The more you expound on this theory the less likely it becomes.
First, you insist in maintaining that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia, with no textual evidence at all. The only textual evidence to date says he was the mightiest of Morgoth's followers, not of all the Maia.
Second, the only evidence you have that speaks directly to whether or not Tom is a Valar is the power comparison, which, again, you've provided know evidence for. In fact, there's no reason for Tom to be Aule as opposed to any other of the male Vala except for specific statements that exclude some (such as Manwe). His actions are as inconsistent with the descriptions we have of Aule's nature as they are of Tulkas.
Third, there's no indication that Tom making the ring disappear was anything more than a parlor trick. The act does not have to contain ANY metaphorical significance about relative power.
Fourth, a nature spirit does not have to set have bounds set by nature - there's no reason a wandering spirit couldn't decide to settle down.
Fifth, the Vala held council and selected the Istari, and Aule specifically selected Saruman. This happened while Tom was in Middle Earth. (This essay is in The Book of Lost Tales and is the basis for most of the linked essay above. This is also where the idea that only Gandalf remained faithful comes from.)
Sixth, there's NOTHING to indicate that Tom is Aule, or that Tolkein intended Tom to be Aule. Everything you've said is selective comparison, which can be applied to almost anyone. I could make just as convincing a case that he's Manwe, or Orome, or another Maia, or even Tulkas resting after his many battles, unwilling to do battle again, or just a nature spirit. These "coincidences" ignore Aule's nature as a smith and amount to little more than "he's married to someone who likes nature."
Finally, you're whole argument that he "must" be a Valar stems from this quote:
quote:Tom cannot be anything less than a Valar. This is because Sauron is the most powerful Maiar, the Ring is Sauron's power condensed. Therefore noone less powerful than Sauron can do the things Tom did to the Ring. If it was just resisting the Ring's desire then maybe, but Tom exerted such mastery over the Ring that he must be a Valar and the one that most fits is Aule.
There is no evidence whatsoever that this requires great power - in fact, it is the more powerful people that have the most to fear from the ring. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam all resist for a long time - even though Gollum is evil from the beginning, the ring never manages to force it to its will. Meanwhile, Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel are scared to touch the ring, not because they fear being dominated by Sauron but because they fear taking his place.
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For all those who claim Tolkien meant Tom is not meant to be a metaphor and that he shouldn't be read into, shame on you! I finally found the excerpt from the letter I read which completely turns that
quote:. . . [Tom] is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular emboding of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly entirely unconcerned with 'doing' annulling with the knowledge: Zoology and Botany, not Cattle-breeding or Agriculture. (Letters, p. 192; see also, p. 174) As the exemplification of pure science, Tom could hardly be nonrational. Tom's purity, moreover, stems from his desire to delight in things as they are, without dominating and controlling them. The former is the aim of pure science, the latter the essential aims of applied science. Tom's knowledge of nature allows him to control nature when necessary, but because such control is not his aim, he is more akin to science and engineering.
This is again singling out the most devout creator and inquisitive minds of the Valar: Aule.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dagonee: you are taking much of what I said out of context and assigning quite a bit of my statements new meanings which I did not give them.
quote:First, you insist in maintaining that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia, with no textual evidence at all. The only textual evidence to date says he was the mightiest of Morgoth's followers, not of all the Maia.
First off I did provide a link to a site on this issue, but if you don't think it's official enough - which i know it may very well not be - then I can simply answer that i do not need to prove that Sauron was the most powerful Maiar to hold up my argument. The fact that you claim I do need to demonstrates your misunderstanding. For you see, even if I couldn't prove that Sauron was absolutely the most powerful Maiar, he still was one of the most powerful as has been acknwoledged by everyone here. The complimentary point to this is that there is nothing to suggest that Tom is an Maia that does not lend even more credence to him being a Vala (ie: control-singing as opposed to the Istari's usual chanting, references to his age and power in lieu of various possible Dark Lord, etc.) . No, if Tom is one of the Ainur the facts steer very clearly away from the possibility of a Maia and directly toward Aule, and by the end of this post you will see exactly why.
quote:Second, the only evidence you have that speaks directly to whether or not Tom is a Valar is the power comparison, which, again, you've provided know evidence for. In fact, there's no reason for Tom to be Aule as opposed to any other of the male Vala except for specific statements that exclude some (such as Manwe). His actions are as inconsistent with the descriptions we have of Aule's nature as they are of Tulkas.
