posted
Can you? If you are drafted, can you be kicked out if you say you are gay? Make a pass at a member of the same gender? Is there any way to actually get kicked out of the military without suffering real consequences? Can anything be done to not get drafted in the first place? I do not mean conscientious objection; I have no moral problem with killing, only being killed which can happen behind the front lines. Hypothetically, if a person has broken laws in the past but has had no legal action taken against them, would bringing this history to the attention of some bureaucrat or other have any effect?
Girls, you may not be safe either. See S.89 and HR.163. Also, look here.
I don't want to die for the DMCA, the CSA, Halliburton, President Bush's friends, the Patriot Act, or anyone or anything else.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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For the younguns not familiar with MASH: Klinger was married, twice even. He was trying for a Section 8, a discharge for being nuts. It didn't work for the guy in Catch-22, and it didn't work on MASH.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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The military has gone into a "don't ask, don't tell policy." What this means is No one can ask if you are gay, and gay people should not tell that they are. I personnally don't care if someone is gay or not. I did have one lesbian in one of my training schools 4 years ago. She left for other reasons (I think it was drugs). The other reason I don't care is because a bullet could care less who is gay and who is not. Let em be bullet sponges. I don't care, the rest of us are. Let them share in the line of duty. Just don't hit on me and all will be fine.
so yes I do believe they can be drafted.
[ March 13, 2004, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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But if they tell are they out? Did she receive prison time for that something else, and did it happen before she was in, or afterwards? Honestly I could have cared less if gay people are let in or not until I learned about this. Now I hope the discrimination continues so that I can get kicked out.
In other news, I think I am gay.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Quakers can still be made to do stuff that does not involve directly killing people, right? Conscientious objectors can still be killed, especially if they are anywhere outside the US borders. As long as they are going to ship me out I might as well take a few down with me.
If you are a drug addict, are you exempt from the draft, or can you just be kicked out? Do you (or anyone else) know how that works? Little point in being made someone's girlfriend in prison if they send you there.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I wasn't positive about her using drugs. It would have been while she was in. You can't get kicked out for doing drugs before joining as long as you have an approved waiver for it. There are some drugs that if you have used they will not let you in on. If you depict yourself as stupid then join the Army. They take any idiot that comes their way.
You have to do a lot to prove you are gay to get kicked out for it. Kissing another man does not work, because you could be doing it just to get out. They won't fall for bullshi&. Oh and I have seen that last one before. My buddy Zac (who is a little ummm.. vey not all there) kissed a guy quickly on the lips. It was as a joke really. He was married at one point (Not going into that one).
Quakers: I am in full support of having them serve in the military. They can be medics, dentists, radioman, etc. There are all sorts of jobs that the military has in which killing is not involved. I promote the medical and dental fields.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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although I would strongly object, I would be willing to do something helping in medical camps or something like that, but I would never be involved in anything helping fighting. Luckily, I don't weigh enough and have plenty of medical reasons to object, so I'm safe enough anyway.
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Yes, there are other things that can keep you out. I wanted in when I walked into the recruiting station. I needed the benefits. And the money (as little as it is). I have a waiver for asthma (I grew out of it when I was 12 yo) and I had seen a Psycho doctor when I was in Grade school. They were concerned about that. I went voluntarilly and was told I was fine. I just needed to not bottle up my anger and just relax. I sill have a list of those guys in school that picked on me somwhere....*rummages thru stacks of paper* Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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I can say I'm a schizoid, but a doctor might say i'm not. Sorry if i'm making this difficult or taking this too far for you. I work with recruiters every time I go on leave so I can get 5 days back.
btw, you don't have to answer this one if you don't want to. I can care less if anyone wants to join or not or is trying real hard not to go. My job is not to get people into the military. As long as I am overworked and underpaid and a republican is in office who will raise my pay I am happy. Oh uh thanks for the pay check....wait, I pay taxes too. *Thanks self*
[ March 13, 2004, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Do I have to ask for that waiver, or will they automatically grant it if they want me to join? What drugs will they not let you in if you have done? Remember, I am trying to avoid the draft if it is reinstated, not enlist voluntarily.
Does addiction count as a mental illness? Do you have to have that diagnosed? If you get it diagnosed, are you legally obligated to do anything about it as far as treatment goes, or can you just ignore it?
Don't feel sorry for making it difficult. I would rather have difficult but true advice than easy but false. I appreciate everything you can tell me.
I have nothing but respect for those in the military, but I do not want to join their ranks.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: What drugs will they not let you in if you have done?
