posted
Here's what I have against the widespread images of "perfect" (read "airbrushed or otherwise altered") women that are nearly ubiquitous in society. This is not necessarily about porn alone and has nothing to do with the government or legislation.
I think viewing such images makes males in general more demanding in what is required to stimulate them. This leads to women feeling that they have to have perfect bodies or men will find them repulsive. While being healthy and fit is good, the effort required to meet the rising expectations of men is unhealthy, IMO. We have high incidences of eating disorders and women undergoing surgery or other drastic measures to alter their appearance.
I don't know enough about hard porn to know if it focuses on women who are "physically perfect" or if that is secondary to the acts or situations potrayed therein.
But it seems that a lot of the "soft" stuff or things going in that direction focus on "physically perfect" females. These images are found everywhere, magazines, movies, TV, videogames, etc. It makes me wonder if young men of our society are shocked at the lack of perfection in the actual women they become intimate with. But of course, the secondary effect of men's raised expectations are that more women are likely to meet their standards due to the overwhelming amount of time and money they dump into their appearance. But is that fair to women?
What do you of Hatrack say? Do males focusing on these images cause their demand for large chested, thin-hipped women to rise? Does it get to the point that average, unaltered, flesh-and-blood women just can't stimulate a sexual response from men? Do men require greater stimulation (like porn) to get a response because they are used to more stimulating material on a regular basis? Educate me.
Now, men don't have to deal with so many demands on physical appearance because every goon knows that a guy does not have to be physically attractive to have a decent, pretty woman attracted to him. Women may drool over Brad Pitt or Orlando Bloom, but they can also totally go for a guy who is good and solid but not very attractive. How many movies have the ugly, geek guy gets the hot babe? How many movies have the ugly, geek girl gets the hunk? A few make a pale effort, but the girl usually has to "transform" to get him.
But perhaps men feel the same way about romance books and movies. Do chick-flicks inflate the expectations of women on men to be perfect in other ways? This is one of the reasons I can't stomach most chick-flicks. I find them... unsatisfyingly unrealistic. Do guys out there feel intimidated by the built-up image of what women expect of them based on all the romance stories out there?
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posted
Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.
Also, I think it's good to try to look as good as you can; I spend a lot of time down at the gym trying to look like Brad Pitt and I don't see any real problem with it.
[ April 07, 2004, 12:32 AM: Message edited by: Book ]
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posted
I'm not so sure it's the guys that are most affected. In my experience, which is far from conclusive, of course, it seems that it is women who are obsessed with living up to these images, not men who demand it of them. Kind of like how most men seem to say that makeup is not necessary, but women don't buy into this. I personally find your stereotype supermodel, with phony boobs, garich makeup, cheesy come-hither look, and vacant eyes, to be repugnant. But maybe that's just me. *shrug* What's porter say?
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posted
Beverly, I have seen evidence of that which you speak... but I've seen more evidence that males will let themselves be manipulated by attractive women, as if we owe them something for being attractive.
It does, indeed, cut both ways.
Fortunately, though, it doesn't have to be that way and, while I am as taken by the swimsuit calendars and victoria's secret commercials as any guy, I also happen to find almost any "average" woman to be beautiful as well.
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posted
I always thought women dress up to impress other women not men. Kinda of a competition thing. I have seen that in my life anyways.
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posted
It's not hard to impress a man. Pretty much all you have to do is wear an okay dress and touch him. Anywhere. Doesn't matter.
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posted
Icky, Porter is not a good representation of the average man (I think that is a good thing!) Pornography is not really a part of his life at all. I know he likes me just fine, and, uh, I will leave it at that. That is all that is important regarding my own situation.
But it is true that some of my reflections here are influenced by my own personal insecurities, and I am wondering just how much. That is why I ask for your input (and thank you for the comments already given!) Having a widespread representation of different perspectives helps me understand my own better. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Sorry if I got too personal. Actually, I was assuming that porter was like me in that regard (i.e., not prone to an unrealistic demand of women), and thinking that, if true, this would back up my claim.