First off the evidence is the text that seems to be almost common knowledge here at hatrack and that we've all been quoting on this thread. However, if you really demand a fully transcribed online text I suggest you handle that morally and legally ambivalent task on your own. The reasons that Tom a Vala as opposed to a Maia: -1"If we take Tom's remark quite literally that he "was here before the river and the trees. . .the first raindrop and the first acorn" (Rings, 1:142), he is saying either that he was in Middle-earth when the Valar arrived or that he arrived as one of the Valar. His remark that "he knew the dark under ths stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside" refers to the time before Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, had officially turned renegade - the time when the "old" or original stars were made. Since the world was incomplete at that time and nothing lived on the earth except the Valar, it is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala."
2-"Finally, there is Tom's singing. Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it."
3-One interesting hint that Tom is a Vala may be tucked away in the confusing claim that Tom is "the oldest" even though Treebeard is at the same time supposed to be "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun." In The Road to Middle-earth, published in 1982, T. A. Shipley, who considers Tom "a one-member category," struggles with this "inconsistency" and concludes that the claim that Treebeard is the oldest living thing, if true, implies that Tom is not alive, just as the Nazgul are not dead (p. 82). Although the analogy is most likely not correct, it is suggestive. The word living probably means minimally that Fangorn is biotic, that is, an element belonging to the living system of the earth, the biosphere. There were in fact two classes of beings "living" in Middle-earth, who, as beings from outside of Ea, were not part of this system: the Valar and their servants, the Maiar. Their bodies were "veils" or "raiment," appearances, in which they were self-incarnated (Road Goes Ever On, p. 66). As noted in the essay, "Istari," in Unfinished Tales (p. 389), the Maiar who became the wizards of Middle-earth - and who had the same nature as the Valar - were converted to living beings temporarily by the special consent of Iluvatar: "For with the consent of Eru they ... [were] clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain. . . ." The need for this conversion suggests that the Valar and Maiar were indeed nonliving, but in a manner very different from the Nazgul. Whereas the Ringwraiths were former living beings who were kept in existence unnaturally through the power of their rings in association with the One Ring, the Valar and Maiar were beings from another plane of existence (the Void) who, as a result, did not completely fit into the world of Middle-earth. Instead, of placing Tom in an anomalous category of one, or associating him with the undead, Shipley's "inconsistency" may simply be a hint that Tom has extraterrestrial status as a Vala
4- "The problem [with Tom being a Maia] is that there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character. It is only when one turns to the Valar themselves that potential candidates emerge."
And as to all the arguments about the way a Vala should act and whatnot: "Someone might, of course, want to object that Tom Bombadil really doesn't look or act like a Vala or a Maia, appearing and behaving instead more like an overgrown Hobbit. I submit, however, to the contrary, that there is no particular way that the Valar and Maiar were supposed to look. Rather they appeared in whatever way they chose, wearing their "veils" or "raiment" in a manner similar to the way we wear clothing. In "The Voice of Saruman," for example, Gimli tells Gandalf that he wants to see Saruman so he can compare the two wizards. In mused response, Gandalf informs Gimli that there is no way for him to make such a comparison meaningfully, since Saruman can alter his appearance at will as it suits his purpose (Rings, 2:181-82). Rather than decreasing the possibility that Tom is a Vala, his hobbitish appearance actually increases it, for it suggests that Tom has the ability to "fit" his surroundings. If a Vala wanted to visit with Hobbits, he would, of course, appear to them in a manner that was somewhat humorous and familiar, thereby, putting them at ease. In this way, it can be argued that Tom's Hobbit-like appearance counts in favor of him being a Vala or a Maia, not against it."
Warrants for Tom being Aule: 1- "Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit.
In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:
In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves. When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.
To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."
As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:
There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."
Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.
Of course, an important problem with this hypothesis is the claim that Goldberry is the Riverwoman's daughter. If the story is true, then Goldberry cannot be Yavanna. However, there are many things said in Rings that are not true literally and many matters are left unrevealed or unexplained. For instance, it was believed by many people that Rohan was selling horses to Mordor. Gandalf never reveals that he is a Maia. The eagles are never revealed as Maiar (though they are "Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles" who "could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world" (Silmarillion, p. 35). As is clear from "The Hunt for the Ring," in Unfinished Tales, many details are presented in a confused and unconnected way in Rings, because that is how they appeared to the people who wrote the book. There are, finally, two accounts given by Tolkien of the origins of the Orcs, both of which cannot be true. Thus, the fact that some people believe that Goldberry is Riverwoman's Daughter does not absolutely, literally have to be true."
2- "Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.
When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.
It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time."
