posted
It can be hard to speak back, especially if you are scared. I still remind myself to "Speak your mind, even if your voice shakes." The very act of saying "I am mad" or "I don't trust you" is a very powerful thing, even if the words quaver in your throat.
katharina, don't forget to give us an update. I'll be thinking about you.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Hmm, I think my last post was misleading - I'm not advocating defintely pressing charges. I just think that threatening, pressing charges, and having them fall flat would be worse than pressing them immediately and having them fall flat. The dangers of the the threat are two-fold: First, it makes any charge-pressing personal, done by Kat, instead of the faceless system correcting him for inappropriate behavior. Second, once a threat is fired and found wanting, it can embolden him.
Police don't understand the reason threats don't work against stalkers. Their job is to catch criminals; criminals want to not be caught. Someone with a record of harassing you will be easy to catch if something happens to you, so in a cop's mind no one normal crook would do anything after his threats are on record. The problem is, this guy is not a normal crook. He is motivated by different things.
By the way, don't be surprised if this jerk presses charges against you. It would be bogus and have no chance of winning, but it would be his attempt to make you look like you overreacted. Which you didn't. If he does this, don't let it phase you at all, or make you second guess your decision to use force this morning. You will need to get a lawyer if he does that, though.
The key thing to remember is no one in the entire world knows more about this situation than you. You know the whole history, and your intuition has been informed by a million signals you haven't consciously processed yet. Your intuition served you well this morning and will do so in the future. The advice on this board should be used to further inform your intuition. If any of the advice seems bad to you, don't follow it.
If you ultimately decide to threaten first, take a cop with you (they will go, if you make the right noise). If you decide to press charges immediately, stand firm in your decision. If you decide to do nothing official once the police have interviewed him, know that you can count on yourself to keep safe. Trust your intuition, and let no one gainsay it.
Dagonee Edit: By the way, this is the situation I think big-brother justice should be allowed in. Not Orwell Big Brother. Real big brother. I'm sure there's a couple dozen people who'd be happy to lend a hand in that department.
posted
Yeah. What he said about trusting yourself.
(And one last thought -- write out what happened in as much detail as possible. You have a good start here. Anything else you can add, while the memory is fresh? A written record is important, both for documentation and to keep the memory fresher if you should need it.)
Dag, a Hatrack Goon Squad? Put Slash in charge, and fill the ranks with righteous men who carry the Wrath of the Lord in their eyes. Mind you, I'm not for vigilante justice, just a bit of a reminder to walk straight.
(don' mess wi' her, ors yah get Burninated, if ya knows whats I mean. *tough guys look )
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
Kat, this makes me so angry I'm shaking. Yes, it's because you are a female alone. Because you are beautiful and kind and polite. This puts me into a cold fury.
You know, skeet shooting is a lovely sport. You get outdoors and develop a nice skill and as it happens, any creepy people in the area will see you going back and forth with your delicate filigreed SHOTGUN, and perhaps when this man saw it he would understand that he has made a serious, serious mistake and needs to do some deep soul searching about his view of life.
The only thing worse would be if you told your father and he blamed you, as happened to a friend of mine. Fury. I am filled with fury about this. You did everything right, dear one, but don't count on the police or anyone else to keep you safe from this point. You keep your own self safe by being perfectly willing to maim or kill if he so much as breathes on you again. If you have no interest in a shotgun, then perhaps I can interest you in a nice stout walking stick? He needs a visible tokan that you are more powerful than he. It wouldn't hurt for him to feel utter quaking terror a little bit, either. Let him understand and get to live with that feeling himself for a while. It is instructive to his sort.
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
*hugs Anne Kate* It's freaky, huh. I am going to make sure he knows it is completely unnacceptable.
...
I am NOT moving, but I may park on the other side of the building. That way, they can't see me from their balcony. Is that running away? Maybe a little... *thinks*
I was fine this morning. My hands were shaking, but I was more mad than anything. I think the creepiness is just now kicking in, because I have to go home tonight, and I don't want to all of a sudden.
posted
There's some paranoid people on this thread...