Of course, it could be, as you say, that we're both just strange. :-p
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quote:Icarus talked about porn and stuff: I'm not so sure it's the guys that are most affected. In my experience, which is far from conclusive, of course, it seems that it is women who are obsessed with living up to these images, not men who demand it of them. Kind of like how most men seem to say that makeup is not necessary, but women don't buy into this. I personally find your stereotype supermodel, with phony boobs, garich makeup, cheesy come-hither look, and vacant eyes, to be repugnant. But maybe that's just me. *shrug* What's porter say?
I think you're right. I mean, or course there are many guys who really appreciate the sight of an attractive woman. But I think most guys who are worth spending time with don't think women are any less attractive because there are some really hot girls across the room.
Yet women still spend a lot of time worrying about their attractiveness.
quote:Beverly asked: Do males focusing on these images cause their demand for large chested, thin-hipped women to rise? Does it get to the point that average, unaltered, flesh-and-blood women just can't stimulate a sexual response from men? Do men require greater stimulation (like porn) to get a response because they are used to more stimulating material on a regular basis?
I think I would answer no to all three questions. In some cases, your hypothesis may be correct, but I don't think it's that common. I don't think watching anything on TV could beat actual attention from a real woman.
I can't speak for everybody, maybe not even many people, but I don't like big chested, thin-hipped women. Especially if they're bony-thin.
quote:Book said: Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.
I don't think that's true. There are always stories in Reader's Digest about how good men can go astray. And not everybody who views porn is creepy. A lot of them are very nice, very normal people.
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quote: Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.
Well, I am not addicted to it, but I also have no objection what so ever to downloading legal, straight, over 18, non virtual porn.
I am not a frat idiot. Was never in a frat, and never will be. As far as women.......Golly, you'd be hard pressed to look worse than me, so who am I to judge looks? I know I know, I am hard on myself on how I look. That is my opinion.
Long hair. That is what is a must. Well, almost. I can deal with it if she likes her hair short.
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quote: Now, men don't have to deal with so many demands on physical appearance because every goon knows that a guy does not have to be physically attractive to have a decent, pretty woman attracted to him.
I'm not about to dispute this statement. I just want to put in my perspective. Most of my friends throughout my life have been guys. I was friends with a guy in college who wasn't ugly, but wasn't "hot" (IMO). He thought, for whatever reason that he "deserved" a beautiful woman. The girl he ended up marrying was very pretty, but not exactly what I thought he was talking about. Yay for him for not being as shallow as he made himself sound.
On the other hand, I was talking to another guy friend the other night, and while he doesn't exactly "fit the profile" he girls of our group find him perfectly attractive. He doesn't believe us because we are his friends (which I totally understand).
My point is that, it is more widely accepted that the media and society portray and unrealistic images for woman to strive toward, but I think it's important to acknowledge that men are affected as well. Maybe we don't hear so much about it because they have to be, well manly, and pretend to be more secure with themselves than they are. Guys, am I warm?
As a girl who also "doesn't fit the profile" I get depressed every time I see someone who does, whether in real life or in the media. However, I trust that, when the right guy comes along, physical attractiveness won't matter to either of us. A perfect example of "the ugly girl getting the hot guy" is the movie The Truth About Cats & Dogs. There is one potentially offensive scene, but the main theme is that it's what's on the inside that counts. I wish there were more movies like this.
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posted
Let's make a matter of degrees, then. The more addicted someone is to pornographic images, the less likely they're interacting with the real world in a meaningful way in the first place. Or put backwards, if a guy's virtual lusts makes it impossible for him to find reality attractive, he's the one suffering the most (and without my sympathy).
Aesthetically, I think it's very difficult to convey attractiveness in a picture.* I'm a decent photographer by now yet have a hell of a time trying to convey the beauty I see in people. The best I can do is remind myself of it, far from capture it.
I'm probably the wrong one to answer the remaining points. 99% of (visual) porn is boring, yet I've been active in A.S.S.* longer than this BBS...
*I assume that's what we're talking about -- video actors are undividedly ugly (or amateurs, whose lack of extensive makeup etc. removes them from this discussion.)
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posted
I think I speak for most men when I say we're attracted to looks, but stay for the personality. I don't particularly care how well-shaped a woman is if she's an airhead or a brat -- we can have maybe a physical relationship if she's not terminally obnoxious, but I'd never commit to a long-term relationship with someone who annoys me.
