posted
By all means! There's really nothing to hide when it comes to sex ed, anymore than there is something to hide in the math curriculum. And parents could opt out, or better yet, come to the class with their kids!
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posted
By the same token, I think that financial education should be far more prominent in school curriculum. I was so clueless when I got out of HS....it would have been great to have money management as part of school all the way from kindergarten on up.
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posted
No kidding! Last year, I ran a mini-economy in my G/T classroom, and it was amazing. The kids learned so much, and their little economy worked much the same as our own, with all the goods and bads. It was interesting, though, to see the class evolving just a bit more compassion and socialism than our current economy. They took care of the lazier and less well-off students, but they also learned how to keep themselves from getting burned. The goal seemed to be "How can we get what we want AND make sure everyone is still having fun?"
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posted
Wow, that's cool, Jenny! That would have been really interesting to watch.
I discovered this weekend that you have to be 15 to sign checks. *grumble* I wanted Christian to open a checking account so he could start paying some bills. He likes to subscribe to things, and thus far, we've written out the checks, then he pays us. I wanted to cut us out of the middle, so he could start learning how to balance a checkbook, manage his money, etc. Instead, to accomplish the same thing, he'll have to buy money orders every time. Still a learning experience, but not quite what I was planning.
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Boon
unregistered
posted
My friend's wife is a teacher. A few days ago, three of her students, two boys and a girl, were 3 hours late to class. They were at the girl's house. Her parents weren't home. They were "having fun". She teaches 5th grade. That makes the kids, what? 10? 11?
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posted
I'm in favor of Sex Ed. being taught in the schools provided, as many have already said, it is taught factually and without bias, and that parents may opt out. I have no idea what age is appropriate though, probably different levels of depth for different ages.
On Financial Education, I remember taking an Economics course in High School that had a powerful influence on me. They gave us a hypothetical situation where we were assigned a minimum wage or near minimum wage job. Then, with the money we took home from that job, we had to research how much an apartment would cost, transportation, and food. We actually had to make out a week's meal schedule. Sure sobered me up about money!
We also got to experiment with the stock market, choosing a stock, hypothetically purchasing some, and watching it for the next few weeks.
I don't know how common these sorts of activities are, but it really had a good effect on me.
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posted
jeniwren - what I did with my teen was to open up a banking account for him that provided a check card. My name's on it, mainly to make direct-depositing his allowance easier.
This has several advantages. He has the account and the checkbook-balancing, he has checks if he needs them, he doesn't have cash in his pocket begging to be spent, and he can order stuff online without going through me.
And he has a card that gives him the convenience of a credit card but won't let him spend more than he actually has. I'm not a fan of credit cards at all and now that he's of age he gets more offers in the mail than we do. Best to get him used to living within his means now.
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posted
Chris, what age did you start that with him? I hadn't thought to get Christian a cash card. I'd already planned to be on the account...I figured that was a necessity.
How is it working out with your teen? How much involvement do you have in helping him manage his account?
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posted
I got a classmate who is currently six or seven months pregnant.
My foreign language teacher (he is, speaks, and teaches Chinese) wouldn't have allowed his daughter to have sex eduacation, but he's divorced and lost a child custody to his ex-wife. (I'll tell you about his family life later) Also, he's against homosexuals (and homosexuality) for either religious, Biblical, or some reasons. Plus, he's conservative known as old-fashioned, esp. to life.
TV is not that bad! Shows aren't that bad, unless there's only one or zero point of view, probably as in anti- or pro-. For example, Maude writers made a (sorta) pro-abortion episode. No offense, but i can't stand any more judgements against or for tv.
posted
I believe in sex ed, and think it needs to go further and start earlier. I learned most of my "sex education" from teen magazines and on my own.
My mother tried to tell me as a highschool senior, when I had my first crush, that kissing boys would give you AIDS. That was the only sex discussion I ever had with her. I was flabbergasted and didn't even know what to say to her.
My best friend called me in college in tears because she had her first sexual encounter. Her boyfriend had touched her through her panties and then touched himself and then touched her again. She was hysterical and was going to get the morning after pill and vowed never to let anyone near her again. This is not the kind of abstinance we want to promote.
You can have knowledge while also teaching responsibility and respect and even still make the decision not to have sex until marriage. It will make waiting a positive experience and not something driven by fear.