Drugs like acid and lsd and I think...yes cocain. Those ones they won't want you. These are three of I don't know how many that make major contributions to brain damage and renders you basically useless. Of course they also render ya useless to society as a whole anyway.
quote: Does addiction count as a mental illness?
It's either titled under Mental illness or as a Disorder.
quote: Do you have to have that diagnosed?
No. If you have used drugs such as those then you "could" just tell them. Mind you Weed is waiverable.
As far as treatment...I would go to treatment anyway. Drugs are a waste of the life. There is so much else to do. Waste of money too.
Regulations of the Draft are pending until they actually formally place it in action. I do know that the draft done for 'Nam if you did not open the draft letter you could enter the branch of your choice. If you open the letter then you have lost the only volunteering they allowed.
Hey I found the text of draft in question. It says you can do 2 years of civilian service instead of military. congressPosts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Just become a member at a mennonite church. They're still exempt from military service. Or atleast they still are in Canada, pretty sure they still are in the US too...
Posts: 37 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Can you point me to a document (online or offline) that actually says "people who have taken drug X are not eligible for military service, including the draft"?
Civil service doing what, and where? In previous wars they trained the conscientious objectors as medics and sent them out in the field, except they lacked even a gun. Or is that still considered military?
Lots of military crypto guys are not in the front lines either, but if I were on the opposing side I would certainly aim a missile at them if I knew where they were. Also, I am none too keen on helping the government kill brown people or yellow people or white people who have a different language even if I am not the one pulling the trigger. It is not my fight.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Not directly, but honestly it is more about helping the government do anything than killing specifically. I have no intellectual problem with killing anyone, but I would rather it be someone who deserves it than some poor sap who likely does not want to be there any more than I do. And whether or not saving the life of a soldier counts as helping kill someone or not, I figure any association with any party that is fighting a war can only increase one's chances of getting killed. I have loads of problems with being killed. Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Danzig, even if you went into crypto or another branch of MI (Military Intelligence), you will be trained to shoot a gun. You will go to basic training. If you enter any branch of the military, you will be taught these skills in Boot Camp. Boot Camp is not optional. It's way easier than it used to be (according to Hubby, who went through Navy bootcamp at eighteen, and then Army bootcamp at 29, it's a long story), but it's still mostly about the ammo.
The best way to avoid the draft (IMO) is to get your college degree in something impressive, then get your advanced degree in the same impressive thing, and then become very good at your impressive field. Of course, by then you will no longer be eligible for the draft, because you will be too old. Voila!
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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And if you go in by yourself singing a bar of "Alice's Restaurant" they'll think you're crazy. And son, if two of you, two of you go in singing a bar of "Alice's Restaurant" they'll think you're *gay* and won't take neither one of ya...
posted
jexx, that is why I am asking. I know enough about the military to know that once you are in, they can do pretty much whatever they want no matter what they said. However, there are plans being made for a possible draft of skilled technical workers, and the age limit on that is 44. As a matter of fact a story about this on Slashdot (techie/geek website) is what prompted me to start this thread. Also, I read somewhere today that college students can only stay to the end of their semester, or academic year if they are seniors. College is not the block it used to be. Not that I do not plan to stay in school as long as possible, of course.
To my knowledge, not a single one of my peers is aware of the fact that the draft is being reinstated either.
Edit: Thanks mack. Any real chance of being involuntarily committed or anything like that?
posted
Become a Rastafarian: your religiously required dreadlocks will disqualify you. Become a Sikh: your religiously required long hair, beard, and turban will disqualify you. If you can find one amongst your mother's direct female ancestors, become an Orthodox Jew: your religiously required yarmulke will disqualify you. Admittedly many Orthodox don't wear yarmulkes while engaging in business, but you can insist that you are one of those who do. Become a member of the NativeAmericanChurch: peyote ceremonies.
posted
I don't see the draft being reinstated in the next few years, I'm sorry, I just don't see it. They continue to 'downsize' the military, so why would they bring in a bunch of untrained, non-voluntary folks to take the place of seasoned sergeants who have left because of 'forced voluntary early retirement'?
There are all kinds of bills and resolutions up for a vote every year, and while we (as voters and citizens) need to be aware of what is being voted on, we also need to be aware that a LOT of bills and resolutions are drafted as leverage and aren't meant to be passed, even by their original drafters. And no, I don't have documentation for this, I'm being lazy and painting this whole reply with the "IMHO" brush.
So there.
*grin*
edited to reply to aspectre, who posted when I was posting!