Everyone has shortcomings. It's a fact of life, and I doubt many people expect their significant others to be without a few charming imperfections. But if a girl titillates me (no pun intended), she's the one I'm going home with. Toni's short for my giant size, but damn if I wouldn't sweep the girl off her feet given the chance. Whereas if I were stuck with a Lisa Kudrow clone -- pretty enough (kinda sorta not really, but then, I'm biased), but god after five minutes of hearing her ditzy whine I'd strangle her with her own hair -- I'd never consider going out with the woman, let alone having any sort of relationship.
If your husband's having trouble being attracted to you, hit the gym. Work out hard, work out long, and maintain a semblance of physical attractiveness -- I don't think it's unreasonable to be attracted only to women with, if not slim, at least proportional bodies. I wouldn't blame your troubles on the prettiness of other women for raising men's standards. As much as I hate Brad Pitt for giving men a standard to rise to, I'm certainly not going to complain that his existence negates my own sexiness.
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posted
Well, take this for instance: Elisha Cuthbert, who is from the Girl Next Door, is gorgeous in that role. However, on Conan O'Brien just now she was decidedly less attractive-looking, and yet, to me, this "reality" of her appearance made her much more attractive to me personally, because now I see her as a real person; not as an idea. (But I still didn't like her hair that much.... )
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posted
Interesting, Richard. I have wondered if my tendancy to focus on visual beauty has to do with the fact that I am an artist. As an artist, I long to capture beauty and life in a single image. I can appreciate that trying to do that as a photographer can be very challanging. It's amusing to put a movie on frame-by-frame advance and watch some of the terribly unflattering screen-shots that pass by.
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posted
Celebrities on talk shows, in my experience, as more fake than in movies. Stage makeup is excessive by design -- it looks real on camera. The psycho concoctions (and fashions) they come up with for Jay Leno's sake, however, are indefensible. All but a few actresses fall into this trap. Their loss.
Back to porn: my point reaches beyond the abstract. I'm a musician, not an artist, so when I talk about capturing beauty I also mean simply getting my point & shoot to look anywhere near as cute as the person my organic eyes have observed in motion. Glossy magazine covers and so on have no reality-based reference point to remind me of, so I have little reaction one way or the other to most. Porn fares even worse, consisting (in my limited experience) mostly of horse-faced boobfests.
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posted
But this girl, apparently, didn't put on all the talk show makeup. Seriously, it looked like she had just walked in off the street.
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posted
Let me say this, first and foremost, the unreasonable expectations of women’s appearance are not the fault of the porn industry. It simply isn’t ubiquitous enough. You seem to think that every guy goes home after work and watches 6 hours of porn. Even guys who *do* enjoy porn don't generally go after it every day. Compare that to the complete inundation of beautiful airbrushed images you see on TV, in magazines, on billboards, etc. It's these images that are causing the most serious problems. They start as soon as you’re old enough to open your eyes and keep going until you’re dead.
Secondly, I think you’re putting far too much of the blame on men. I’m not going to say that sex doesn’t sell, or that men don’t like beauty, but get real. Women bitch about what other women are wearing and compete with each other an awful lot. Or it’s completely an internal thing; you see these images all around you and feel that’s what you have to be, even though nobody “real” has told you. Think about your own life, how many times has your husband pressured you to be a flawless, thin, big-breasted blond? Your male friends? The TV? Movies? Who’s at the top of that list? Is the fact that these images are even there the fault of men? I don’t think so, things that are marketed to women and only to women still feature beautiful, flawless women.
I think I must be the only guy on the planet who feels pressure to actually look good. Which is odd because I put so much effort into giving off the impression that I don’t care. But, really, how many fat men are in magazines? How many acne-riddled movie stars are there? The problem isn’t with my friends, they don’t give a whit one way or another. I’ve had girlfriends and they certainly haven’t cared. But you can’t get away from all these images of your well-toned man with his perfect smile and blah blah blah, it breeds exactly the same kinds of self doubts. Yes, it is less of a problem for men than women, but there’s also a steady rise of men with eating disorders and the like. Your attitude that men are completely spared from societal pressures to look beautiful and that women don’t care about a man’s appearance where men are flesh-hounds isn’t helping anyone.
