posted
I love that people who think $50,000 of debt is rediculous to assume have no problem asking thier parents to assume it for them.
I don't think that anyone deserves to go to college. Whether or not your parents pay for it is completely up to them. If they do offer to pay for it, you should accept the terms or not take the money. I would hope that the terms would be reasonable, like kat's parents', but it's their money, they can set whatever they want.
Like any aspect of parenting, there should be a clearly defined set of rules and consequences. If one of those rules is "go to the church I tell you to" that may not sound fair, but you're taking their money.
Have they changed FAFSA? When I was applying it was really difficult to claim yourself as an independent.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
It's STILL really difficult. When Christy and I became serious, her dad cut her off completely -- and without any warning -- which left us scrambling to find a way to fund her education. It was especially frustrating because her dad's income was still considered HER income for the purposes of aid, despite the fact that he had no intention whatsoever of sending her anything.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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In my family it was *expected* that we go to college.
However I also saw any money coming from my parents as having huge strings attached. Fortunately I was a National Merit Scholar and was able to go to a state school for free and actually get a stipend.
My parents paid less having me in college than they did having me live at home. The total sum of their expenditures was my car insurance, and about $200 in groceries at the beginning of each semester. They also may have paid for about $1000 in health care costs.
Now I always heard my mother complain about making ends meet growing up. I *thought* my family was poor and barely scraping by. In reality they were doing just fine and putting lots into savings. When I got a job so that I didn't ever have to ask my mother for spending money, my parents had a hissy. In hindsight again, it had everything to do with them wanting to maintain control and keep me dependent and nothing actually to do with finances.
I didn't really want my parents to contribute anything to my college education that gave them leverage over my decision making.
I fully intended, if I didn't get any scholarships, on getting a job and only going to school part time if that was all I could afford. I'm an extremely big proponent of community colleges as well and I attended one.
I think if a parent is willing to contribute because they value education it is one thing, when there are strings it is an entirely different ball of wax.
I also believe that education is a priveledge not a right.
posted
Well, my parents (Father and stepmother) not only refused to contribute (mack - are you my twin?) they also shot down the whole idea of a BA - in anything. Unless it was something they chose. But no money to help, period. Whether I did what they wanted me to or not. AND, they got pissed off when I got my taxes in before they did as an independent filer. I figured I had supported my own self for the previous year, I was over 19 and I was entitled to claim myself.
I did like mack did - worked my butt off and used a combination of work study, scholarships, loans. No job was too little or awful. No matter who for - as long as they paid me.
It wasn't uncommon for me to work three different part-time jobs while still maintaining a 3.8 GPA AND (most importantly - when I returned to college to finish my degree) raising a child with a lot of special needs.
So, it can be done - and I don't think ANYONE is obligated to put anyone else through college, nor buy them a vehicle, nor pay for any other little bit of it once they hit legal age of responsibility (18, no?) and are competent to care for themselves.
Quite frankly, it was the students who were sacrificing and scraping to get by, that made the best and most conscientious students. The ones that were there on mom and dad's dime really didn't seem to give a rat's a** - and I attended both public and private colleges. Back east and in the west. And observed the same attitude and lack of concern - pretty appalling. (To me)
I don't know - my father was raised on a teensy tiny farm in Wyoming. They had clothes, food and a home. They had an education. They had (most importantly) each other. They worked hard. His day started and ended with farm chores. The bus stop really was a few miles away (and try walking in 60 below zero - it isn't a lot of fun) and expectations for homework and class performance were very high (drama in those days consisted of Greek tragedies, not musicals) and the students designed and built the sets and costumes.
Oh well - I'll stop. This is beginning to sound like the old crank of "we walked uphill in freezing rain both ways" kind of stories -
but I think it's important to note that the last few generations have had it EASY! We don't have to actually grow and process the grain that makes our bread. We don't actually have to plant, cultivate and harvet the food we eat. We don't have to shear the sheep and prepare the wool and then sew our own clothes. In addition to such mundane items as going to school and doing well.
Quite frankly - with all the advantages we have, I'd expect that our country would top the list of success stories in education, poverty, health care, etc.
Something's not right.
*shakes head in dismay and wanders off, leaving the can open so the worms acan crawl in and out*
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Mac's post brings up something that I think a lot of young people (not likely the types of brilliant folks posting on hatrack, but other young people) seem to have a real problem with: delayed gratification.
