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I got my youngest son hooked on the LOTR trilogy a few years back and he just recently finished the Hobbit and started reading the Quenta Silmarilion. He had a question for me, he asked me what the names of the various Nazguls were. I couldn't remember off-hand so I looked and I could only find one: Khamul, the Easterling. Apparently he was second in command after the Witch King. I searched on the internet and found some other names like Er-Murazor and Dwar, but I don't think these are real names given by Tolkien, they were invented by some LOTR themed board/card game in the 80s. Does anyone have the legitimate names of the Nazguls?
posted
That's a very good question. I have no idea. I checked my LOTR index just a minute ago for you and found nothing. I don't think Tolkien ever specifically mentioned their names, they were just simply the Nazgűl.
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posted
The answer to the question lies in "The Histories of Middle Earth" by Christopher Tolien if anywhere. I have a feeling that beyond Angmar, Khamul, and Gothmog (who might be an orc) I don't think Tolkien came up with final names for the other Nine. However there might be experimental names listed in his notes.
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posted
Gothmog was the name of Morgoth's (not Sauron's, the Balrogs were never really subordinate to anyone but Morgoth) highest-ranking Balrog. For those few non-Tolkien geeks out there, Balrogs are actually the same ultimate-group type beings as Sauron; but Sauron was substantially more powerful.
Gothmog was one of the Balrogs who struck down Feanor, and I think he also dragged back Hurin Thalion to be tortured for years and years by Morgoth.
I think Gothmog was also the name of at least one Orc, and a Nazgul.
Edit: Angmar was the name of the realm ruled by the 'Witch-King', whose chief enemies were the Dunedain, many years before the events in LotR. The Witch-King was in fact the chief of the Nazgul. I don't think Angmar was his name, but was rather the name of that kingdom.
I don't know that the Witch King ever even had a name aside from that, did he? I'm sure he must have done, of course, before he took the ring, but maybe the ring ate it up with the rest of him, and maybe it's long forgotten.
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posted
And the plural of Nazgul is Nazgul. I'm not entirely positive about the singular, but the plural is certainly Nazgul. "The Nine, the Nazgul, they are terrible."
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posted
According to the card game: The Witch King Ulaire Attea Ulaire Cantea Ulaire Otsea Ulaire Nertea Ulaire Nelya Ulaire Enquea Ulaire Toldea Ulaire Lemenya
But those aren't official. Posts: 4174 | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
If Tolkien were a modern writer, the stories of the Nazgul before they became Nazgul would make a fun spin-off series.
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In LOTR the line is, aprox., "And Gothmog, the lieutenant of Morgul, sent in the reserve forces onto the Pelennor..."
The desendents of both Light and Dark used old names, as we do. Grond was both the weapon of Morgoth and the great battering ram. Gothmod was the Lord of the Balrogs and this lieutenant of Morgul. Lorien was the name of the God of Dreams and the name of Galadriel's realm. Denethor was the name of a Sylvan-Elf King and the name for the last Ruling Steward. Etc, etc...
[ April 20, 2004, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Oh, and Balrogs were Maia (the name of the class of beings to which Jeff referred), the same as Istari (wizards), Sauron, and Melian. They were beings higher and more powerful than the elves, but below the Valar or gods. Istari were sort of special-case Maia, in that their powers were cloaked so that they could travel among elves and men as equals. They took on mortal bodies, so that they could treat with elves and men upon terms of equality. This allowed them to become confused, and subject to mortal weaknesses as well, so that they might turn away and forget their mission (to oppose Sauron).
It's not clear whether Melian also took on a mortal body, when she chose to marry an elf lord. The Balrog's bodies were partly made of shadow, as we have seen. I think Ungoliant was a Maia as well, and she had the body of an enormous spider (Shelob was just a lesser daughter of Ungoliant). So the question of how Maia acquire bodies, or what determines what form they take, is not clear.
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Ungoliant's origins are never explained. There is no evidence to suggest that she was Maia, except that she was powerful. In fact, she could be as powerful as a Valar. She *almost* killed Melkor, and the wound she gave him never healed.
I like to think that she was not Maia, but something else. Something not understood.
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posted
Actually, in one sense those're very official nazgul names. All those names mean are third nazgul, seventh nazgul, that sort of thing.
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Do not forget, Maiar are ALL the spirits that came into Ea that are not Valar. Often we only think of the Maiar as those spirits who follow the Valar around all day in Valinor. There are also dryads, sylphs, Eagles, Ents, Tom Bombadill, River-Daughter, Wizards, Ungoliant and her children.
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....and many Maiar were almost equal in power to some of the Valar: Sauron, the Balrogs, Ungoliant, Arien...
Tolkien said that Ungoliant was a spirit of darkness... and that she joined Melkor/Morgoth's side in the first great wars, but early on went her own way...