And here are some answers to your questions about what would Aule, or even one of his manifestations, being doing in this area and why doesn't Aule help out with the Ring problem? "If Tom is Aule, however, two other questions need to be answered. First of all, what are he and Yavanna doing in the Old Forest to begin with? As far as Yavanna is concerned, she is probably just visiting with growing things and vacationing with her husband. Aule, on the other hand, is probably there for the purpose of studying Hobbits. We should not forget that of all the Valar Aule was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.
Second, if he is Aule, and he is such a fine and wonderful god, why doesn't he choose to be more helpful? Put another way, why isn't there power in him to fight the enemy? The answer to this question is simpler than one might at first imagine. When Ulmo rises from the sea in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" to give instructions to Tuor, who is supposed to deliver a message to the Elves of Gondolin, he hurries with his directions fearing that his own servant Osse will hurl a wave upon the shore and drown his emissary. As he puts it in Unfinished Tales (p. 30): "Go now. . . lest the Sea devour thee! For Osse obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom." Although Ulmo's actions are contrary to the will of the rest of the Valar that even his own servant will not help him (and is actually prepared to act against him), Ulmo, nevertheless, insists that he is not really opposing the other Valar, but rather is merely doing his "part":
... though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. (p. 29)
The key phrase is "to which I was appointed ere the making of the World." First, it makes it clear that Ulmo is not acting defiantly at all, merely following orders, just as his servant would be following orders if he hurled up a wave and killed Tuor. Second, it refers to the time of the song which created the world. It is this song, I believe, that contains the conflicting instructions both Ulmo and Osse are following, different parts, elements, or themes of the whole. If I am correct, then Ulmo's power to help the Elves is both limited by and partially determined by the Music of the Ainur, insofar as it established the existence of the earth and determined its major events. While Ulmo may have had free will as he sang his part of the song in those distant times, he is now bound by what he sang and cannot go beyond or change his part. If Tom is Aule, then he too is bound by his part in the song and although sympathetic and concerned, he can only help the Hobbits and the Free Peoples of the West in little ways. This account of Tom as Aule is not really inconsistent with Tolkien's claim that Tom has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty" and that he exemplifies "a natural pacifist view." At the time of the singing of the Great Music, it is true that Aule, along with most of the other Holy Ones, eventually stopped singing, leaving Melkor to sing on alone. However, they did not stop because Melkor's thunderous and discordant singing defeated them, but rather because they did not wish to compete with him and considered the song spoiled by his behavior. It was not defeat, since obviously by singing together the others could have overcome him. Rather it was a rejection of the conflict itself - hence, a pacifist position. It was indeed the Third Theme sung by Iluvatar, representing the part of the Children of Iluvatar, that was to overcome Melkor's disruption. Concerning the "vow of poverty," Aule has indeed taken such a vow - as exemplified by his attitude toward his work and the work of others - his lack of excessive pride, jealousy, and possessiveness.
In contrast, if Tom is a nature spirit, then no vow of poverty has been taken, and there is no natural pacifist view. According to the nature spirit thesis, as Veryln Flieger puts it in Splintered Light, published in 1983: "Tom Bombadil, on whom the Ring has no effect, is a natural force, a kind of earth spirit, and so the power over the will which the Ring exerts simply has no meaning for him" (p. 128, note). As a natural force, Tom has the same status as a falling rock or the wind or the rain - he is blind activity with no direction or purpose. As such he is not a moral agent, and cannot therefore make moral decisions. The moral dimension is thus completely absent. Tom is immune to the influence of the ring not because of his high moral character, but because he is not capable of having a moral character at all.
If Tom is Aule, however, there is a moral dimension, indeed, a heightened one, for Tom's appearance in the story, although only a "comment," serves as a sharp and clear contrast to the two evil Maiar, Sauron and Saruman, both of whom were once his servants before turning to evil and darkness. Unlike their former master, these two followed the ways of Melkor, envy, jealousy, excessive pride, and the desire to possess and control. As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aule, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession. In fact, in terms of the moral traits that most fascinated Tolkien both as an author and as a scholar, Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's moral ideal."
About the Ring thing being a parlour trick, perhaps that would be possible if it were a normal ring, but making the Ring of Power dissappear is no parlour trick. And even if I grant you that it is a "parlour trick," being able to see Frodo with it on is certainly no parlour trick and certainly not a "trick" within the realm of a Maia like Gandalf let alone a supposed nature spirit.
I have presented sepcific arguments of my own and from the essay I linked to. Specific text references have been made and the comparissons are very specific toward Aule. I have actually been doing this for this entire thread, so another generic reply of "I'm simply making general claims and not providing evidence" is going to be rather tedious, ok?
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I just remembered the most absolute of all my reasons! I think it's so great that it requires its own post.
