quote:the last thing i need is to go to church every sunday and having people tell me i need to restrain myself from life so i will become less of a sinner
We've been having a ton of discussions about how religion affects *other* people lately, and this comment got me thinking about how your religion affects *you*. My sister said this to me as we were talking about her not being able to end up with her Catholic boyfriend because she would have to convert, and she wouldn't be able to do that. (My sister is currently a junior in high school, so this was a completely hypothetical conversation. Please do me a favor and don't rip apart her statment because it will make me mad. Thank you .)
Anyway. My question to Hatrack is this: have you ever felt restrained by your religion? I don't mean "oh, well, I don't drink alcohol, and it's a restraint I accept willingly because it's God's command." I mean have you ever seriously disagreed with something your church felt was right (or wrong)? Have you, for instance, wanted to get a divorce in a church where this is not acceptable? Or an abortion? Or wear a short skirt? Or have pre-marital sex?
Or even.....forget about all those negative things.
Basically, have you ever resented your religion for prohibiting you from doing something you felt would enrich your life somehow? I think what my sister was getting at here was that there's some things you just have to do with reckless abandon -- like falling in love, and dancing. Stuff that she felt was stifled by this particular religion.
Have you ever felt that way?
[ March 09, 2004, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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quote:there's some things you just have to do with reckless abandon -- like falling in love, and dancing
I agree about the dancing, but I must be some kind of anti-romantic. I think that falling in love with reckless abandon is a recipe for trouble. Go in with both eyes open and *think* about what you are doing.
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I used to feel restrained in not being able to accept homosexuals. After a few years of thinking they might change, the church affirmed a traditional view of the family. I struggled with this for a few more years. Then I decided I was going to take it on faith. A while after I had a spiritual insight, which can't really be put in words, on the matter.
Sure, I make a lot of arguments here on the forum, but none of those are my real reason for believing that people need members of the opposite sex.
Also, I dated a guy who wasn't LDS when I was younger. 17-18. But mainly I was angry that God wasn't forcing this guy to convert to my religion.
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Hmm, well I guess since I don't have a religion, I don't have to worry about being restrained by it...
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Yes. Struggling with some issues now. I think I'm gonna be ok, though
One of the big things I've discovered recently is that *I* am much harder on myself than my church is...and as a Roman Catholic, I belong to a pretty strict church. Learning toforgive and accept myself has been invaluable and actually makes it much easier to be obedient (though I'm still not entirely so).
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I used to be repressed by my religion... It caged certain aspects of my thinking too much. There were too many things i didn't agree with, that I thought were rather, well, unnessasary. Like not eating pork or shellfish, my relatives habit of seeing the devil in EVERYTHING. Not being able to watch certain programs, being told what books to read, not to mention a difference in point of view. I just did not understand WHY gayness was thought of to be a sin. So I shook it off. Now I have my OWN brand of spirituality that works for me.
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quote: and as a Roman Catholic, I belong to a pretty strict church.
Analog, how would you say that it is a strict church. I spent some time in Brazil, and the impression I got there was the it was the least strict of all the churches around.
But then, my schoolmates that were Catholic did seem to live in a more strict fashion than most protestants.
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I think you'll find your question may begin having answers divided into two different groups of people:
Those that are involved in a religion solely out of obligation or family tradition
Those that are involved in a religion because they personally believe it is guided by divine Truth.
Those in the former will probably feel a lot more constrained by the 'rules' and 'regulations', because they see no more reason to do so besides 'My Religion Says So', and if they can find no logic in these rules, think they're archaic and restrictive, and think that the world has 'moved on' since people originally wrote them down, and that they live in an 'enlightened age' where we know much better now, and are free to pick and choose what rules we follow, because this religion may or may not be true anyway, so what's the point? Those in the latter group would probably be specifically CHOOSING to follow what many see as restrictions based on their own Faith. While some may seem to be an inconvenience, they have full belief in their Divinely Revealed Truth, and trust that everything set down in their religion has been done for a purpose, and is for the better good. While it may be difficult to resist temptation to disobey the commandments, inside, you know that you'd be better off not doing so.