I post that as I sit here with a laptop that is propped up with pillows because the hinge is broken and the screen won't stay up. I say that as I look up at my television in a $120 pressboard entertainment center we put together ourselves back when we lived in our old 2 bedroom house. We've been talking about getting some nice cherry finish furniture like an entertainment armoire and bookshelves but six years after moving in the house we haven't goten them yet, because everytime we had the money it was needed somewhere else more important than new furniture.
I know people who would have bought a new laptop and new furniture (probably on one of those no interest, no payment for a year plans that balloon to 23% interest after your 12 months is up) and probably would be driving a van right now that didn't have 112,000 miles on it like mine does.
The amount of debt some people have would make me throw up. Heck, the amount of debt we have makes me want to throw up. I get sick when I think about it, how we racked up so much debt. Even though a lot of it wasn't our fault, in that we had to try and recover from a financial crisis caused by an employee that stole money from the business and didn't pay creditors, then hid the notices from them so it was several months in before my husband found out that the suppliers he assumed were current, were in fact way behind (and finance charges were tacked on, naturally). Long story, some of you know it. The last time all his accounts with his suppliers were current was the month before we hired this guy. That was 18 months ago. We've been trying to catch up since, and this month we should do it.
Now, back to topic - we are not putting away a lot for college right now. It is our intention however, to assist our kids by paying tuition and books. We will encourage them to save money for room and board and other expenses, when each one gets old enough they will be able to work summers and earn money. I don't want them working part time while they are in school (high school) because I want them focusing on their education.
Bottom line - we consider it our obligation as parents to give them the opportunity for a college education. But, with four children, we can't afford to send them all to private schools, especially considering we have three kids who will be in college at the same time! If they want to live at home and attend a public university, we will pay tuition and books. If they want to attend a private school or if they want to go to college away from home, then they'll have to provide some of the costs themselves, through scholarships or working.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:Bottom line - we consider it our obligation as parents to give them the opportunity for a college education.
I really quite agree with this statement. As I said before, if parents definitely have the extra cash, then this is how it should be spent. Parents who don't, can do what they can.
It's funny. My mother is an everything-for-your-children kind of person, raised in a culture that really believes in that, the sacrifice-everything-for-your-child. And I agree, even though I don't see myself having children. If I do have a child, I would definitely see it as an obligation to provide for their education to the best of my ability.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Reading this makes me count my lucky stars that I'm at the school with the best coop program on the planet. Sure, I get no time off a year and my degree takes me 5 years rather than 4, but I also come out with 2 years of quality work experience and will probably have turned a small profit over the 5 years it will have taken me to get my degree. Coop at Waterloo has been the most intense love/hate relationship so far in my life.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
This is a real interesting thread -- and I think there is no universally right answer, since so many people and situations are so different.
In my family as well, it is just "understood" that you go to college. Everyone in our family has. In fact, with my Bachelor's degree, I'm the lowest degreed person in the family.
However, my kids also know that mom is poor -- single parent of three kids with no child support. So they have understood early on that if they want college it will be through their own achievements.
My oldest got the nearly full-tuition scholarship. I do help him pay for books -- but he helps me pay for household expenses. We kind of throw our money all into one pot. He has a part-time job. He does get help through FAFSA, and this DID limit his choice of colleges - obviously you go with whatever one offers you the best scholarship...
My second son plans to go to a trade school that is relatively inexpensive. (vo-tech).
My daughter will probably be the biggest worry financially, depending on what she can pull in scholarships. Becoming a vet is many more years and much expense. She is planning on getting a job this summer (she's 14) to start saving. She is very level-headed and I think will find a way to achieve her goals regardless of whether or not I can come up with the money for it.
quote: Well, my parents (Father and stepmother) not only refused to contribute (mack - are you my twin?) they also shot down the whole idea of a BA - in anything.
Refusal to contribute is refusing any rights they may have to decide what you study, IMO.
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
My parents told us how much they could afford to help us each year. After that, we are supposed to pay other expenses. I got a scholarship to pay all my tuition, so I only have books and living expenses. My sister wants to go out of state-but she's a national merit finalist, so she's got several full scholarships if she chooses to take them. Neither of us are planning on any debt whatsoever.