There are Sikhs and Orthodox Jews in the military (I personally know two rabbi/chaplains with camouflage yarmulkes-yay! And I knew by sight one Sikh when we were stationed in Alaska-he wore a turban to cover his hair). I don't know any Rastafarians, I must admit.
posted
jexx, I hope you are correct, but I am in the prime age group to be targetted. If they need anything other than grunts, I will probably also be in the targetted skill set when I graduate from college. If my past choices can get me out of this then I certainly want to know about it. I also would appreciate the irony if the stuff they said would ruin my life ends up being responsible for possibly saving my life, or at least being responsible for improving my quality of life. Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I know there were yarmulke-wearing Jews and turban-wearing Sikhs in the military, but I thought they were kicked out after the 1981 SupremeCourt ruling.
posted
I have to admit that I can't make head or tails out of that legalese on the link you provided, aspectre. *laughs at self* But I can assure you there was at least one turban-wearing Sikh at Ft. Richardson between 1998-2001, and there are two yarmulke-wearing Jews at West Point right now.
The case documented on the link you provided was Air Force, though, so perhaps the Army slipped under the 'no covers indoors' radar somehow?
Danzig: I have a hard time sympathizing with your plight, being married to an Army guy and working with young people who are about to go to Korea and Croatia and Iraq in about three months. *grin* It's not you (as they say), it's me.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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He chose to, I never will. I really do appreciate what he is willing to do and sacrifice, though. I wish he was not being shipped off, of course, because I am selfish enough to say keep American troops for America and screw the rest of the world, but certainly I have a lot of respect for what he is doing. I have lots of family who were in the military, as well as a couple of friends who are now. They are all much braver and unselfish men than I am or ever will be.
Also, all of this is only for wars outside US borders that are not defensive. If US territory is attacked by an actual nation I would have very different feelings about the draft, even though we will still have the DMCA and CSA. Depending on my age, skills, and general life situation, I might even enlist. But not for outside our borders, fighting countries that never touched US land. I am too selfish, and love life too much.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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I know Orthodox Jewish veterans, both recent and not, and have friends of friends who are currently in the US armed services (I have relatives in the Israeli armed services).
But I agree with jexx, I think reinstating the draft is HIGHLY unlikely.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Danzig, I understand what you are saying. Not everyone is cut out for the military (I know that *I* would be an awful soldier, for instance), and I have ambiguous feelings about the draft. Don't sweat it. I appreciate your kind words.
I really couldn't read the link aspectre provided, I wasn't dissembling, it made absolutely no sense to me. Maybe it was the small print, I dunno. Anyway, I didn't see where it said the Supreme Court resolved not to allow yarmulkes or turbans, am I just that blind? And is it possible that the decision was overturned? Or that it only applied to the Air Force?
The Israeli Army is interesting to me, rivka. I have an internet friend who continues his service once a month, in computers. He's not Orthodox, though (he calls himself a 'secular Israeli', and belongs to a more dogmatically relaxed sect of Judaism, is that an okay term?) so he doesn't wear a yarmulke (camo or otherwise).
Oh, and hey, how cool is it that the Army provides camo yarmulkes? No one commented on that! Rabbi Huerta said that he got his at the P/X in Ft. Benning, Georgia. Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
I thought it said that the military could ban yalmulkes or turbans if they wanted to, and apparently that was the policy of the Air Force at that time. Probably different branches would have different rules. And of course I could be totally off.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
The USAirForce never had a "no headcoverings indoors" rule for maintenance personnel: don't even have to stand at attention and salute for superior officers if working on a piece of equipment. As far as I know, the other services operate in the same manner.
I'm wondering if it's special dispensation for chaplains only -- they are exempt from many things -- or if the military has once again changed its uniform dress code.
I've always found it weird that the military insists on short hair on men, while allowing long hair on women. How is that enforcing uniformity? And what the heck is it with skirts on women, and pants-only on men?
Posts: 8501 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Aside from the cousins of various degrees in the Israeli army (who vary from non-religious to Orthodox), I have two uncles who have once-a-month reserve duty -- mm, wait, I think one might have recently aged out *thinks* yeah, a couple years ago, so I guess it's just one.
Oddly, the one who's still in fits your description to a T. *eyes jexx oddly* Do you know what city he lives in?
And yeah, I've seen camo yarmulkes -- you can even buy 'em some places with others styles. They go in and out of style with the local teen boys, I think.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
It occurs to me that some rules are also up to the discretion of the Post Commander, or the different company Commanders, too. Like PT (Physical Training, daily calisthenics), sometimes commanders don't have company athletics, but each soldier does his/her own PT.
