He's posting about it in his blog. He decided to try using a Mac as his primary desktop machine for a month, and so got his hands on a dual 2GHz G5.
What I like about Anand's blog as against AnandTech is that he's talking about his experiences as a user rather than running an exhaustive set of benchmarks with every conceivable application. I'm sure he'll get around to that as well, but I'm more interested in what he has to say about ease of use and ease of switching – if he's had any major snags, if there are Windows features he just can't do without, and so forth. Basically, I'm curious to see what the switching experience is like for him. Apple would do well to keep an eye on what he has to say.
It's also good to see that he isn't getting hate mail from Mac and PC zealots. Mac users are giving him pointers (keyboard shortcuts, useful third-party tools, and so forth) rather than flaming him, which is good to see. I hope that lasts.
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Personally, I decided to sell my Fujitsu P3 1Ghz laptop last friday to a friend and purchased a G3 iBook with OSX (10.3) to try out, though I'm not using it as my primary computer, I'm going to be rather curious as to how simular and different our experiences are going to be (especially where a couple of us are going to be entering a film festival here, so I'll be using my digital vid camera, and the laptop will be able to download the footage to work on "in field" as well as on my desktop in the room. Satyagraha
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Bernie, you might try sending a letter to apple asking for an extra digital vid camera or computer to work with. They loan them out for a contest they sponsor each year, and might be willing to lend for this one .
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How much does a dual 2ghz CPU G5 cost? I want to try OSX, but I don't have the money for a Apple computer. They're waaaay to expensive.
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If you just want to experiment with OS X, dropping $3,000 US on the nicest Mac available (the dual 2GHz) is probably overkill.
The dual 1.8GHz is $2500 US. (That's the one I have.) They also have educational discounts (my machine cost $2900 CAD). Nonetheless, it'd be an expensive experiment.
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Hm... This computer has the same features (except CPU and bus speed) you can get at Dell for 7,700 USD. The Dell's comparable one is 3ghz single CPU with a 800mhz bus. I think I would buy a cheaper Apple. I didn't Microsoft Office can run on OSX! Sweet!
[ February 10, 2004, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
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About $3000, similar to computers with similar feature sets.
I bought this g3 iBook (600 MHz) for $600; MHz = price is pretty much the rule with used apple laptops (it came with a wireless card and extra RAM).
i think you'll find that Apple computers are competitively priced for quality of construction/features. Will you be able to find a faster one for cheaper? Sure. However, once you start including features other than speed apple's value starts coming into line.
Also, raw speed just isn't that big a deal. I'm doing fine on this iBook (384 MB) and I have 6 Desktop applications open and working, as well as running Cocoon (an XML oriented servlet and framework) on top of JBoss/Tomcat (a decently resource intensive J2EE server), and a few other nice background apps like SSHd and Apache.
This isn't even a particularly high load for me, I'm often running 13 or 14 apps -- and I'm regularly switching back and forth between most of them, not just letting all but one idle.
Can I run WarCraft 3 at an acceptable speed? No, though I can run it at a playable (that is, enough to progress a decent ways before I got bored) speed even on my 400 MHz g3. However, for just about any application except gaming my laptop is wonderfully adequate. Even 3d modeling using blender or POV-ray is plenty fast.
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Liquor -- isn't going to happen for an abundance of reasons, and doesn't really make sense either. Apple doesn't make money off of OS X, not compared to their hardware divisions.
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That's a pretty tricked-out Mac you linked to, Nick. The 23" Cinema Display alone is worth a significant chunk of that Mac's cost
Mmmmmmmmm... cinema display...
L&F, porting OS X to x86 would kill Apple. They make their money on hardware. Of course, that doesn't stop lots of people from hoping, since Darwin already exists for x86.
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Well, my computer runs WC3 very quickly, but I'm not into the computer games anymore. I'm into doing as many things as I can all at the same time. I would be the kind of person that would have a gigabyte of RAM and use all of it. Bare minimum for a G5 for me: Here.
[ February 10, 2004, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
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I have 1GB of RAM in my dual 1.8GHz G5, and I generally use a bit over 600MB of it in typical usage, more when I'm doing audio work.
Edit:
You definitely want 1GB of RAM in the dual G5, because individual processors don't share memory. Also, I don't know that I'd buy a display from Apple unless it was the 20" or 23"; you can get higher contrast ratios for the same amount of money from other vendors.
I'd take the Radeon 9600 Pro over the FX5200, too.
quote: That's a pretty tricked-out Mac you linked to, Nick.