Then funny thing is that all the people at my father's work think mom and dad are horribly unparently for telling us that we have to move out during the school term, and can only live at home on holidays Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
I think it is nice for parents to support their kids educational endeavors in some way. If that support is not financial in nature due to lower income, fine. Parents can only do what they can.
But I am still trying to wrap my brain around Suneun's suggestion that folks who are upper middle class ought to pay each child's 20000+ tuition. I don't really know what salary upper middle class folks have, I guess.
$80,000 minimum per child just seems...way, way too much to expect of one's parents. Unless they make a LOT of money. They need to be setting up their retirement and have lots of other bills to pay too. I don't agree that kids NEED to spend that much money for a college education, it's an option, sure. An option that if they really really want then they can help pay for it or take out loans for it. If they aren't willing to, then they can look into where they can get scholarships or look at state schools. How many people actually need to spend that much money to get a good education or to apply for grad school? I had a friend in medschool whose parents paid for her entire four years of out of state college tuition PLUS her medical school tuition plus her medschool credit cards and 1/2 her rent. She complained constantly about her lack of money and had no appreciation whatsoever about her parents' sacrifices. Now she makes more money then they do. Is she planning to pay them back at all? Nope. She expected them to help her so why should she pay it back, she says.
I know I didn't need to pick out an Ivy League school to get what I needed out of college. I got into medschool without any problems and frankly I am glad I chose the cheaper option. My parents had an agreed upon plan to give each child $1000 per semester for four years so long as we were enrolled. How far that money went depended on us. I lived at home, got scholarships, and basically paid maybe $200 tuition per semester max, plus books. I got free room and board ONLY because I was a fulltime student. Otherwise I would have had to pay rent. That was carefully explained to me before I graduated high school. In return I helped out around the house and drove my mom and brother around when they needed a lift. Oh, I did have 100% use of a family car but was mainly because my mom was blind and so my ability to take her and my brother to appointments and shopping and stuff and basically clear my dad's car for his use alone was helpful to the family. I do admit I might have been better off living in the dorm and making some friends rather than living at home and remaining practically friendless and very isolated during college. But that was my choice. And at the end of college I had enough money socked away to buy myself a nice new little car that lasted 10 years before I traded it in.
My dad is a college professor. His salary is at the very low end since he is not a phd. When my mom casually commented once that the only reason he worked every summer session was to pay for our college education it really hit me hard. Every day he went to work in the summertime instead of taking time off for his side interests was basically my fault. I had a very hard time dealing with that. How do other college kids who get monetary support NOT feel ashamed and humbled at least a little bit by their parents' sacrifices? Like my friend in medschool. It IS a big deal to most parents.
Of note, there were a lot of first generation Asians in medschool with me and we used to sit around and talk about parental support. They all told me Asian parents work their fingers to the bone, if necessary, to avoid taking out any loans. They weren't sure why. Suneun, do you think part of your opinion is cultural? Just curious.
Posts: 1990 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
The town I grew up in, everyone went to college. The best one they could get into. Which for many people was an expensive private school in the $30-40,000 range. And the parents all paid, from money that they had been saving up for the kid's entire life. If someone's parents had refused to pay for school, we would have been shocked. My parents wrote a check for my entire four year education at a private liberal arts college when I started college.
I think it might be a cultural thing. I come from a very Jewish town that considered educating your child a parental responsibility that did not end when they turned 18.
Don't know if that's right or wrong, just offering another experience.
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
To be honest, I've always considered that kind of giving to be excessive, and to border on "spoiling" a child.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I consider it my parental duty to pay for my childrens' entire educations (at the schools of their choice, studying whatever they want), up through and including graduate school. Andrew does, as well.
Not only is it my duty, but it's my pleasure.
A good education is one of the greatest assets I can give my child. It is a necessity in today's job market and certainly will be when my (future) children enter the job market.
As to private schools versus public... I went to a prestigious private school and got an excellent education. Do I think that you can get an excellent education at a public school? Absolutely. Andrew went to public schools for undergrad, law, and graduate schools and he is frighteningly well-educated (even over-educated ). However, having an Ivy League school on my resume opens doors for me. I have never been turned down for a job or even had a job search last for more than 2 weeks. It's a lifelong free pass to the front of the line. I'll probably encourage my children to go to a private school so that they can have the same opportunities in their professional lives that I have had in mine.
Maybe it is a Jewish cultural thing, because I have never heard of a Jewish family not paying (or trying as hard as they could to pay) for their childrens' educations.