Now, I will give you this, studies have shown that men who watch large volumes of porn do, in fact, take more to be stimulated than men that don’t. But this isn’t because they’re expecting an unreachable perfection from their mates, it’s because their minds have started to demand all sorts of variety and the same person doing the same thing just won’t do it for them any more. It doesn’t matter if the most beautiful porn star is on the screen, if he’s seen her a million times it won’t work, he’s going to have to diversify. That’s the most damaging aspect of porn (according to what I’ve read, at any rate), not that men demand an unreachable standard of beauty, but that they require a different woman/situation every time to turn them on.
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quote:But, really, how many fat men are in magazines?
I don't know. Have you seen these new fat-guy hot-wife shows? I am thinking of 'King of Queens' right now. But yeah, I do agreee with you overall.
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I think this worry is partly true, but is also quite a bit off, due to a general misconception of the way each gender experiences things like porn.
Men are supremely visual, and don't get the "cuddle hormones" to the extent that most women get them when experiencing sex. The average, well-adjusted male, when viewing porn does not generally make an emotional connection. Excess viewing of porn can certainly lead to unhealthy fixations, but I would think that the porn is merely a facilitator, and that the predisposition already exists. Also, given the likelihood that an excessive viewer of porn will likely not be having much actual female intimate contact for long lengths of time, the two situations can act as a feedback loop (and an unhealthy one at that).
Generally speaking though, I don't think most porn has the effect on men that some here are fearing. I'd bet (a nickle ) that the incidence of porn addicts to the general population, when adjusted for availability, synchs up pretty well with other addiction rates.
Honestly, I think it's women who mess with other women's perceptions more then men. I knew a good friend in college (yes this is just an anecdote) who was basically estranged from her family because they didn't want her to go to college (not her place, after all), and whose mother (a former local beauty queen) often criticized her looks. She had some major insecurities about it, and colored her worldview accordingly.
posted
I've NEVER heard any of my male friends say or even suggest that there is a "lack of perfection" in the women they are around. If anything, the reaction is almost universally the opposite among the men I know.
It's the women who I hear claiming that men think this.
posted
I agree that most men are more into personality, and here I do have a problem with porn because I don't think a lot of the "actresses" have much self-respect. I'm much more worried about a guy who gets turned on by a helpless, victimized woman that a guy who gets turned on by a physically flawless one. I don't know much about the plots of porn films, but it seems like the women in them must be pretty desperate. And I have had experience with my husband wanting things from me that were fed by the media. I'm sure I'm guilty of the same thing.
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posted
Boy, if nothing else, this thread tells me that the world of gay porn and issues surrounding it is a whole 'nother universe from straight porn.
Just some basic differences (as I see them):
1. While there is probably some degree of exploitation involved in gay porn, large numbers of gay porn stars actually like their careers. There are lots of interviews with gay porn stars where they say as much. Most gay men I know don't find gay porn degrading to the men involved. YMMV.
2. Most of the gay couples I know don't have a problem with their partners' use of porn. Some couples share the experience. Most of the gay men I know who have expressed an opinion think that porn is just another part of a healthy sex life. When Chris and I moved in together, rather than chuck our old porn, we just traded. (OK, that's probably TMI).
3. While most gay porn portrays idealized male physiques, there are vast amounts of it that cater to all different types. There are porn magazines that extoll the beauty of young, old, smooth, hairy, chiseled, husky, and all manner of other physiques. There is almost no body type that doesn't have some porn magazine extolling its sexiness. So I don't think that porn images have hurt the self image of most gay men.
So, I'm not trying to steer the discussion away from straight porn issues. I just thought it was interesting to note a different perspective on the industry.
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quote: In my experience, which is far from conclusive, of course, it seems that it is women who are obsessed with living up to these images, not men who demand it of them
Well, since I've never seen any of "those" images (porn) I have no idea of what I am supposed to live up to....
quote: Yet women still spend a lot of time worrying about their attractiveness.