So my hypothesis is that those who truly believe their Religion to be True are much less apt to consider themselves 'Restricted' than those who attend for other purposes.
Because if you don't believe or strive to obey the doctrines set forth by your chosen religion - why would you profess to be a member of that religion in the first place?
posted
I agree with Taalcon. When I was in high school, my religion chaffed me pretty badly. But after I really chose it for myself, I do not feel constrained.
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I decided long ago that I act on my own judgement, not the churches. God is divine, but the church is a man-made institution, and thus (as far as I'm concerned) as fallible as any. If God tells me something, that's one thing, but the church is quite another. I think that while faith is important, so is logic. We were given the ability to think and choose for a reason-and to suspend that ability because the church tells me to in certain areas seems like a denial of that gift.
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I heard (not surprisingly, from church) that the "strictures" of belief are like strings that tie a tree to a stake, so that it grows straight instead of being bent over by the wind.
My expoundment: So the rules are like the strings. God is like the sunlight helping the tree grow, and the straighter the tree is the quicker it will grow toward the sun. That's my take on church vs. spirituality.
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When I felt restrained and/or restricted by religion, I left that church and became agnostic and hostile to religion in general.
Now I belong to a church I feel very free to be myself. On inconsquentials, there is a lot of leeway, and on the essentials, there is grace and truth both. I do not feel restrained any more than I have asked to be held accountable to a standard I believe is true and right. To that end, there are people in the church I've *asked* to call me on my behavior when it falls out of line. I wouldn't be very happy to be called to account by someone I hadn't given asked...but ultimately, if what they said was true, and could point out convincingly how wrong it was, I'd pretty much have to own up to it and be glad they had the courage to confront me. And if it wasn't true, I'd have to figure that the church was made up of fallable people, and try to get over being mad long enough to forgive them. This outlook has led me to never, not once, feel that I wanted to leave this church.
Ultimately, I believe that our pastor is a genuinely humble man, one who believes in freedom in Christ, and as such wants that freedom for others. So our church wavers more on the side of grace than truth sometimes...but I think I'd rather that, as it isn't all that tough to find someone to tell you what you're doing wrong, and a lot harder to find someone to tell you it doesn't matter what you did wrong -- you're still loved.
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The Catholic Church, is, among other things, perhaps the most clear about what is and isn't a sin, if not as clear about why. It also treats them all pretty much the same as actions, with the difference between venial and mortal sin being one of intent, rather than of degree. I have confessed some big whopping "I can't believe I'm telling anyone this" sins and some very simple "little white lie" kind of sins and the priests have always treated all of them with the same respect and kindly, sage advice. As an aside, I don't doubt that all the fire-breathing, pedophile priests and nuns with two-handed, claymore-sized rulers exist, but I haven't met a one...
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I feel restained by my religion, but that's not always a bad thing.
I feel that I have walls on either side of me, but they are only one foot high. Outside of the walls, there are rainbows and stars, and promises of wonderful things. I can jump over the walls, but when I'm on the other side, I realize that the ground's not there, nothing's holding me up, and I'm falling.
Luckily God catches me when I fall and helps me get back between the walls.
The place outside of the walls looks beatiful, but, once there, is deadly.
The place INSIDE the walls seems boring and restrictive to everyone else, but it's safe, lighted, and I can run as fast as I want with my eyes closed, and feel completely free because the road I'm on will take me to where I want to go without me even looking.
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I think that at times I may have felt restrained by my religion, but most of the time I feel protected by it. I feel that by following it, my life has been much better than if I were following my own desires.
EDIT: Meaning desires that were foolish, I have had an over abundance of those in my life.
posted
I've never felt restrained, honestly. Not in the way the original poster means, I think.
I have felt required-- duty-bound-- to do certain things that I did not want to. But the kicker that kicked me into action was the knowledge that what I was going about was the right thing to do.