Yes, I know. I wouldn't buy that unless I made 200,000 USD a year anyway. I was just comparing a top-notch PC and a top-notch Apple. Maybe I should get an apple. One of the main Apple factories of the middle west coast is 3-4 miles from my house. Think I could ask for some leftover parts or something?
[ February 10, 2004, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Nick ]
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You also included what's really low end professional video editing software -- the stuff apple computers come with free is already better than what Dell includes (iMovice, iDVD), a Server operating system (this is far above XP Pro, think more like 2k3 Server, and includes support) in addition to the included operating system, a professional and very large LCD screen, and 8 Gigabytes of RAM (the Dell has this much) at Apple's admittedly high prices for RAM-- but since the stuff you can buy elsewhere works fine in Macs, its hardly fair including the RAM in the price at Apple's prices.
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>> Since you seem to be so knowledgeable about Apple computers fugu, tell me, is it posssible to network a PC with a Mac? <<
Yes. TomD has had problems networking with Panther (he administers a good-sized network, I believe), so I assume it doesn't always work, but for me it has been plug 'n play as far as sharing my files with Windows users and getting shared files from Windows users is concerned. No problems whatsoever.
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Should we really be comparing a Dell to an apple? Why not something AMD based? Then you could have each system 64 bit, probably a better comparison.
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For once Apple and PC users are peacefully exchanging information, don't ruin by making this a "AMD is better than Pentium" thread. Please don't. AMD are not what's popular. I was just comparing what was the popular top notch PC with a top notch Apple.
*rubs hands together* *thinks of starting saving for G5*
I have a windows network here at home so I wanted to know if it could work my my internet.
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quote: don't ruin by making this a "AMD is better than Pentium" thread.
Sorry, that was not at all my intent, and from what I have seen on hatrack, that particular fight doesn't come up. I do like AMD's processors, however, I am not an AMD fanboy. I was just saying that comparing two 64 bit systems makes more sense.
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The WC3 thing is likely more due to my video card -- which, in tower macs, is very upgradable. However, I have an 8MB ATI Rage (note that this is even below the level OS X is hardware accelerated at); a 32MB video card in computer with comparable other specs could probably play WC3.
As for the computer you specced out, buy the display from someone else and ditch the .Mac subscription (I think its a good buy, but most people don't): $2,763.95 .
That's pretty comparable to similar computers from vendors; for instance, I specced out a Dell Precision workstation: Dual 2.66 P4 (single 3.2 would have been much more expensive), nVidia Quadro NVS 280 64MB dual monitor DVI or VGA capable (the apple has two different connectors, so this is the closest one on the Dell), A425 Speakers (I think the ones with the G5 are better, but again closest possible), Audigy 2 (the G5 has great sound output capabilities and the only other option is crappy onboard audio), a single DVD burner, a 120 GB SATA hard drive (less than you have on the G5, but they don't offer 160s), deleted the modem,
I didn't include A/V software in the Dell, though it would have been appropriate . The lowest amount of support I can include is 3 years, so I upgraded the g5's warranty to applecare (also 3 years): $3,012.95
The Dell came to $2,622; That's within striking distance, and is with: much less cache/processor bus (shared memory, too), a 40 gigabyte smaller hard drive (SATA, don't forget), less ability to expand hard drives (the SATA controller is for one drive only), worse speakers, and a warranty plan you probably wouldn't buy (you get one year by default with the g5, I just included the applecare because the Dell didn't have any way of getting rid of it).
Are there better deals on PCs out there? Yeah. Is there a huge disparity in pricing? Not so much, anymore.
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quote: Sorry, that was not at all my intent, and from what I have seen on hatrack, that particular fight doesn't come up.
It's all good. I wasn't suggesting that it happens on Hatrack, but it does with a lot of people I used to work with.
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Yes, apple computers can easily work with windows computers, networked.
Oh yeah, and I forgot that the Mac can have a lot more memory than the PC in the future in my spec outs. And has Gigabit ethernet, though that won't matter in most cases.
Yes, lets do a 64 bit comparison.
I configured a similar Workstation system from Alienware. I won't go down the entire list, but some highlights are: dual 2400+, slightly better vid card (128MB), one year warranty (so use the one year warranty price of the g5), worse hard drives (two 80's, only ATA-100), likely noisier and hotter (this is a dual opteron system), but it has a free T shirt: $2,612.00. The comparable G5 is $2,763.95 .
