.S., all this is in the book - I don't want to take credit for any of it.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I don't know about Illinois, but here in WA they take stalking very seriously. I told this one person leave me alone in any number of ways (polite or not) and finally I took the over 50 letters received in 3 months period and my noting of driving by work and home to the judge and she slapped a big ole restraining order on the person.
I share this because I remember feeling ashamed, afraid (for myself and my son) and totally at a loss for how to react - and I worked in an agency that deals with DV issues.
The judge was no nonsense about it. Say it once (leave me alone) and if the attempts at contact continue, it's illegal - not just inappropriate.
I hope, xnera, that you continue to take your situation in seriousness and don't let it go as far as mine. Sad to say, but by the time I went to the courts, my mail was being messed with and my car and house was being broken into. (Several years ago, thank heavens - all is well now) But by far, the fear was the most crippling part. Once I took action, I felt better.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I also have a friend who got a restraining order on a guy that insisted on contacting her after being told not to. Once he attempted three times, the restraining order was placed. That simple. Cops take it very seriously here as well.
Posts: 14745 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:The only proper response to "I don't want to have any more contact with you" is "OK." Either he's a socially inept guy who needs to not be further encouraged or he's a larval stalker.
I disagree. You see, in the first post, it was clearly indicated that she told him to buzz off, then resumed contact, then ceased contact without telling him to buzz off again. This could very well be a case of mixed signals. Yes, if the guy didn't take the no response as a hint, he's more than likely socially lacking. It doesn't make his behavior criminal until he actually is told to cease contact and does not. The police will tell you the same, exact thing. Restraining orders are easy to get, as long as there is just cause. Legally, it'd be difficult to convince the judge that mixed signals is just cause.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
What do I need to read up on? She told the guy to buzz off, but then later resumed talking to him. I think you guys are tilting at windmills here, damning the guy because of a colored viewpoint.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Ahhh - I see, Argent. There's nothing like blissful ignorance. Well, enjoy!
Xnera - stick to your guns. You do what you need to to feel safe and take care of you. Don't EVEN worry about the opinions stated on the thread - mine or anyone else's - or in other parlance - take what you like and leave the rest!
You are the only person that knows what you need and I support YOUR choice in the matter wholeheartedly. Whatever you decide to do. I trust you to make the best decision for you.
posted
Wow, that was a friendly response. I'm not saying she should try to reason with the guy, or have some heart to heart about why she doesn't want to talk to him. I'm saying that unless you've already decided that the guy was a creep by xnera saying so from the start, what this looks like is a case of mixed signals that will likely cause more inconvenience than it will help by overreacting. I'm not even saying this guy's behavior is acceptable, except that if he's as inexperienced with the opposite sex as was described here, it's no wonder he's still pining for his "first love." He hasn't been described as behaving creepy yet, just very stupid and childish. That's hardly just cause for a restraining order. Go ask a judge.
Posts: 346 | Registered: Jan 2003
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