[ April 20, 2004, 03:00 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Ainur means "Holy One", and is the name of the "spirit race". So all Valar and Maiar are Ainur.
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What it really comes down to is that these categories are not clearly laid out by Tolkien. Some things are explicitly stated, like Balrogs being valar, but some are not,like the river daughter being a valar.
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Much in Tolkien is misty or vague, but many things in this field at least can be explained with precision. The word Balrog is a Sindarin version of the original Quenya word Valaraukar, which means "demons of power". Comes from the Quenya word for power, vala, which is also the name for the Gods: The Powers. So, long story short, Balrogs are not gods/Valar, they are Maiar. They are spirits of fire that turned traitor and followed Morgoth.
Every Maiar spirit had a function of some kind… and that function determined what Vala they followed, or perhaps it was the other way around. In any event, Goldberry was not a mortal nor an Elf. Thus the only logical choice is a Maiar in the train of Ulmo, god of water.
Again I will say that not all Maiar stayed in Valinor as part of the court of the Valar. Many of the Maiar were out and about in the world, helping the Valar to maintain the forces of Nature. When not a current of water or a breeze in the wind the Maiar in the world became Ents or Eagles. Some Maiar when "native", that is stopped taking direct command from the Valar and just lived on their own, doing their own thing as they wished. Like Tom and Goldberry… and even Radagast.
[ April 20, 2004, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Rakeesh, you said Gothmog was one of the Balrogs who struck down Feanor, not so, he was the only one, Feanor was untouched by the others, in fact he slew seven, but Gothmog was the only one to actually get his flamy little hands on Feanor.
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posted
Actually, Ungoliant was at least as powerful as Morgoth at the point when they tangled. It was pretty clear that, had Morgoth's Balrog's not come to his rescue, Morgoth and his plunder would've been devoured by Ungoliant.
Of course, Morgoth had already expended a great deal of his power in his attempts at tyranny, and Ungoliant had already devoured numerous Noldorin jewels, AND the Two Trees. So she was kinda buffed up.
Given the emphasis Tolkien places on Ungoliant being a Devourer, I've always thought of her kind of like Entropy. She has no purpose, she has no goal, other than gluttony on everything that isn't herself.
Tolkien never explicitly stated, "These are all the creatures that populate Arda." He was in the process of making radical changes up until his death, after all. I'm pretty sure Tolkien included Bombadil more as a spirit of England kind of thing, something extra, not necessarily so cleanly woven in with everything else.
I think you're right about Gothmog, Rhaegar. Nevertheless, it took many Balrogs to wear Feanor down. Now Fingolfin, though, there was an Noldo. Took the Prime Evil Himself to do Fingolfin in.
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posted
Indeed, Fingolfin is my homeboy. And I think your look at Ungoliant is quite accurate, but couldn't she also be compared to Anubis or Loki say?
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I've heard again and again that Radagast and the other two wizards who remain unnamed fell by the wayside, forgot their missions, and did not perform their duties as the Valar had requested, but I want to point out that we do not know any such thing. I personally am loth to assume the Valar chose so badly as that, that four out of five of their choices went awry.
Instead, I think how much of the power and light and workings of the world are beyond the ken of men and elves, and of how little importance we count them, due to our extreme ignorance. The powers of darkness affected the entire animal kingdom, and the whole of the world. This would mean the lives of rocks and mountains, the soil, and the myriad small denizons therein, the earth's winds, the birds and the skies, the deep forests, the waters in the deep places underground, all these things would be touched by darkness, and the forces of health and wholeness would need to be rallied to fight the evil that Sauron brought. We see how the very earth was tortured and convulsed in his realm. I believe that Radagast and the other two wizards were more concerned with these things, leaving Gandalf and Saruman to treat with men and elves.
Why then were all five of them cloaked in men's bodies? Perhaps those were the least powerful bodies which would still leave them with sufficient of mentality and spirit with which to pursue their quest. I don't believe they all failed, though. I think of all the five, only Saruman went astray. The others accomplished much good in their own domains, and indeed, had these struggles been lost, even though men and elves managed to destroy Sauron in the end, yet would the earth never have recovered its full vigor and fertility.
So say not that they went astray. Say rather that they accomplished much good in realms we know not of.
[ April 20, 2004, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
Yes, Radagast was the one who sent Gwahir to check on Gandalf, who just happened to be trapped on top of Orthanc. After that, though, he seems to sort of disappear.
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quote:Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit.
In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:
In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves. When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.
To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."
As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:
There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."
Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.
quote:Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.
When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.
It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time.
and of course I can see the obvious question coming, what the heck would Aule be doing in the shire?!
quote:As far as Yavanna is concerned, she is probably just visiting with growing things and vacationing with her husband. Aule, on the other hand, is probably there for the purpose of studying Hobbits. We should not forget that of all the Valar Aule was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.
posted
Now wait a minute. I know it's been a long time since I read the Silmarillion, but I thought both the ents and the eagles were not Maiar, but rather creations of the Valar. Didn't Aule's wife (Yavanna?) create the ents as a response to Aule's creation of the dwarves? And I thought the eagles were created by Manwe. I could be wrong on that one, but I'm pretty darn sure about the ents.