When someone puts the Ring on they basically go invisible in the *normal* dimension and while they can still somewhat see and act and move around coherently in it, they become primarily visible in the Void. The LOTR peter Jackson movie did a good job of demonstrating this effect of Frodo wearing the Ring around the Ring-Wraiths. Only Ainur or Ainur-indoctrinated spirits can see into and certainly only they can be in this realm. (in Frodo's case Sauron took him there through Sauron's presonal presence IN the Ring itself.) For Tom to be able to see Frodo when he put on the Ring is probably as near absolute proof by itself as your going to get on this subject of Tom being an Ainur. Once we establish that he is an Ainur you can see the above long post for specifics on narrowing that down further. But hey, even if you don't buy this there are plenty of reasons above why Tom is a Vala and not a Maia, and I have not heard one single competitive argument on this thread for why he should be assumed a Maia and NOT a Vala.
At the risk of my son calling me a LOTR nerd, I am going to stop and get some breakfast, and get in what little snowmachining is left this week up here.
quote:Dagonee: you are taking much of what I said out of context and assigning quite a bit of my statements new meanings which I did not give them.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First, you insist in maintaining that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia, with no textual evidence at all. The only textual evidence to date says he was the mightiest of Morgoth's followers, not of all the Maia.
First off I did provide a link to a site on this issue, but if you don't think it's official enough - which i know it may very well not be - then I can simply answer that i do not need to prove that Sauron was the most powerful Maiar to hold up my argument. The fact that you claim I do need to demonstrates your misunderstanding. For you see, even if I couldn't prove that Sauron was absolutely the most powerful Maiar, he still was one of the most powerful as has been acknwoledged by everyone here. The complimentary point to this is that there is nothing to suggest that Tom is an Maia that does not lend even more credence to him being a Vala (ie: control-singing as opposed to the Istari's usual chanting, references to his age and power in lieu of various possible Dark Lord, etc.) . No, if Tom is one of the Ainur the facts steer very clearly away from the possibility of a Maia and directly toward Aule, and by the end of this post you will see exactly why.
I don’t believe he was a Maia, either, so this isn’t really relevant.
quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second, the only evidence you have that speaks directly to whether or not Tom is a Valar is the power comparison, which, again, you've provided know evidence for. In fact, there's no reason for Tom to be Aule as opposed to any other of the male Vala except for specific statements that exclude some (such as Manwe). His actions are as inconsistent with the descriptions we have of Aule's nature as they are of Tulkas. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off the evidence is the text that seems to be almost common knowledge here at hatrack and that we've all been quoting on this thread. However, if you really demand a fully transcribed online text I suggest you handle that morally and legally ambivalent task on your own. The reasons that Tom a Vala as opposed to a Maia: -1"If we take Tom's remark quite literally that he "was here before the river and the trees. . .the first raindrop and the first acorn" (Rings, 1:142), he is saying either that he was in Middle-earth when the Valar arrived or that he arrived as one of the Valar. His remark that "he knew the dark under ths stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside" refers to the time before Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, had officially turned renegade - the time when the "old" or original stars were made. Since the world was incomplete at that time and nothing lived on the earth except the Valar, it is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala."
Well, first of all this would indicate he is Vala or Maia, not just Vala. It’s this exact kind of carelessness that undermines the careful web of coincidence you’re trying to weave.
Second, the dark was filled with fear during the time of Morgoth’s first dominion in Middle Earth, when Angband was merely a northern fortress and Utunmo (sp?) was his principle dwelling. This leaves lots of time between when the Valar removed themselves to Aman and the coming of the elves (or Ents, for that matter). Granted, taking “before the first raindrop and the first acorn literally causes problematic interpretations, but certainly Aule has no claim to be first over the rest of the Ainur. So this statement isn’t true even if he is Aule. Either he’s referring to being the first living (i.e., biotic) being or he’s lying. And if “here” refers to Middle Earth then it can’t literally be true, anyway.
quote:2-"Finally, there is Tom's singing. Tom's inability to separate song from his other activities, speaking, walking, working, suggests that it is very fundamental to his being in a profound way that distinguishes him from all other beings encountered in the trilogy. The wizards, for example, who are Maiar, chant (in the modern sense of the word) rather than sing, and never unconsciously. This continuous singing may be an indication of Tom's high status. The world was, after all, brought into existence by a group of singers, the Holy Ones, some of whom became Valar. Second, Tom's basic song is structurally related to Legolas' "Song of the Sea" (Rings, 3:234-35), suggesting the possibility that Tom's is a corruption of an original piece of music from the Uttermost West common to both. Third, Tom's songs, although seemingly comic and nonsensical, have power in them to control individual elements and things in the forest. When told that Old Man Willow is the cause of the Hobbits' problems, Tom replies, "that can soon be mended. I know the tune for him" (Ibid., 1:131), which I suggest means something like, 'don't worry. I have the plans for that thing and can fix it right away." This is the kind of knowledge that a Vala, who sang the Music, would likely have, and singing would be the natural way to apply it."[/quote[
Finrod sang to battle Sauron when he and Beren where captured, as did Sauron in that battle. Tom has been around since before the Elves arrived, some of them journeyed to Valinor, came back, and mostly left again. Of course he’s likely to have picked up such music. And here’s where the little facts really start to undermine your contention: Legolas never went to the Uttermost West.
