posted
Something that Valentine014 said in Hobbes' Conversion thread got me to thinking about a phenomenon I've been experiencing since childhood. Phenomenon might be too strong a word, but it's this feeling I get whenever I enter a place where people worship. Valentine said she felt completely at home in a Jewish Temple, and it made me think about how all my experiences with synogogues or churches have been the complete opposite -- I never feel more out-of-place or uneasy than when I'm in a church.
It's not a fear, or a feeling of dread...just this general feeling of "I don't like it here." And that might sound kind of ridiculous, "how could you feel uneasy in every holy house there is?" But i even noticed the feelings when I went on a high school trip to Germany -- we'd all pile inside various churches for tours and instantly I'd just want to get back out again.
Now, it's nothing akin to my sporadic claustrophobia -- which renders me completely hysterical and terrified -- it's more of like "I don't belong here, I want to leave."
I remember vividly experiencing these feelings as a young child as well, and I don't think I really understand it. My parents never really attended, though they did make an attempt for six months at a local UCC, but I never remember them telling us that church was stupid, or pointless, or a bad place to be, or anything of the sort. I've just, never liked them.
It's interesting to me to think that, at such an early age, I had an aversion to religious meeting spaces. I couldn't be more than six or seven in my earliest memories...I never remember having a single unpleasant event in any single church I've visited, so I don't know what could've triggered it.
I think it's kind of odd and wondering whether anyone else (i'm assuming this won't apply to believers of any sort) has this sort of aversion...?
posted
I don't know how many people here have been inside super-massive cathedrals, but I love cathedrals. I'm not religious but I love being inside them (although I'm always afraid someone will come along and throw me out for it although there's no way they could possibly know!). They are some of the most amazing and beautiful buildings I have ever seen.
posted
Oh, yes, Xavier...the catholic funeral I attended last year left me very unsettled, and not just because it was a funeral.
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posted
I used to have to drive past this pentecostal church every day. It was a big round, kinda dome shaped building with NO WINDOWS and just one door. On top, it has this stained glass encased upper room that always had a red light on in it. It freaked me out just driving past that place.
*shudders at the memory*
I'm just sure they were summoning demons in that upper room. SURE of it!
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posted
Yeah, my first was for my favorite cousin Danny who was only 23 when he died. My entire Mom's side of my family is catholic, so it was a very catholic funeral. I don't want to bash anyones faith, but it was probably the exact opposite of what I would have wanted for my funeral. Me and my bros were the only non-religious people there, and we immediately made each other promise that our funerals would not be like that.
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It was my cousin Brian's funeral, and he was only 25. Very Catholic, very, very, Very unlike how I'd want my funeral to be.
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posted
I think I need to set the scene a bit better for you..
I was invited to take part in an ongoing study group. This was at a Temple that my friend attends. I get there and I am instantly welcomed by various people who grab my hand and never let go. They all wanted to hear my "story", where I come from, who I know and what not. I am greeted with warm smiles and a mountain of bagels, they had me won over within seconds. The actual services were explained to me as we went along, because no one cares if you talk through it. So, I got a commentary of the Hebrew prayers and such. After services they proceeded to stuff me with more food and I was sad to leave. I wasn't hungry anymore, that was for sure, but that wasn't the only way I felt nourished.
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posted
I have always felt comfortable in my own church (I am a mormon), it has sort of a warm feeling about it. But when I visited a catholic church in tucson on easter, I felt like I shouldn't be there, everything seemed strange and...cold I suppose, it just didn't feel right to me.
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posted
Also, there was a wooden statue of a preist who had founded the church set on a table, people would rub the head of the staue and...pray, I suppose, while rubbing ther own heads. I asked a catholic friend what that was all about and he said he had never seen anything like that before in his life.
I also noticed how everyone would light candles and place them on a table, all of these things just seemed odd and somewhat empty to me.
I am not trying to criticize catholic beliefs, merely describing what I felt while I was there.
I did like the architecture and beauty of the building, but it seemed like I shouldn't be there.
I suppose if I was walking around it alone and appreciating the building I wouldn't have felt this way, but being that there were many people walking around and doing the things I described above it was kind of odd.