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posted
Being something of a Tolkien fan myself, I understand the impulse to want to make everything in the books fit a consistent mythology, but I don't think Tom Bombadil does. The way I understand things, Tolkien originally started writing The Lord of the Rings as a sequel to The Hobbit, which was a lighter, more childlike work. There are a number of inconsistencies between The Hobbit and the later parts of LotR, such as trolls that speak with Cockney accents. The character of Bombadil aligns much more closely with the tone of The Hobbit. After writing the beginning of Fellowship, Tolkien then took a long break, and when he came back he wrote the rest of the story as a sequel to the notes that became The Silmarillion.
It makes even more sense when you know that Tom Bombadil was named after a doll that belonged to a young relative of Tolkien's (possibly his son?) that had a bright blue coat and yellow boots.
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"And even in a mythical Age there must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (intentionally)."
—The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 144, dated 1954
This site goes into the whole issue in pretty good detail. The conclusion: the evidence is inconclusive. Nobody knows who Tom Bombadil is.
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posted
Another point, the Eagles are the chief servants of Manwe, king of the gods. So whenever we see an Eagle it means divine intervention.
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BrianM, I love that essay - it really made me think. In fact, I came in here specifically to link to it - but I'm glad to see that someone else has read it, too, and was in fact faster than me!
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Little known fact: Tolkien began work on what would be the Middle-Earth world in trenches in WWI, if not earlier. (Well, little known elsewhere )
Tolkien started writing LotR (those works specifically) because the Hobbit had been a success, and there was a clamor for sequels. After some difficulty deciding what else Hobbits might do, he decided to weave the Hobbit even further into his pre-existing mythology.
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Jon Boy: Though noone knows for sure who/what Tom is, it can be largely deduced that Tolkien wanted people to try and guess his indentity as an element of sensationalism in the stories. The only opposing point to Tom being Aule is when the Council of Elrond meets they discuss giving the Ring to him, but Glorfindel says "the strength to defy the enemy is not within him," this does not necessarily mean he is not Aule, just that on Arda Sauron may be able to best him in combat, just as Tulkas was able to do to Melkor/Melko/Morgoth who was supposed to be the strongest Ainur, yet it didn't translate into combative strength down on Arda. Even Huan, the Hound of Valinor, was able to defeat Morgoth's strongest Wolves, Draugluin and Carcharoth, and even Sauron himself in werewolf form! Besides, Aule is non-combative: he was the first Valar to stop singing when Melkor came in and started bellowing instead of trying to compete with him. Aule is very pacifistic.
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quote:It isn't inconceivable, then, that Tom is one of the fourteen known Valar, dwelling incognito in Middle-earth. Though we can't be certain, it seems likely that a Vala would be capable of resisting the power of the Ring, and so that difficulty can be set aside. The 'Vala Hypothesis', though, is not without difficulties of its own, with perhaps the most significant being:
"'Eldest, that's what I am... Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn... He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside.'" The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil
All of the beings who became Valar existed before Arda was made, so any of them could with justification claim the title 'Eldest'. But Tom says he 'knew the dark under the stars' (that is, he was in the World, not outside it) 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside'. The term 'Dark Lord' is uncertain here - it might apply to either Melkor or Sauron, and both originally came from 'Outside' the World. If he means Melkor, then this is very significant: consider this description of the entry of the Valar into the World, from the original conception of the Silmarillion:
"Now swiftly as they fared, Melko was there before them..." The Book of Lost Tales, Part I, III The Coming of the Valar and the Building of Valinor
'They' here refers to Manwë and Varda, who were explicitly the first Valar to enter Arda apart from Melko (Melkor). In Tolkien's original conception, then (and there is nothing in the published Silmarillion to contradict this) Melkor was the first being from 'Outside' to enter the World, and yet Tom suggests that he was already here when Melkor arrived!
Admittedly Tom may be referring to Sauron, who must have come to Arda after these great ones, but the phrase 'before the Dark Lord came from Outside' seems to make more sense if he means Melkor (that is, he is referring to an event of cosmic significance, and a specific point in the World's history, which isn't the case with Sauron).
This is only one of the objections to the Vala theory. Another, for example, is that characters who we would expect to recognize a Vala living in their midst (especially Gandalf) don't apparently do so.
posted
I can't find it but in a letter Tolkien said he was specifically referring to Sauron's death and spiritual exile from and then return to Arda after the destruction of Numenor.
The reason Maia wouldn't recognize him is one, none of Aule's own personal Maia ever deal with Tom, and the difference in power between even the greatest Maiar and the weakest Valar is enormous. A Valar would be able to disguise himself easily.
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