Not just women, for sure. In my household of teens, it is definately the oldest son who worries more about his appearance and attractiveness to the opposite sex than anyone else in the family. Always saying "I'm ugly, no one (meaning girls) will want to talk to me..." etc. etc. I realize some of this is just a teen thing.
you observation makes me want to insert the question I posed on another thread. It was aimed at VCP, but I will extend it...
quote:For all the discussion on VCP [insert: and any other porn] , I would like to see a study that compares gender and sexual preference with who thinks it should be legal/illegal [insert: is morally acceptable or healthy] . I wonder if there would be a correlation. Any thoughts? It would also be interesting to look at religioius involvement, education level, income level, and anything else you can think of.
posted
FG, maybe not porn, but there's plenty of non-porn pressure on women in readily available outlets. I think that AT WORST porn is just an extension of the much more pervasive situation.
posted
Karl, it may be that some porn stars like their careers. I just doubt that the actor's craft has a lot to do with it and if the director can get someone younger for less money, why wouldn't he? I don't know, you intrepid porn viewers, are their "household names" in straight porn? Or is it pretty much 18 year old of the month?
posted
Female porn careers tend to be short, unless you are one of the "superstars" who at least partially crossover to the mainstream (Of which there are always a few around). I'd say that 99% of female adult actresses are done by the age of 30.
In this regard, it's not unlike regular acting, or even moreso like modeling (or even, in some regards, ballet!). For many the physical and emotional stress affects them. To others, the workplace can be surprisingly professional, and the women don't see much of a problem. The thing is pooka, you are making a tacit assumption that since you couldn't imagine it, it isn't so. There are many adult actresses who do it because the money is good, or they just like the work. Many (particularly the stars) would be offended that they must have low self-esteem because they are filmed having sex for a living. It's a strange, strange world.
The porn industry is much more complex than those who know little about it assume (though admittedly, just about all their assumptions are to some extent true). But is this because most porn is actually soul destroying, or are social stigmas to blame? Would some of the perceived issues of relating to porn disappear if people stopped stigmatizing it? This is the age-old question, as far as social policy goes.
For the record: I don't know many of the "breakout stars", aside from I guess Jenna Jameson. But ask any regular Howard Stern listener, and they'd probably know a few more.
Heck, in the straight porn industry, men are rather an afterthought. Except for a vanishingly small group, men aren't promoted at all. One can make the argument that porn objectifies men more than women.
posted
Actresses, Models, and ballet dancers are not my idea of robust personalities, but... okay. So men are vanishing from porn?
I agree porn objectifies men, but probably not in the same sense as you. It is produced merely to respond to demand, not unlike network television. I don't think comparisons to seemingly harmless institutions are going to raise my opinion of porn.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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First, I think you would be able to find all kinds of people who think porn should not be made illegal. I don't have any idea how many of those would say that it is morally acceptable or healthy. I don't really have a comment on the morality of it except to say that I'd argue Playboy and Inches aren't much less moral than twinkies, or McDonalds, and are probably more so than, say, cigarrettes, or Smirnoff Ice.
I wouldn't be surprised either if a study found that a higher percentage of gay men had friendlier attitudes toward pornography than the general populace. The very act of accepting your own sexuality in a society that marginalizes you for it indicates a certain ability to question societal taboos. And accepting that one is gay also tends to make one less quick to judge the sexual behavior of others.
Additionally, porn falls into the category of things that more people indulge in privately than would be willing to support publicly, so there's going to be a certain margin of error that should be corrected in favor of (at least de-facto) support of pornography.
[edit: misspelled the "straight" porn mag name. Go figure!]
posted
At least according to one porn star (who I'm familiar with because she's a geek, not because she's a porn star), there are very much careers of it, and people are not easily replaced, at least experienced people.
If you want to visit her site (which is actually quite fascinating, though it has some scattered nudity, mainly upper body; its more of a combination personal journal/geek-out (she writes and maintains the site herself)) Just google for Asia Carrera and click on the very first search result.
She's quite famous in the geek community, and has appeared on and regularly been mentioned on tech tv. She's not updating her website right now, so some of the information is out of date, because she's recently married and retired from porn.
However, interested parties might pay particular note to her academic background. You may be surprised.
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I think some of the answers to your questions can be seen even on this thread..... those who are more conservative, and usually deeply religious, are voicing more opinions of the harm of porn, while those who are more secular see less harm, and are arguing more the legalities, and not the moral, part of the dilemma.
pooka -- I probably shouldn't admit this on a public board, since I'm a conservative Christian, but once long ago I went with a group of office gals to see the Chippendale dancers (is that the right name?) Anyway, there were basically male strippers at a nightclub. The event was in honor of someone's birthday, I think.