Forget maiming and killing and trying to intimidate the guy. That sort of thinking inevitably is just going to cause you unnecessary trouble.
You've already clearly warned him, made him run off, and made the authorities aware. Make sure he knows the police and the manager know about the incident. I suspect for most people that will end it. He may have been confused, but he won't be now. If he does try something, he should have no excuse whatsoever any more.
All I'd do beyond that is avoid being alone with the guy in any circumstance, and any situation where he could hurt you. He should be on your personal equivalent to the no-fly list.
posted
There's something very intimidating about the shotgun, even more so than deadlier weapons. Pump shotguns probably make the scariest man-made sound on Earth. And the double barrel breech loading kind (like those used in traditional skeet shooting) are visually very disturbing.
But, and this is key, never rely on a gun for self-protection unless you're willing to kill. And never draw or point one unless you're willing to kill in that situation.
If used as a bluff, and the bluff is called, you're worse off than if you just tried to fight or run.
posted
Goodness, Katie! That is Horrible. The advice here has been good, and I know I've come late to this little party, but ... whoa! Just had to let you know I care about you, and want you to be safe.
My father has a friend who would fit perfectly out on the range. He is tall and lean and grisled. He's had a tough life and wears a tough skin to match it.
Among his many skills, from whittling humours charcters to making quality tables out of old wagon wheels, this friend is a gun smith.
One day, my father's boss decided he needed his gun fixed. It was a shotgun belonging to an ancestor. It hadn't gotten any use in ten years, so he asked our my father to have his friend fix it for resale.
My father's friend picked up the gun at my fathers work, in one of the less friendly parts of town. While the gun was complete on the outside, it had several missing pieces and was mostly rusted. This friend set it in the seat of his pickup truck and headed home.
At the first stop light a strange man walked up to his truck, opened the passenger side door, and started to get in. Just like that. What his plans were--car jacking? begging for a ride? mistaken identity? my father's friend didn't ask.
He simply raised the old shot gun to eye level of the stranger entering his cab.
The stranger looked down the barrel of the gun and froze. Then he flashed a dirty toothed smile as he very slowly and deliberately backed out of the truck and gently closed the door.
The light changed and my father's friend drove off.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:I still think you need to go to the police station and see if he has a record.
He won't, if the last person he did this to made the same decision most are giving kat. Just an observation. Not intending to heavy hand it.
The only useful advice I have is as a former apartment manager. If anything else does happen, think first if it might have been the young kids. We had a tenant that was reported for parking on the laws by another tenant (also a single woman) and the kids wrote her a threatening note (reminiscent of Ralphie's link of power, only not in any way amusing). It really frightened the single woman. The creepy family moved, but so did the woman shortly thereafter.
posted
pooka, wouldn't they keep a record of the complaint itself (her having made a report to the police), or would there only be a record if charges were filed, too? In my mind, I was distinguishing the two, and I assumed that the documentation would be separate, although present in both cases.
It's an important thing to know, regardless of what she does.
Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
That story warms the cockles of my heart, Dan...
but to be clear (because guns are the last thing you want to be unclear about) I'm pretty sure what Dag meant is that if you pull a working gun on someone and are unwilling, for any reason, to use it, you will likely find it used on you.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Yes, you need to be 100% willing to use it, if necessary. But having it and being willing to use it mean that it's probably not going to be necessary.
Tres, it's very sweet that you think that way. I fervently hope that you never have to lose that innocence. Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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quote:With all due respect, Tres, I used to think that way, too. Exactly that way. I don't anymore.
*shrug Personal experiences changed my view.
Personal experiences have set my view as well - too many friends messing things up with extreme responses to fears. It's all too often a case of overestimating the liklihood of the worst case scenario, and underestimating the cost of the measures being taken to prevent that worst case - measures that often provide only an extremely slight benefit (like owning a gun) or may even make the situation worse. Often it is their own personal experiences that create the fear - something in the past that they fear will happen again, or something that happened to some friend (which they will usually recount to justify whatever extremes it is they are taking) - things that may be extremely unlikely, but are remembered much longer than all the times that the worst case did not happen. They call everything but paranoia naive - and end up really hurting themselves as a result.