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posted
Sometime I'd like a chance to see inside and LDS Temple before it becomes closed to those without recommends.
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posted
I’ve only had one experience in a church that felt “gloomy.” That was in the Cathedral of St. Paul (the one in St. Paul, MN). But since Catholic churches seem to be getting the brunt of it here, I should say that I’ve had many welcoming, wonderful experiences in Catholic churches, convents, and monasteries. In this case, I think it was the architecture, more than any spiritual gloominess. Well, maybe complicated by the fact that my boyfriend’s mother was whispering the whole time about how it would be great if we got married there. And it seemed to me that since I was actually active in church and his family went to church once a year on Easter, maybe we should get married in my church. Which had nice light wood walls and lots of windows. And a clergy person and congregation I actually knew.
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posted
fugu, don't know if you're interested, but this site shows which temples have upcoming open houses if you'd like to tour them.
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posted
It's possible to forge recommends too. I found a website that teaches you how to get into temples when you're not even mormon. It takes some doing, but you can get away with it if you REALLY want to.
I wouldn't, but it's possible.
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While I might consider some of the LDS Church's restrictions wrong and counterproductive, I am not about to violate those sanctions forcefully, as any entry into a Temple would be.
Unless, you know, they're keeping some really good cheese in there. I obey the power of cheese.
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quote: It's possible to forge recommends too. I found a website that teaches you how to get into temples when you're not even mormon. It takes some doing, but you can get away with it if you REALLY want to.
Of course it's possible to forge recommends, if that's something that people really want to do, they can do it. Although whether or not you believe in mormonism or not, you know what is right and wrong, don't expect that you will be unaccountable for things you do.
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posted
See, I'm exactly the opposite. I love being in religious buildings, but hate being around religious ceremonies. An empty cathedral is literally Heaven.
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posted
Ya know, the reason Leonide feels so uncomfortable in religious places might be because she's demonspawn. Check for horns, tails, numbers of the beast, etc. There might be pentagrams near her bed, as well.
She's probably not alone, either. I bet celia gets uncomfortable in places of worship. Holy water likely leaves burn marks on her.
posted
I really couldn't imagine feeling too uncomfortable in my church. It feels pretty much like a school, actually, except simpler, more open, and with more windows. Definitely not gloomy.
The one place that I'd feel uncomfortable is standing at the altar itself, but even that isn't much. For one thing they have a carving of Christ in the wall with a "Come to me my children" sort of open arms, which makes it difficult for it to feel too inaccessable.
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posted
See, the funny thing is, about two years back I taught a children's Youth Choir at a local Lutheran church (i think only because they really needed someone and didn't really delve into my personal beliefs...) And they always got it decorated up for the holidays, even had a Nativity play that I helped out with...but even with all those kids there, even with the decorations, I never felt comfortable.
And i should clarify again, this isn't a dread. I have felt frightened in churches, but only dark empty ones And i don't feel like i have to leave or I'll die or something bad will happen to me. Like God with smote my ruin upon the mountainside, or something crazy like that. Just like "okay, time to leave."
And during services, like Tom said, it's even more pronounced. I can't stand them...i've never been to a service that I haven't zoned out of or desperately, desperately wanted to get out of. Even as a youngster, even before I became an atheist, even when I still believed there was a God...I could not deal with church services. So maybe that and my dislike of religious buildings go hand-in-hand.
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ya know, the reason Leonide feels so uncomfortable in religious places might be because she's demonspawn. Check for horns, tails, numbers of the beast, etc. There might be pentagrams near her bed, as well.
See, now, if you had written "inverted pentagram," that would have been correct.
And, TomDavidson is hilarious.
I always felt bored by most religious ceremonies of the Christian denomination. I've been to Catholic Masses (I don't believe in all the pomp and circumstance, but I liked the anecdotes, whether or not I believed them), Presbyrterian services (BORING!). The only services I felt uncomfortable were the fellowship ones at my college, which is supposedly non-denominational, but is really more Baptist (eek) or Penecostal (Slash---there really are demons in there). That scares me. Those that knew I was Pagan continually disrespected me and insulted me with their methods of "conversion."