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posted
I recently got a Debit Card for all the reasons Chris mentioned. Mostly, I realized that if I had one dollar in my pocket, I could be happy with that. But if I had twenty dollars in my pocket, I would spend the whole thing (not just the same $1). So, it gets rid of the loose cash, and if I want to buy something expensive, I'm not carrying that much cash around.
I also have it set up so that at the end of every month, half of my debit account goes into a savings account, without any action on my part.
Posts: 515 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
It was after he turned 18, so the underage thing wasn't an issue, although that wasn't why we waited. Best would be to talk to someone at your bank and see what the options are.
I greatly prefer check cards, for him and for me. You also don't have to worry (as much) if he loses it Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I am staying away from the direct sex-ed discussion because I don't think I have much to add to what has already been posted.
However, because we live in an entertainment society*, I think schools should aggressively teach advertising techniques and tricks.
I include education on who finances pop artists and who are the actual creators of music, movies, et cetera, and what formulas they follow to the standard commercial advertisement found on television.
If students understand the psychological games in the advertisement industry and who finances them, I think their behavior will less likely be manipulated, and they will be trained to think critically.
I remember one psychology class where they did a superficial presentation on the above ideas, and I was fascinated and forever changed in a more positive way. I never knew to what extent sprite and mtv have cultural influence!
Since *sex* sells so much, I think an aggressive education in advertisement influence will contribute a lot to sex education--albeit in a round about way. As it is now tho, we get “Channel One” brought to our students by Snickers and the current PG-13 movies.
* I am speaking as an American. Are other countries in an entertainment culture to the extent we are?
Posts: 1034 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
You know what I really wish I had had as a child? I wish there had been good novels to read that showed realistic sex in complete detail. Maybe stories of people who got pregnant very young, and got married and then divorced, as one of my high school acquaintences did, or had abortions or got STDs, as others did. Maybe even some who had to grow up too fast, but managed it, and lived happily ever after. It's sort of a shame that the only depictions of sex in our society are really stupid and unrealistic pornography. Why do serious novels have to leave that out?
Reference books can teach you the dry facts, but how can you understand what they mean without true stories?
I got no information from my parents, but they didn't censor what I read, so I had technical books about biology and so on, with which to combat my ignorance. I have always been appalled at how ignorant my friends were, even as late as high school. That ignorance really is a terrible thing. That's why I'm always in favor of education. One friend thought she couldn't get pregnant unless both partners had simultaneous orgasms. Another was late starting her periods at age 11 and was terrified that she was already pregnant from having been sexually abused at age five. (She didn't realize that sperm don't live that long.)
I was curious about certain things when I was about 4 and I do feel cheated that I was lied to when I asked questions. I asked how it could happen that a baby looked like its father. I knew that the baby grew inside the mom so it made sense that it would look like her but how would her body know what the man she had married looked like? How could the baby grow inside her and take on the looks of the father? And how was it that a woman's body knew when she got married, so as to start having babies, anyway? Another thing I asked came up in a book we had called "The Chinese Children Next Door". That family had a lot of girls and wanted a boy. The book said they decided to try one more time. I asked how do you try or not try to have babies. I thought it just started happening when you were married outside of your control. In what way could you affect the chances of having a baby or not? Every one of these questions was important to my understanding of the world, and I got lied to. I still am sort of bummed about that. I was told that God handled all of that. Why couldn't they have told me the truth? That really bothers me. I will never lie to a kid when they ask questions, I know that for sure.
I believe the more education, the better. It should come from home and school both. Lots of gory details. Abstinence and also safe sex, and even the kama sutra, if they will add that to the curriculum. I very much agree that kids should be taught that pressuring someone for sex is always wrong. That they should never pressure anyone else or allow themselves to be pressured either one. The parents can teach the moral aspects. The parents will have the most effect of anyone, in terms of teaching what is the right way to act.
I totally agree with Geoff that kids who grow up in a community in which abstinence outside of marriage is the only acceptable choice are quite lucky. I don't believe in ostracizing those who slip up, or stoning them or shipping them off to labor camps or anything. I think mistakes take their own toll, and the people who make them need more support and love, not less. After all, all of our ancestors for 3 billion years have been the ones who did get pregnant. Nature is very good at tricking people into doing what they were sure they would never choose to do. But the rules are there to minimize the potential for pain and damage and blighted lives. So teaching kids the rules and expecting them to follow the rules is a very good thing.
posted
It's hard to know exactly how to teach a kid sometimes, though. My parents were just about the most open and informative teachers you could imagine, but we still ran into an order-of-information issue. My dad told me at age five that the man carries half the baby, and the woman carries the other half, and then they are put together in the woman's body. But since I had no concept of humans springing from single-celled organisms, I imagined a full-grown baby bisected along its vertical axis, getting stitched together inside my mother. And I was really confused, since carrying even half a baby should have made my dad look pregnant.