Anyway, even though these guys were fine specimens of male flesh, I didn't find much attractive about them -- they moved like robots, there was no emotion in their eyes at all. I felt terrible just being there because I felt like I was 'making' them perform these sexual gyrations for the pleasure of the audience, yet they were getting no pleasure out of it at all. They weren't even the slightest aroused. I felt they were being objectified. I wondered how this affected their private sex lives.
(I will mention -- I was the only one there not drinking alcohol, so perhaps that is why I was not moved by this performance. The others girls were drinking quite heavily and really getting into it)
posted
Karl, I would suspect that what you point out (particularly 2 and 3) is due to the fact that homosexuals who are out of the closet must, by definition, have a more open and tolerant (substitute your own adjectives if you don't think this is a good thing) view of sex than average people. Once you have come to grips with what makes you different, and also to some extent rejected some aspect of the traditional view of what makes sex right, then you are less likely, I would think, to be as judgmental. So if your lover is into porn, you are more likely to work that into your relationship than to judge him or shun him for it. Which, to cross-pollinate this thread with Pat's, brings up the question of to what degree the damaging aspects of casual porn use are actually brought on by guilt over it, rather than anything intrinsic in the porn itself.
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quote: they moved like robots, there was no emotion in their eyes at all. I felt terrible just being there because I felt like I was 'making' them perform these sexual gyrations for the pleasure of the audience, yet they were getting no pleasure out of it at all.
That might partially be because the majority of the Chippendale Dancers were gay. So have been at least two of Playgirl's Men of the Year. (Sorry if this disillusions anyone. )
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posted
You know, media does a fairly good job of portraying only physically perfect MEN, as well, unless the physically imperfect man represents the classic "dunderhead" that can't get a woman. How many of you women think that this has made you less accepting of your husbands, to the point where you find them less attractive and can't be stimulated by them?
I didn't think so.
Granted, men and women are different...I just think there's no denying that an "imperfect" lover is better than a "perfect" figment of your imagination.
I basically only reiterated what different people have already said. Oh well.
I DO have a huge problem with the "victim" and "perp" roles that tend to be acted out in porn. Those scare me more than anything.
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posted
pooka, if you admit that other tolerated careers aren't healthy, but aren't trying to get them toned down, then you are apparently using your religious bias in targeting porn actors. Which is fine, but that gets into a whole separate argument.
Men in porn are often uncredited, or at least are always second billing to the female "lead". The men are not much more than props used to produce the desired effects of pleasure in the female actress. That is certainly objectification from nearly any standpoint. The irony of course is that this is all used in turn to excite men (and a few women).
FG: Your response to the Chippendales is almost exactly the same as my response to strip clubs (my first one was an 18+ club, so no alcohol). I admit a certain titillation (being an 18-year-old virgin and all that), but man, those places depress me.
posted
Honestly, I think the sterotype is imposed more by women then by men.
I was actually talking about this with my boyfriend the other night, and I explained it to him this way:
If you go to a party someplace (bar, cocktail party, whatever) looking to meet someone, the guy will walk into the room and immediately scope out all the cute girls. Girls will do exactly the same thing. Because for the girl, she perceives her possibilities as being limited not by the attractiveness of the available men, but by the attractiveness of the other women in the room. If you perceive yourself to be the cutest one in the room, you can go after any of the guys. If you're not, you have to limit your options accordingly.
I'm not sure why this is, really. I'm sure there's some girls who have self-confidence issues when it comes to talking with men, but there's also a general sentiment that most men will be flattered to be the object of any girl's attentions, no matter what she looks like -- until they become annoyed with her personality. (There are, of course, notable exceptions to this rule, for example the "idiot frat boys" described above...there's always *someone* who has an ego too big for them.)
Then again, this could just be my personal slant on things. I've always felt more comfortable talking/conversing/making friends with men than I have with other women. So when I personally walk into a room, it's the other women I feel intimidated by, not the men.
quote: If you go to a party someplace (bar, cocktail party, whatever) looking to meet someone, the guy will walk into the room and immediately scope out all the cute girls. Girls will do exactly the same thing.
I never did this, but only because it never occured to me. My brain is far too sexy to be put off by those girls who have nothing but an aquiline nose. Posts: 6367 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I missed this thread yesterday. More than one person has asked for my input, so I suppose I should respond.