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Who makes a single channel SATA controller? That system can also take 2 drives just like the G5 (assuming you mean the Precision Workstation 450). You simply choose the 2 drive controller which is the same cost as the single. Posts: 5422 | Registered: Dec 2001
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Ooh, didn't even notice the two drive controller was the same price -- I was going down the list pretty fast. Still, that was only a minor remark.
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??? Opterons don't use the performance rating. I assume you mean dual 248s? If so, 246s would be better as they are running at the same clock speed as the g5.
quote: worse hard drives (two 80's, only ATA-100)
You could go somewhere besides Alienware, and get better hard drives, and the last time I checked, Alienware has many more hard drive choices.
Also, this system WILL outperform the g5, however, the g5 does have the better OS.
I'm curios about the sound quality of the g5. Is it as Good as an Audigy 2 ZS? (assuming each system is using the same speakers, of course)
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quote: Oh yeah, and I forgot that the Mac can have a lot more memory than the PC in the future in my spec outs. And has Gigabit ethernet, though that won't matter in most cases.
One more reason to compare it to AMD, which can support more memory. Also, many motherboards, including the k8v deluxe I have, come with gigabit ethernet, although I'm not sure if I will ever use it.
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Doh! Its just dual 2400+ MP's. The other alienware workstations are Opterons and I overlooked that the dual one wasn't. Oh well, The dual opteron system would be more expensive.
<-- has a headache right now. And dual 2400+'s would be pretty hot and noisy, too .
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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One example with decent networking between PCs and Macs...
I own a couple macs. Both my apartment-mates own PC's. Currently, the internet runs through my tower. I have an ethernet card and a wireless ethernet card in the tower. I pick up local wireless, and tell my computer to Share the network over the land line. The ethernet cable connects to a hub, which is connected to _another_ hub, which connects to the two PC's (I have two hubs because we've had various set-ups which require various places to be the center with varying lengths of cable).
It's pretty decent, the only frustration is that my tower has to be on all the time. Last month, my ibook was serving internet the same way, but on the other end of the apartment (again, on the entire time). But since I wanted to use my iBook as a portable, I installed a wireless into my tower.
I've done network folder-sharing with PC's, though not often. I usually just set up an account on my computer if a friend wants to frequently access my computer (through ssh).
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The networking problems between Macs and PCs are not problems that are likely to affect the typical home user. Apple has bent over backwards to make interacting with a Windows WORKGROUP remarkably easy, so filesharing at home is a piece of cake -- and works fairly well.
In the process, they have completely broken the way Panther machines interact with a professional Windows network (on an Active Directory server); if you're looking to do more than just share files in folders -- like, say, actually authenticate to a network -- Panther is essentially useless.
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One of the ways I was providing internet was through the campus wireless connection. When you access the Univ's wireless, it redirects to a nocat server. When you logon, it gives you access to http, https, and ssh. This works for the 3 computers in my apartment. It seems that 1 of the three computers need to be logged in, but not every computer. Remember I use hubs, not routers. This likely means they all have the same IP, but i haven't actively checked.
You can use a VPN client to tunnel so more functions are available to you. However, we discovered that as soon as one person logs into VPN, the other computers stop working (though honestly, it's as soon as one PC does it, my Mac can't, and vice versa. The 3rd person wasn't home when we tested). Is this just because of how VPN and the Univ's wireless works, or is it a Mac/PC thing?
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While I'm not familiar with modern hub operation -- I'm a switch guy, myself -- I believe that Microsoft by design limits gateway access to multiple machines with the same IP when one of those machines has connected over VPN to a private network.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Its because of the way the hub interacts with the campus network. Hubs can produce some odd networking effects.
A hub just sends each packet to every computer hooked up to it.
Once you use the VPN client to tunnel, the campus network goes "oh, I'm using a VPN connection now" and starts sending packets that are part of the VPN connection only. Those packets go to all computers, but only the computer on VPN can decipher them.
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We'd use the university connection (we're all students, so we can each logon when needed), but one of the three of us is _very_ attached to AIM (and webaim seems to not work). It's a shame, since it's a much faster connection than what I'm using now.
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Mac users are giving him pointers (keyboard shortcuts, useful third-party tools, and so forth) rather than flaming him, which is good to see. I hope that lasts.
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I was just comparing a top-notch PC and a top-notch Apple. Maybe I should get an apple. One of the main Apple factories of the middle west coast is 3-4 miles from my house. Think I could ask for some leftover parts or something? 