[bashful laugh] Wasn't I cute? Anyway, I don't think there's a perfect way to teach your kids about sex. Tell them too much too early, and you might freak them out or give them weird impressions that you couldn't have predicted. Wait too long or say too little, and you risk all the dangers of ignorance. All parents can do, really, is their best.
By the way, aka, I think it's hard to write fiction that is explicit about sex without being pornographic, because it seems like your choices are (1) include all of the passionate emotion and lust, which excites the reader and makes it borderline porn, or (2) leave it out, which makes it seem like a biology textbook. People do tend to have a sense of decorum about the subject of sex, which forces them to either distance themselves from the details, or feel really dangerous and excited while reading them.
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posted
*giggles* That's kind of funny... In jr high I kept being surrounded by girls who'd read romance novels at me every five seconds... I hated those..
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Maybe you would call it porn. I dunno. If the intent was total realism and not titillation, it seems to me that it wouldn't be pornographic (even though a certain amount of response would naturally happen). I've not seen but just a smattering of porn in my life, but my primary impression of it is that it is really stupid, not realistic at all, and just very very stupid. Maybe it's just because I'm such a geek and learned more about life from reading good books than any other source. But it seems to me that it's a huge, incredibly important part of life, that we all have zero guidance on. The only models there are to learn from are terrible as models because they are so stupid and untrue.
I think from talking to my close girlfriends, too, that the number of married couples who don't have very good sex lives is rather high. That seems like a terrible shame to me. It seems like people as a whole could benefit from knowing a lot more.
posted
Or at least knowing more than slot a goes into hole b... It's sad when these teenagers think they know soo much about sex..
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posted
I don't have children but discussed with my best friend how she handled the situation when her son starting asking about sex.
I agree with her answer - If a child is old enough to ask a question they're old enough for the answer, however, that doesn't mean going into masses of detail. If the answers are kept straightforward and simple, then if they want to know more they'll ask more questions.
This of course depends on having the sort of parent/ child relationship where they feel comfortable asking you questions because its something you've always encouraged them to do.
I'm wary of teaching young children too much too soon. As someone else pointed out everyone's different and are ready to approach different subjects at different ages. Let them have their innocence while they can - they grow up way to fast these days anyway.
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posted
I guess what I mean is that I read good novels all my life from around fifth or sixth grade. So when I think of things like jealousy, or wild passion, infatuation, or selfless love, when I encounter those feelings in myself, I have lots of models for them. I remember how Rogozhan acted in The Idiot, and how Prince Myshkin was, and how Vanya treated his fiancee when she rejected him in favor of someone else in The Insulted and the Humiliated. I have all these internal models of these things in great books, as well as the ones I've seen in my life, and I sort of know where I am. I know who I want to be.
But for sexual feelings or situations we have no models. Or not true ones, anyway. I just wish sex were a topic which also was encountered in great books. I dunno. I guess I still have hopes that such knowledge would be useful to me someday.
Posts: 5509 | Registered: May 1999
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posted
Wow, cochick, that was a brilliant answer. aka, I remember feeling very much as you expressed about being open with my kids. I still feel that way. But as I have had them and "things" have come up (they are still very young so not much has come up) I often find myself hesitating.
I think there is a point of too much information as well a danger of not enough. I guess my hope is that I can be the first one to answer my child's questions rather than an ill-informed peer. I know I got a lot of confusing info, and when my parents were ready to talk to me, I certainly didn't want to talk to them! My mother, though, was able to impart to me some important wisdom. It wasn't until college in a family science class that I learned some very important things about how sex worked. (Phases, how arousal works differently in each gender, etc.) It was good timing for me, but that was an individual case.
There are some excellent books out there, for those interested in waiting until marriage, that are great to read together right before or right after being married. A good one that comes to mind is "The Act of Marriage." It offers wonderful education along with a spiritual (well, Christian) outlook on the importance and sacredness of sex. When you are a virgin approaching your wedding night, the book can be very titillating! But that's okay when you are about to be doing what you are reading about. It really helps you go into things with less ignorance and a good attitude.