Posts: 3037 | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Earlier in the thread I said that it's good for parents to pay for as much of their kid's education as possible, but shouldn't be mandatory...just a nice guesture (sp?).
Since then Jesse and I have spoken about it and we came up with a good compromise which will serve as our plan for now. We plan to pay for the child's first year, and allow them our home to stay if they choose as long as they are still attending. That would give them time to get adjusted to school life, get a job to help and do their best to get in a good position to get financial aid, if possible. After the first year, the only support they will receive is room and board, and the rest of the expense is up to them. (I say this because in many places it's not that hard to get paid education. In Georgia, if you maintain a B average they will pay for you to go to most of the schools in that state.)
This is obviously up for revision because I'm sure nothing will work out as neatly as we plan. For example, if one of our kids is taking a difficult major, and is getting good grades, but isn't making enough to pay for all their tuition, or can't work full time AND maintain their grades, there could probably be some more give on our side.
I consider college years a very important time in a person's life, where they should be able to make adult decisions, but still, their main resposibilities should be getting an education and having a chance to solidify their skills in most areas that concern adults (I said MOST ) such as money management, etc.
I am open to anything our kids want to study, and if they choose not to attend college, we'll decide at that time how to handle the money we saved for their first year. (Maybe a wedding gift, investment, business capital or some other way...but I probably won't hand it over in cash.)
Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I do think it's largely cultural. That, stereotypically, Asian and Jewish cultures both support completely paying for the child's education. But I don't think it's a bad idea.
Again, I don't think it's necessary for the parent to go into debt to help the child pay for college. I'm somewhat circuitously defining upper-middle class as the kind of people who have the money to pay for a private college tuition with no loans.
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Just curious, is there a typical number of children in Asian and Jewish families?
Steve's parents viewed college education as important but they were both teachers. They wanted him to go to college, but fully expected him to take out loans to pay for it just like they did.
He got a tuition waiver for his schooling and is only about 20K in debt after 5 years of engineering school.
I did take out a $10K loan when I got to grad school, mainly because I was tired of scrimping every penny and worrying about paying the bills. Once you make it to grad school they stop looking at your parents income information. The amount that the FAFSA expected my parents to contribute before that point was horrendous, nearly 1/3 of my father's income and I didn't qualify for loans. They really don't take into acount any other dependents at home that will be going in to college in the near future in their equations.
I would have felt extremely guilty making my parents pay that much, even though they saved quite a bit in order to pay for our college educations. If I had truly wanted to go to an Ivy League school and not gotten a scholarship, they would have found a way to have me go, but it would have involved likely taking out a second mortgage on the house.
Also to my knowledge college loan debt is not viewed as "bad" debt on your credit report. It may contribute to some of the aggregate scores but most of the places who give loans understand that the payments are low etc and that the interest is a tax write-off. The only thing that makes college debt bad, is if you default on you loans and that is really, really bad.
I do think that many college students who have mommy and daddy pay for everything have money managment and delayed gratification issues.
A good friend of mine is Bengali. All of her apartment bills were sent to her father instead of her. When she actually got a job and lived in an apartment on her own, she was totally overwhelmed by the routine of paying utility bills that I didn't even blink twice at. I literally talked her through bill paying a couple times before she got the hang of it. To me that isn't preparing your child for the future whatsoever. (This particular friend didn't have delayed gratification issues but I know others who did.)
On delayed gratification I'm of the mind if you want your fun now, know that you are going to pay for it in the long run. I didn't mind when Steve bought his Eclipse Spyder GTS. In hindsight, I suspect I had a better idea of what chunk the monthly car payment was going to take out of our finances than he did. But I knew we could afford it at the same time. I still don't regret that we bought that car. It would have been nice if we could have bought the identical used car that the dealers had on their lot, but because we were fresh out of college with NO credit it was easier to qualify for new car financing than used car financing. (We then refinanced down to a low interest rate after their 0% interest grace periond was over.)
I have made him promise that he will keep it for at least one year (though I'd prefer more) after the loan is paid off, so that we can put the money into savings that otherwise would have gone to car payments.
On the other hand delayed gratification is so beaten in to me, that I (until recently) never bought clothes for myself unless my blue jeans were disintegrating from use. And so Steve and some jatraqueros have had to undertake an intervention, that I never would have really thought about on my own.
posted
From personal experience, i think korean families generally run 2-4 in the US. I guess I could look up statss.....