I've seen it work just like that so many times it's not even funny. I wish more people would learn this lesson, but I think "personal experiences" lead many into a trap of thinking fear should be followed to it's extreme end.
posted
I din't mean to see if he had a record of complaints, but to check to see if he has any attemted rape or assault charges. He probably doesn't, but it wouldn't hurt to verify.
Posts: 1034 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
But if we lack confidence that filing charges in this case wouldn't stick to the guy, why would a past of complaints matter? (I'm trying to keep this real here, not just forcing an argument.)
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Would a past history of complaints be helpful in, say, ensuring the police to take future incidents seriously? That is, if a woman came out of nowhere to make a complaint (or even a charge) against this guy, would she have an easier time making a case with the police and others?
I'd bet it's not admissible in a criminal case, though probably in a civil case. I'm just guessing. (Dag?)
Tresopax: I agree that it is important to evaluate both opinions and claims of fact in the entire context in which they are given. Excellent point. Posts: 14017 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
pooka - even if he was acquited, the complaints would still exist. Even here, he would likely be convicted, just of a misdemeanor. The minimal consequences of conviction stem from the nature of the charge, not the likelihood of conviction. Knowing about the complaints helps Kat judge the threat level.
posted
Nope, the mere fact a complaint was filed in an unrelated incident wouldn't be admissible. Even if the original complainant could testify, that might not be admissible. I can't go into more detail because I take that class next semester.
posted
I think the standards for evidence in civil cases differ; e.g., I think hearsay may be ruled as admissible, unlike in criminal cases (for the most part -- e.g., possibly excepting deathbed accounts, etc?). I am not sure, as this is far out of my depth, but I'll try to look it up.
posted
if you do get mace on your keychain, remember, its not going to do you the least bit of good if its in your purse, or somewhere not in your hand if he bothers you. If you get it, CARRY IT. In your HAND. Otherwise, don't expect the least measure of protection to result from it. And if you have long hair, keep it in some not-easily-grabbed hairstyle. Hair is a great thing to grab. (I got these and many other protection measures drilled into my head during the serial killer thing. They're good to remember)
Posts: 3493 | Registered: Jul 2001
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You certainly were calm and brave and over all fabulous! I'm not sure I could have done the same.
I guess there is one positive thing to come out of this - that guy tries anyone else, you let Hatrack know, and before you know it there will be a Hatrack army converging on his position.
((((Kat))))
It does make me mad though, that women are made so vulnerable just because we're women. Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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I have a friend who was traveling across the country to visit her husband stationed on the East Coast. At a certain gas station, she felt strongly impressed to buy a baseball bat. That night, she came in late to a hotel. The hotel manager was very *friendly* offering to carry her bags in for her. She politely turned down his offer. More than once he brought up excuses to escort her to her room. She declined again.
She found her bedsheets to be dirty and called for hotel service to bring her fresh sheets. Who should show up at her door but the hotel manager. He came in and lingered, trying to make conversation, standing very close to her. Her newly purchased baseball bat was not far in the corner, and she glanced at it. He saw what she was looking at, backed away, and left the room.
Eh, take it how you will. A baseball bat would be nice to have, but supposedly any weapon you have can be used against you also. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hi--delurking to suggest you read "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin deBecker. His main point in keeping yourself safe is that you need to honor your instincts in all cases.
He also wrote a great book about keeping children safe titled "Protecting the Gift."
I'm sorry that happened to you but glad it didn't turn out worse.
Posts: 3 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
In the state of Texas, if you are carrying a baseball bat and not headed to practice or a game, you will be arrested for carrying a weapon.
Ironic but true. You can walk down the street with a loaded shotgun... if you are going to a skeet range. You can't walk down the street with a stick larger than a certain size (I want to say 14 inches) unless you can show a specific, immediate, non-weapon, use for it.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Tres, it's very sweet that you think that way. I fervently hope that you never have to lose that innocence.