I really do appreciate how open my mother was with communication. She taught me some very valuable things. I want to have a very open communication with my children on such things. But I have found it challenging so far.
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posted
aka, do you think that married people with disappointing sex lives are in that situation because they are ignorant about interesting sexual skills? Or because there is some other lack in their relationship?
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posted
So is sex supposed to be something that people understand naturally how to be good at? That as long as your relationship is good, so will your sex life be? Even without information?
Yes, I think ignorance is a big problem. And everyone's ego is so very invested in this subject that it can be very tricky to be completely open and relaxed when discussing it with your spouse. Well meaning people seem to get stuck in patterns that aren't very happy or successful, due mainly to ignorance, and it can become safer and easier just to accept the way things are than to take the risks involved to try and make them better.
In other words, since a person knows they are a caring, sensitive spouse, then obviously whatever they are doing is the right thing, and trying to gain understanding or acceptance for a different view may risk devastating someone you love. That may be an unacceptable risk.
On the other hand, if a lot of information comes in by outside channels that aren't personally directed at the individual, they are able to learn a lot more without any risk to their own feelings, or fears of inadequacy.
Girls tend to talk about these things, and I don't think so many of my close friends have marriages that are out of the ordinary. This seems to be an unfortunately widespread problem. I think people need more sources of information about sex (the feelings of it, and the spiritual personal meaning of it, I mean... the music of it, not just the mechanics) than only their spouse and their own internal reactions.
To me the natural place to learn important things about life, about how to be alive, is in great literature.
So my answer to the topic question, do teens need sex education? Yes, very much so, as do adults.
posted
aka, as you've seen in this thread, I'm very much in favor of sex ed. I'm not saying that people should remain ignorant, by any means. But I do think that a disappointing married sex life is more often a product of a lack of communication or unselfish compassion, rather than a lack of knowledge.
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posted
Oh, Tom, sorry it took me so long to get back to you:
quote:While I agree with Geoff that shame is a powerful corrective, the problem we have in this society is that shame is too often harnessed as a whip by people who seek to wield society's power. (We even see it today; in a society in which being a bigot is shameful, calling someone a bigot is a powerful thing.) This leads to situations like the Magdalene laundries, back-alley abortions, and one-year "boarding schools" for girls with wealthy parents.
There are bad consequences, I think, on both extremes of any choice. If we err too much on the side of shamelessness, then society loses its corrective power. If we err too much on the side of correction, it leads to suffering for those who make mistakes.
One of the foundations of Christianity (and no, I'm not expecting anyone to accept Christianity, it's just an example) is the idea that people should be able to simultaneously critically examine their own failings, and avoid judging other people for theirs. We are expected to accept the fundamental truth that everybody screws up, so that we can recognize our own problems while showing compassion and understanding for others'.
Walking this balancing act, I believe, is a key to building a strong society where everyone can feel accepted. It is possible to promote an ideal while also accepting and supporting those who, for whatever reason, fall short of or violate that ideal.
Extremists disagree with this position, of course. There are those who see judging others and inflicting shame as the greater evil, and others who see violating society's standards as the greater evil. What we need to do is realize that the two are just about equal. They are actually quite natural, and are not always caused by some insidious evil motive on either side.
Problems will arise if we allow one of these "evils" to completely trump the other. Right now, we're leaning very heavily towards naming judgment as the greater evil. We've made a lot of progress on that score, but if we don't start hedging up the other side soon, we'll be in for a world of hurt.
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posted
For those who felt that sex education isn't needed for minors under 18, I know how you feel for yourselves and are afraid of what it might affect them. Yes, we live in societies that either most accept or unaccept. But please, accept the changes throughout the generations. If not, I think either you'll not take the responsibilities of your faults that kids & teens didn't learn anything from the sex ed., esp. not signing the permission slip (in other words, you'd blame yourself or I'll blame you), or... maybe you should watch King of the Hill's 1st season.
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posted
A Rat Named Dog, I agree. The problem with divorcing sexual mores from their parent philosophy or religion is that an imbalance develops.
I think too many people have taken Judeo-Christian shame out of its true doctrinal context, and have divorced it from charity and compassion. I know that when I was a pregnant, unwed teenager, the people most willing to judge me and walk away would probably be the least likely to actually be my friend.