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That's funny, rivka. I'd rather be falling through the beautiful things with no control over when, how or if I land than be trapped in that cage with 1 foot walls.
Which is, I suppose, why I don't believe.
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But then, I don't see it as "trapped" or a "cage" -- so maybe that's why I do. And I believe the freedom and beauty of the endless fall is illusory.
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And I support your right to make that choice 100%, but reserve the right to be saddened by it. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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No, I never feel restrained by my religion. It's very liberating for me. I have honestly become stronger and more free than at any time in my life. I think the fact that I chose my religion as a grown up, because I saw that it was true and right may make the difference here.
I know that many people get angry at God for things sometimes, too, which I don't seem to ever do. I guess I remember when there was no God for me, how things were then, and they were so very much worse. I don't ever tend to want to blame God for things.
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quote: But after I really chose it for myself, I do not feel constrained.
I have to agree with this, Porteiro-head (I think that's how you spelled it). I remember having the pressure on both friends and family to be either wiccan or christian. I didn't like christianity, I felt too guilty and ashamed about my sexuality and myself. Like I was being punished all the time. But, in a lot of instances, I found wicca to be a bit flaky. This caused a great deal of confusion and anger during my teenage years.
Then, right before I turned 18, the rest of my family went on a trip without me. I was alone for 3 days, and in those 3 days, I decided what I really believed in. I became a pagan and have never looked back. I've never been happier in my life. I can't imagine "converting" to christianity.
But, as for falling through the "Beautiful illusion," why do you think you are falling? Why do you believe it to be an illusion? Was this a description of temptation? But, why is it bad?
I kind of have to take Bob the Lawyer's side, but I don't think of it as the Matrix. The foot-tall wall, isn't really a prison, it's a safety net. But a safety net for what?
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ON all of our church's literature is printed this:
In Essentials...Unity In Non-Essentials...liberty In All things... Charity
There is no reason for me to feel restrained or repressed. On the essentials, I walk in step with the people of my church, because they are essentials. Things like belief that Christ was the son of God, that the Bible is inspired scripture, that belief in Christ redeems my sins.
On non-essentials, like whether or not reading Lord of the Rings is okay, we have liberty to make our own choices. No reason to feel repressed.
And all things must be done with love. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: All factions are different, because they are made by man. All morals are the same, for they come from God.
Works for me. But often I am torn between what's right and what's pragmatic, which sometimes can be amoral.
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When I was a teen, I felt that I had gotten the raw end of the deal by being raised in my church. Because I had been taught that certain things were wrong, I was responsible for how I used that knowledge. I saw the other teens out drinking, doing drugs, and having wanton sex and I envied them. I used to wish that I had been born outside of the church and only later, after I had sown my wild oats, learned of it.
But now, after having been converted to my own faith, I am grateful that I (mostly) did not give in to those desires. While they would have brought me some pleasure, they would not have made me happy. It would have been a lot harder to get to the point I am today.
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I see your point and, for the most part, I agree with it. My only objection would come from a religion like Islam as it exists in Saudi Arabia. Women, for example, aren't allowed to drive.
Of course, I am not Islamic, and I do not live in Saudi Arabia. But I can imagine being totally committed to my faith, believing in the utter truth of my God, and still wanting to be able to drive my children to the hospital if they get hurt.
This gets a little tricky when the government becomes involved, but for Saudi Arabia it's often safe to assume that restrictions like this one come from the imams with ties to the royal family, and not from the reform-minded Prince Abdullah. (And the driving restriction, for a fact, did originate with the clerics, not with the ruling family.)
I think you can still believe in the ultimate truth of your faith and still believe in the need for reform of your church or religious institution.
[ March 09, 2004, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Kasie H ]
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For some reason being a bit of a heathen and a mystic has not made me run around endulging in sex, drugs and booze... I just have no interest in drugs and booze and as for the other, the opportunity has yet to present itself. Still, I have a very strong moral code. Do the right thing, no matter how hard it gets. It's what the books taught me
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