Maybe you were killed by the church in a previous life, Leonide.
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As I noted, I would not forge my way into a mormon temple. Not because of any fear of repurcussion, but just out of politeness.
Your semi veiled threats about 'accountability' won't mean a darn thing to someone who would be willing to sneak into a temple. Do you honestly believe that someone with so little respect for your faith is going to worry that your god will smite them for profaning the temple? It seems unlikely to me. Posts: 5383 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote: Do you honestly believe that someone with so little respect for your faith is going to worry that your god will smite them for profaning the temple?
quote: although whether or not you believe in mormonism or not, you know what is right and wrong, don't expect that you will be unaccountable for things you do.
No, I highly doubt that they would expect MY God to smite them. I am saying that because they know what is right and wrong, regardless of religion, it is THIER God they should be worried about, as this is obviously something wrong to do.
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posted
This has also got me thinking about why I became a witch.
I started studying Paganism ten years ago from a book my aunt gave my mother. A year later, I went to Catholic school, and, in an effort to "fit in," I tried to be "catholic." Then later, I decided I didn't like it and went back to studying witchcraft. I felt guilty all the while. Then I went to public school, where, ironically, the pressure to be a Christian was more great. I switched back and forth between the two faiths, and at one point blended them. I was never comfortable.
Finally, in August of 1999, my parents went away for a few days. I was 17, and had to work, so they left me home alone. Those 3 days of quiet was all I needed to decide what I really believed in---no one was there to pressure me otherwise, not my mother or sister (Paganism), not my schoolmates (Christianity).
I became a Pagan, and have never looked back. I don't regret my decision, and have been happier because of that. Being a Christian made me blame myself for my misfortune and feel guilty for the pleasures I partook in. As a Witch, I feel balanced. I understand that some of my misfortunes are my own fault, but some are just happenings, unpreventable happenings that good may come out of. I don't feel guilty for being human and partaking in pleasures the church deems sinful. This not to say I am unrestricted--I don't do anything that will harm my health.
But I've never been happier or so firm in my spiritual beliefs.
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posted
I was not saying "God will smite you", I'm saying that it might not look good on your record when God is judging you in the afterlife, and sees that you tried to desicrate something sacred to millions of people.
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I doubt that people who forge their way into sacred religious places for fun have a lot of qualms about what god might or might not like. Not everyone believes in god you know. I would guess this group falls into the 'not believe' category.
I read their description of one of their temple invasions. They did it on a lark. I doubt their right and wrong detectors are as finely honed as you might hope.
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posted
With me, it just depends on the place. Some churches feel horrible, and some like perfect sanctuaries. The best holy place I've ever been (aside from outside in woods, where everything is perfect) was a little chapel placed above a library. It was at a retreat center where I'd gone on silent retreat and Sister Ruth showed it to me-a tiny little place that I could barely stand upright in without hitting the ceiling, but it was perfect. A bible in a corner, windows on all the walls that you could see trees in, and just warm, welcoming, silent and safe. I loved it
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posted
Starla*, I think your the first person I've ever heard call themself a Pagan. I've always heard Wiccan. Are they the same, or completely different?
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posted
Well, they are similar--kinda like most of the Protestant faiths in the Christian church are similar.
Wicca sort of has this flaky connotation---but that's not why I don't call myself a Wiccan. Wicca is a specific branch in the spirituality of Witchcraft/Paganism. In Wicca, the rules are not as strict as others, like Ceremonial or Druidic. In Wicca, you are free to choose your pantheon of Gods and Goddesses, and mix and match as you please.
A lot of "purists," I'll call them, make fun of that and look down upon it. They think it's kind of bunny-fluffy. They feel like someone should join a coven (another thing Wicca doesn't hafta have), or have a specific pantheon (Northern Mysteries, Dianic, Strega, Seax-Wita, Gardernarian, Pica-Wita, etc).
I call myself a Pagan, because I don't agree with the purists, and I don't like the mish-mash of Wicca. I don't have a specific pantheon--I have a God and a Goddess, who are more or less just the aspects of the Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine that occurs everywhere. I guess you can call them personifications.