Posts: 1892 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I do wish my family felt some sort of impetus to help with grad school, even if it was only covering things like plane tickets home and health insurance. I asked my dad once, when I was nearing graduation from college, and he said, quote, "Katie, I am not the de Medicis."
Great. Blunt, insightful, funny, and educated. And coming from someone whose parents' big present for college graduation was loaning him the money for the plane ticket to Houston, to start his first job.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
My family had three children. If each of us had cost 45K for school that would be over $130K to get all three children through college. Considering that this is probably half of the value of their house I think it would be excessive to actually spend that much. Yes one kid might need more financial help than another. Right now both of my brothers work summer jobs beach lifeguarding that pay very well.
However I actually had to tell the one, that is the L.A. County Lifeguard that he shouldn't take the job with the most income this summer, but should apply for engineering internships instead, since those will be far more valuable in his future career. I told him this, expecting that my parents will probably have to make up the difference in subsidizing his schooling, even though they never had to do something like that for me.
I went to school in an area with a much lower cost of living which made a huge difference.
posted
I also think I had more incentive to be independent compared to my brothers, because of all the strings that they attached to my behavior that haven't been attached to my brothers behaviors.
The last year my parents claimed me as a dependent they had to do a bit of "fancy math" to actually justify that I was a dependent, since they really didn't contribute half of my expenses, which was the government criteria for a dependent. They were actually making money on me the last couple of years as far as the tax break they got vs. the amount they actually contributed to my expenses. They were a little miffed when I said I was claiming myself independent the year after.
quote: That, stereotypically, Asian and Jewish cultures both support completely paying for the child's education.
I don't think that's been true in the Jewish community for at least a generation.
quote: I'm somewhat circuitously defining upper-middle class as the kind of people who have the money to pay for a private college tuition with no loans.
What about the fact that the parents are "borrowing against" their future?
I got help from my parents, but never expected them to pay for college. Same for my brothers.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Theca, I really liked reading what you wrote. That describes clearly how I feel about paying for my children's education, but you said it so much better.
Amusingly enough, my 10 year old son brought this up while I was driving him to school this morning. He asked me how long I thought he should live with us in our house. I told him that after he graduates high school, he'll need to have made some decisions about that -- go to college, or get a job. Because once he graduates high school, it will either be full time study or pay market value room and board. He was surprised to hear that he didn't *have* to go to college. It was a fun conversation...one I look forward to having with him more as he gets older. He just gets more and more interesting as he gets older. *fond mommy smile*
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
There are 6 siblings in my family. My eldest sister graduated with a bachelor's in 1988; my brother graduates in May. The three oldest were all in college for one year; for most of the time there were at least two.
There's no way my parents could pay for all our expenses for college, even with us all going to state schools (which are VERY good in Virginia). However, they helped a lot and even helped pay off loans for my younger sister when she became a teacher.
I worked every break (Winter, Spring, Summer), took no vacations, and spent very little in college. I saved every single penny I made for living expenses in college and/or tuition. I usually paid Fall tuition, rent, and other living expenses and Spring rent and living expenses.
But I managed to graduate with little debt. I could not have started my business if I had been carrying any more debt, since I had no discretionary income for the first two years or so.
I do remember my oldest sister once saying that if my parents hadn't had more than two kids, they could have paid her way through school and she wouldn't have had to work so hard.
Being the third child you can imagine how I felt.
Dagonee P.S., fortunately, I am paying for law school with no debt and will be able to establish college funds for my children before they're born. And I'm happy to do so. See - happy.
posted
"I'm somewhat circuitously defining upper-middle class as the kind of people who have the money to pay for a private college tuition with no loans."
This would in fact be my definition of "rich," since the average private school now costs around $20,000 a year.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
I think Jewish families vary a lot in size. I know ones as large as 12, and same with 0 or 1 kids.
Again, I think my parents felt like paying for my education was a good investment, and something they felt morally obliged to do. I have a sister and all of our schooling probably cost them close to $400,000. (About $10-$12,000 a year for grade school, and about $30-40,000 for college.) So a whole lot of money.
Now I am in grad school, and I pay my own expenses, 100% (with the help of a fellowship).
Posts: 134 | Registered: Apr 2003
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