Nobody HAS to surrender to their fears, though. In fact, even if you have already "lost your innocence," as you put it, I think you can get it back by resisting things like the urge to protect yourself absolutely from everything. Things like traumas can push you to give in, but I believe people can resist effectively, especially if helped by friends.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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Why does the need to protect one's self need to be resisted? Are you suggesting that it is paranoid for a woman to know how to defend herself? I'd really like to know what is so wrong or paranoid about Kat (or anyone) taking steps to protect themselves against this or other kinds of assault, which are all too real in the world we inhabit. Spending a couple of nights a week learning to fight, or safely own, care for, and shoot a firearm is immediately going to turn a person into Batman.
I'd turn the question back on you-- what is it that *you* are so afraid of?
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
There is nothing at all wrong with being safe, or taking precautions, or learning to protect oneself. But there IS something wrong with taking fear and precaution to the extreme - doing things like moving, carrying a gun, or worrying yourself silly that do more to harm and endanger you more than protect you. What *I* am afraid of is that, if katharina (or others) really took some of this advice seriously, she'd hurt herself or others and place herself in unnecessary risk. I've seen that happen often, in reaction to things far lesser than this.
posted
Yes, again and again the police, the courts, people's families, society as a whole, will tell women, "you're overreacting, you're the problem, don't make waves, there's nothing we can do, oh poor guy, it's not his fault, anyone can make a mistake," etc.
Girls are constantly assaulted and killed. It happens with great frequency. Most college campuses have one or two a year that make the news, and several that don't. Most large cities have dozens a year. How many is acceptable before it would be okay in your mind for women to use force in response?
Women should not rely on anyone other than themselves to keep them safe. Historically, that just doesn't work. Given that the risk is real, which lives are we more comfortable putting at risk?
Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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posted
Well, aside from the shotgun, I think the "big brother justice" ideas and mess-with-the-guy-to-intimidate him ideas are the sorts of things that are likely to lead to more trouble than protection. I'd also be very wary of the more general notion that she should change her personality in any way to be "tougher".
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I thought it was pretty clear that the big brother idea was mostly a joke. In case anyone didn't take it that way, I'll reiterate - the vigilante justice is bad. OK?
As for becoming tougher, it depends on what she means by that. If it means not buying into societal ideals that women are supposed to want everyone to like them, then I think it's a good thing.
posted
I'm not accepting that I'm "overreacting" and need to be understanding. A stranger has been watching me and entered my apartment without permission and put his hands on me. This is not acceptable behavior. This is my home and I have the right to be and feel safe in it. The danger is not something imagined; it HAPPENED.
You can say that protecting myself is over the top when you can guaruntee my safety. Social contract - you want the women to be calm and polite, you make damn sure they never suffer evil consequences from it. I've been polite, and someone took it as permission to invade my privacy and endanger my person.
I'm not going to get a gun. I refuse to shoot someone, so there's no point. I will get pepper spray or something, and I'll do whatever it takes to make sure he knows that even blinking in my direction is completely unacceptable.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Watch out with pepper spray, if you're forced to use it inside your home then you really will have to move out (trust me on this, I've used it before and you don't want to be anywhere around it even if it's pointed the other direction). Is there any other non-violent type weapon that's possible?
posted
Oh, maybe. I'm not relying on that, though. I think the police officer saying "Don't mess with her." will be more effective.
-----
You know what the saddest part of this is? I didn't want to be wary of my neighbors...
I live in a nice apartment in a sketchy part of town, but my apartment complex is mostly families. I KNOW that's why defenses were down enough to leave the door open. I remember the thought crossing my mind that he's got a teenage daughter, and I didn't want to be the Anglo princess. So, I was polite. Apparently that was "confusing."
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
a cattle prod (seriously) or tazer, I s'pose...
but, in case anyone hasn't been able to tell, I think the idea of non-violent, or even "measured response" reactions against violent people are not effective.
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Put Slash in charge, and fill the ranks with righteous men who carry the Wrath of the Lord in their eyes. Mind you, I'm not for vigilante justice, just a bit of a reminder to walk straight.
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