A while ago, an acquaintance of mine said "I don't like you kind" or something along those lines when I mentioned I was an eclectic pagan. It was because I had no pantheon. I told her I just hadn't found one I was comfortable with, and she was like, oh, that's okay. Then I realized, hey, I don't want a pantheon! I'm not pagan to please you! I'm pagan because it makes me happy and I believe I can help the Mother and Father! I don't need some ancient pantheon of Gods and Goddesses I can't even relate to!
So, that's why. It's like calling yourself a Christian, rather than a Methodist.
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quote:I've been to Catholic Masses (I don't believe in all the pomp and circumstance, but I liked the anecdotes, whether or not I believed them),
Sometimes I take Mass for granted, but when I really pay attention to it and all the symbolism, it overawes me on several levels.
First, knowing that there's almost a billion people celebrating the same Mass as I am that week.
Second, when I really pay attention to the Eucharistic prayer, the momentousness of it all is breathtaking. Paying attention isn't really the right word - it's more like when I let my mind really participate. It's very hard to explain, and even harder to explain to someone who doesn't believe in transubstantiation.
I just find it beautiful when the pomp and circumstance stop being pomp and circumstance and start being preparation for standing in the presence of the Lord.
quote:I love being in religious buildings, but hate being around religious ceremonies. An empty cathedral is literally Heaven.
My feelings exactly...
Actually, I suppose there are some religious ceremonies I greatly appreciate and would wish to participate in -- however, not any time before noon. Posts: 1295 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
I remember visiting a particular building of reverence for a faith other than my own. I was with a friend, and my friend seemed to feel very uncomfortable, whereas I found the whole thing very fascinating.
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Perhaps it is all the symbolism that makes you uncomfortable. I know that bothers me, even though I do attend church regularly. I have a hard time with church buildings that are really ornate, etc. I don't like to feel like I'm worshipping crosses or pictures or stuff (even though I KNOW they aren't really worshipping that stuff -- it is just everywhere in some churches). I know 1) we don't know what Jesus really looked liked -- there were no photographs or paintings from anyone at the time he was alive -- so every time I see a stained glass window depicting him, or a painting, it makes me cringe for some reason. 2) Many symbols, as we know, have some pagan origin, like it or not.
The church I attend now is extremely simple. Not many decorations to speak of, one large cross above the speaker's area, but it is usually covered with the big screen used to display music lyrics, announcements, etc. I like to keep things simple because although I attend church, I still feel closest to God NOT in church, but outdoors, when I'm with nature.
I have been inside a Mormon temple (no, I'm not Mormon -- it was before the temple dedication after they built the new one in OKC) -- and it was beautiful and all that, but I didn't feel "worshipful" in it. It was too glitzy for my simple worship tastes, I guess. But I know there are those who feel somehow more motivated by all the elaborate symbolism, and I think it is just a matter of personal taste and worship style.
I'm glad there is a variety in this country, so all worship needs can be met.
posted
FG, my mom is like that; she says if there were another protestant faith she'd choose, she'd choose Episcopalian because of symbolism and ritual.
As for my home church, it's a wonderful example of the spartan Congregationalist church. Old organ, beautiful acoustics, uncomfortable pews It has stain glass (which they changed for the worse recently, in my aesthetic opinion) and a large cross behond the raised pulpit. But the walls are all whitewashed, and there are just some simple flower arrangements on a table below the pulpit. It's simple, austere, and solemn.
The liturgy has always been conservative; no rock or modern-type music. That has always added a sense of solemnity, and a connection to the previous 200+ years of people who have worshipped in the church, who sang largely the same hymns. While I can't say much about Communion like Dagonee, since my church believes it is a memorial, there is little that excites me more than singing the Doxology at the top of my lungs in that church.
posted
When I'm in a church I get very calm, soft-spoken, quiet, shy, etc. Very unlike my normal persona. I feel like I should be, not because I particularly care about the religion, but when I was little and went to church that was how I had to act and I suppose it's a little ingrained. Cathedrals, on the other hand, are amazing. It's not something that can really be described. I've actually been lucky enough to sing in a number of cathedrals over seas and wow, that's how that music was supposed to sound.
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