My personal belief is that if a guy *wants* to, he can be attracted to pretty much anyone. He may have to put some effort into it, but he can if he wants to. Why do I say this? Because this has been my personal experience.
Of course, this has a lot to do with why I believe that homosexuality is a choice. Many men have said that they have been attracted to men as long as they can remember. Fine. I can live with that. Some also say they have tried to be attracted to women. I am *not* saying that they are lying, but deep down, I cannot bring myself to believe that.
Maybe it's because I am different. I don't *feel* different, but my wife is constantly telling me that I have a pretty non-standard array of strengths/weaknesses, and that it's not fair to judge others according to my nature.
But in the end, don't we always assume that others are like us? Don't we always assume that others have similar motivations/strengths/weaknesses as us?
quote: We do not see the world as it is -- we se it as we are.
This is not an attack on anybody or any group. I'm just sharing some of the reasons why I think as I do. I hope that I haven't shared more than I should.
I know that I will probably get a log of flack for this opinion. Feel free to disagree -- I don't think I've ever talked to someone about this that agreed with me. But that's still how I think things are.
While not analagous, it reminds me of a lot of the flack that Bob Dole got from the anti-tobacco league. Dole did not have much sympathy for smokers. He had been a smoker himself, and one day decided that he should quit. And he did. His attitude was that if you don't want to smoke, you should just stop.
That was a strength of Dole's. Either he had greater willpower, or his body was less addicted to tobacco, or some combination of the two. But he was not able to bring himself to *really* believe that quitting smoking is that big a deal for people.
Sooooo. Back to the porn issue. I believe that a guy can be attracted to whomever he wants to. I have known guys (usually not too attractive guys) that will only consider girls that are pretty much model or near-model level. How pathetic. I think that a lot of reason for that is self-esteem problems. They don't have the huevos to date a "fat chick" and deal with the real or imagined scorn from their peers. They think that having a hot girl on their side will make them feel like a man. Of course, it means that they have *no* girl on their side.
Saying that you will only date a certain physical type of girl is saying "I don't want to be happy unless I am happy with someone that looks like ***"
Does soft porn affect this? I think it does. As T. Analgo Kid mentioned, swimsuit calanders, victoria's secret ads really catch the attention of a guy. They are designed to arouse, and they work. I think that they condition a guy to get aroused by that type of visual stimulus. The more of it the guy is exposed to, the less likely it will be that he will be sexually attracted to someone who falls short of those standards. What I am talking about is things that are designed to arouse, which many commercials for many things are. I don't think that just becase an actress is thin and attractive and on-screen causes these things.
But again, what do I have to go off of besides my own nature?
BtL -- the porn that I am talking about, and that I think beverly is talking about, does not come from the porn industry. Most people wouldn't even call it porn, or might call it soft porn. And it is different from what is marketed to women. Yes, the stuff marketed to women features flawless-looking females, but it is not titilating. The stuff marketed to guys, like beer or Victoria's Secret (yes, I believe that it is mostly marketed to guys) is designed to arouse.
Crap, but it's difficult to write about such sensitive things. Please be gentle.
quote:Some also say they have tried to be attracted to women. I am *not* saying that they are lying, but deep down, I cannot bring myself to believe that.
Do you believe, deep down inside, that with enough effort, you could make yourself be attracted to men?
Do you believe that most heterosexuals could do this?
Posts: 1112 | Registered: Jan 2003
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quote:You need to meet some more ballet dancers, pooka.
I haven't known many, but they tended to have eating disorders. Not an indictment of character, but generally not seen as a strength.
Bok- where have I brought my religion into this? It seems to be something you are doing. I'm against porn as aspiring activist woman. P.S. I've checked my posts on this thread. I hope you're not just discounting my argument because of my religion.
Oh well, I guess this thread has had enough of me.
quote: Well, in my opinion the guys who are addicted to porn are, well, losers who probably would die for a trip around the bases. Or they're drunk, idiot frat guys you probably don't want to touch. So no fear there.
That's not always true. There are many men who are addicted that you would never suspect; they have families and are dedicated to them, and are otherwise great people and not "losers". There is no "typical" porn addict, that you can tell they are by the type of person it is.
Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
I guess I was talking about the college scenario. I can't imagine sticking with porn after marriage. That's what your wife's for, right? Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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