I know many female officers who would much prefer to wear pants rather than skirts while instructing. I think that gender-specific uniforms are not effective.
There are a lot of things in this world I would like to change. So many, many things. I shall apply for the job of World Empress, and let you know how that goes. Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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rivka, I don't remember which city Eyal lives in, but it's one of the ones that is famous. Does that help? *grin* OH! And it is a very, very old city with lots of archaelogical and religious sites.
So, that should make it easy! Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
Wow...back. Had to read a lot to try and assemble myself. First, Jexx, you are right and wrong. Right in that not everyone is cut out for the military. I never said the draft was coming out, but there is legislation on the table. I decided I am going to dissect it tomorrow when I have duty. The wrong is only a partial. I am in the Navy and yes they kind of teach guns (if you can call laser tag style broom sticks guns) in boot camp. It is not their top priority. After all, I did horrible w/ their idea of a gun at Basic. I didn't feel right w/o an actual gun(am an avid hunter. successful in downing a few beers and chowin down some chili and watching the hockey game. Deer count zero). Very few outside of the Navy security personnel(Master at Arms) actually have guns. Some of the topside watches used to until some guy committed suicide. Yes, the military is downsizing. The Army has also stated tho that they are at least 30,000 people low, and maybe having to use special powers to increase numbers w/in the ranks. Personally the Army can shove it up their yin yang as far as I am concerned. If anybody Army reading this sorry, love y'all but I hate your branch of service. I hope that they don't reinstate any draft. That way you can do your thing, pay your taxes, and let those of us that are in the armed forces take care of our business. I don't dislike anyone for disagreeing with the war that has been going on. Tho if you are going to place that on the members of the military I will have a complaint on that. We know what we are fighting for, and even after that we still need your (and ours) tax money to pay our paychecks so that we can lead a somewhat normal family life like the rest of y'all. My example for the beginning part of this: I am a nuke Mechanic. NO ONE in their right mind would EVER put a gun in one of our hands. It is just insane. We get boat from point A to point B. We make electrical power, fresh water, and heating steam so people can have hot showers. Yes after a while of providing all these services for the boat we tend to believe that we can walk on water. I would have never made a good combat soldier, but heck, I'm a damn good mechanic. Been working on mechanical equipment since my dad taught me to fix a harley when I was 5 yo. So I would relax on this. Congress has yet to ever pull their heads out of their asses, and they ain't starting now.
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Sikhs and Orthodox Jews were occassionally granted exemption before 1999 when the exemptions were suspended. I strongly suspect it was for officers only.
posted
Heh, I should have just asked his name -- My uncle is David. And come to think of it, he does wear a yarmulke, despite the fact that he "belongs to a more dogmatically relaxed sect of Judaism."
And he actually lives in a city that doesn't fit your description -- that is, not Jerusalem, or Sefat (Tzafed), or about 2 dozen others. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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Stan the man, trust me, the Army branch of the military has incurred my wrath on more than one occasion. The housing alone fills me with the fire of a thousand burning nuns. To tell the truth, though, Hubby looked at all the branches before choosing the Army, and they had the best recruitment options for our lifestyle at the time.
Maybe the religious headcoverings ARE an officer thing, or a chaplain thing, I don't know.
edit to respond to rivka: Oh well, it was too much to ask for such a perfect coincidence, I guess. *grin*
posted
I never said it wasn't right for him and you. I said that it wasn't right for ME. My cousin did a short term in the Army. He got out because he wanted to be a photographer and they said no. This guy had been jumpin out of perfectly fine aircraft for 4 years. He was tired of it. I admit I like the Navy, your hubby would probably hate it. It might not have ever been for him. I'm single so don't have housing issues. So there is one god send.
[ March 13, 2004, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Stan the man ]
Posts: 2208 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Sorry, Stan, misunderstood. Chuck actually was in the Navy at one point (and both of my parents served in the Navy), but didn't return to the Navy as prior service because they wouldn't give him the MOS he wanted. Different strokes.
Do you like football? We could talk about how Navy whups Army's @ss every year if you like. *grin* It's totally true. This year's our year, though, we have a new coach!
The Army's getting better about fixing up its barracks (for the single soldiers, for all you civilians ), but its family housing still stinks. They're working on it (says The Army Times *rollseyes*), but there are a lot of 'bandaid solutions' happening on these outdated, poorly constructed buildings. *heavy sigh*
edited to fix a possessive--crazy apostrophe rules!
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