(Also, once a girl is pregnant enough to show, it's been probably half a year since they concieved. I know that by the time people could tell, just by looking at me, that I was pregnant, I was a different person. I certianly didn't need them to tell ME that it was the wrong thing to do. I was living with my consequences, every day.)
My view is, don't name a mess you're not willing to help clean up.
I'm split on how to teach sex ed to kids. It seems, based on other posts here, and on my knowledge of what teenagers are like, that the "selfish" approach works best. Not that teenagers are all self-centered in a bad way; it's simply that season of their life in which they need to focus on growing and developing correctly.
That method includes the scary pictures of the physical ravages of STDs, a description of what it feels like to be used by someone else or sex and then thrown away, dolls that cry unpredictably and unceasingly, etc.
Now that I'm married and a mom I wonder why I shouldn't try to expect the best out of my teenagers, and explain how premarital sex can hurt not only them, but also any illegitimate children or future relationships they might have, and other effects on their future happiness.
Incidentally, synethesia, I don't believe sex is wrong or dirty or shameful, if it's experienced within certian societal confines (i.e., marriage). In fact, it's the love and appreciation for the sanctity of the mortal body that leads me to feel as I do about sex ed.
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posted
I think the idea of writing realistically about sex is a very good idea. Include the sensuality AND the consequences - it's truth. What if you read something and it excited you, but on the next page you were still with the character feeling ashamed and used? Or found that a brief moment of pleasure led to profound struggles? Then, when you found yourself swept away by passion, you might remember that story and know a little better when to say no.
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posted
JG, exactly! The problem with all the writing I've seen that's very frank about sex, is that it's completly unrealistic (in addition to being stupid and poorly written). The reason so many religions teach celibacy outside marriage is because it's truly the best option. It saves a world of heartache and suffering for those involved, as well as those conceived in bad circumstances, without two parents who love each other and love them and are able to provide for them. But how can kids really believe and understand that without access to true stories of real life sex and its consequences?
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posted
aka, I sure wish more movies showed those consequences. Movies have a powerful effect on youth, or at least they did on me.
I want to express my gratitude to OSC for including characters in his stories that choose not to have extra-marital sex, even when tempted. Some may say it is silly and unrealistic, that few people actually act that way, but there are people who act that way and few stories out there that depict them. I like characters that make good roll models, people we can look up to. I would like to see more chaste heroes and more heroes who suffer the natural consequences of promiscuity.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote:Oral sex lessons to cut rates of teenage pregnancy
Mark Townsend Sunday May 9, 2004 The Observer
Encouraging schoolchildren to experiment with oral sex could prove the most effective way of curbing teenage pregnancy rates, a government study has found.
Pupils under 16 who were taught to consider other forms of 'intimacy' such as oral sex were significantly less likely to engage in full intercourse, it was revealed.
Britain's teenage pregnancy rate is the highest in Europe. In 2002 there were 39,286 teen pregnancies recorded. The government has spent more than £60 million to tackle the problem but so far failed to halt the rise.
A sex education course developed by Exeter University trains teachers to talk to teenagers about 'stopping points' before full sex.
Now an unpublished government-backed report reveals that a trial of the course has been a success. Schoolchildren, particularly girls, who received such training developed a 'more mature' response to sex.
The study by the National Foundation for Educational Research found youngsters were 'less likely to be sexually active' than peers who received traditional forms of sex education, dispelling the fears of family campaigners who believe such methods actually arouse the sexual interest of teenagers.
Now the government will recommend the scheme, called A Pause, to schools throughout England and Wales following the success of the trial in 104 schools where sexual intercourse among 16-year-olds fell by up to 20 per cent, according to Dr John Tripp of the Department of Child Health at the University of Exeter, who helped to design the course.
Teachers who sign up to the course are primed to deal with queries from pupils on all kinds of sexual experience. Those behind the course stress the scheme does not suggest teenagers experiment with oral sex. Instead they say A Pause promotes the message that other forms of physical intimacy are safer than full intercourse.
'It teaches people assertiveness skills and that they should be only as intimate as they feel comfortable with,' said Tripp.
A Department for Education and Skills spokesman said the report's verdict would be made available to all schools. 'All teachers respect peer-reviewed material, and this will help influence their decision,' he said.
posted
Encouraging homosexual experimentation goes along the same line of thinking. Two women can't make each other pregnant, neither can two men.
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