[quote]3-One interesting hint that Tom is a Vala may be tucked away in the confusing claim that Tom is "the oldest" even though Treebeard is at the same time supposed to be "the oldest living thing that still walks beneath the Sun." In The Road to Middle-earth, published in 1982, T. A. Shipley, who considers Tom "a one-member category," struggles with this "inconsistency" and concludes that the claim that Treebeard is the oldest living thing, if true, implies that Tom is not alive, just as the Nazgul are not dead (p. 82). Although the analogy is most likely not correct, it is suggestive. The word living probably means minimally that Fangorn is biotic, that is, an element belonging to the living system of the earth, the biosphere. There were in fact two classes of beings "living" in Middle-earth, who, as beings from outside of Ea, were not part of this system: the Valar and their servants, the Maiar. Their bodies were "veils" or "raiment," appearances, in which they were self-incarnated (Road Goes Ever On, p. 66). As noted in the essay, "Istari," in Unfinished Tales (p. 389), the Maiar who became the wizards of Middle-earth - and who had the same nature as the Valar - were converted to living beings temporarily by the special consent of Iluvatar: "For with the consent of Eru they ... [were] clad in the bodies of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain. . . ." The need for this conversion suggests that the Valar and Maiar were indeed nonliving, but in a manner very different from the Nazgul. Whereas the Ringwraiths were former living beings who were kept in existence unnaturally through the power of their rings in association with the One Ring, the Valar and Maiar were beings from another plane of existence (the Void) who, as a result, did not completely fit into the world of Middle-earth. Instead, of placing Tom in an anomalous category of one, or associating him with the undead, Shipley's "inconsistency" may simply be a hint that Tom has extraterrestrial status as a Vala
Again, if Aule is Tom, and the two competing claims of being eldest are settled on classification, then Aule is lying, because the Ainur came in at the beginning of time (Tulkas excepted). Also, cladding ainur in flesh required the consent of Eru – it was a momentous event and seemingly unprecedented.
quote:4- "The problem [with Tom being a Maia] is that there is no Maia in the Silmarillion who matches Tom's general character. It is only when one turns to the Valar themselves that potential candidates emerge."
And as to all the arguments about the way a Vala should act and whatnot: "Someone might, of course, want to object that Tom Bombadil really doesn't look or act like a Vala or a Maia, appearing and behaving instead more like an overgrown Hobbit. I submit, however, to the contrary, that there is no particular way that the Valar and Maiar were supposed to look. Rather they appeared in whatever way they chose, wearing their "veils" or "raiment" in a manner similar to the way we wear clothing. In "The Voice of Saruman," for example, Gimli tells Gandalf that he wants to see Saruman so he can compare the two wizards. In mused response, Gandalf informs Gimli that there is no way for him to make such a comparison meaningfully, since Saruman can alter his appearance at will as it suits his purpose (Rings, 2:181-82). Rather than decreasing the possibility that Tom is a Vala, his hobbitish appearance actually increases it, for it suggests that Tom has the ability to "fit" his surroundings. If a Vala wanted to visit with Hobbits, he would, of course, appear to them in a manner that was somewhat humorous and familiar, thereby, putting them at ease. In this way, it can be argued that Tom's Hobbit-like appearance counts in favor of him being a Vala or a Maia, not against it."
OK, so we don’t know what a Vala acts like. Therefore, these conjectures can at best overcome objections, not provide concrete evidence in favor of the theory.
The claim that no known Maia fit the bill is equally irrelevant, since we’re told that only a few “come into the tales.” There are also many more Maia than Vala, and there seems to be a much greater variety. Therefore, there seems to be NO evidence favoring Vala over Maia.
quote:Warrants for Tom being Aule: 1- "Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit.
In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:
In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves. When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.
To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."
As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:
There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."
Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance.
Of course, an important problem with this hypothesis is the claim that Goldberry is the Riverwoman's daughter. If the story is true, then Goldberry cannot be Yavanna. However, there are many things said in Rings that are not true literally and many matters are left unrevealed or unexplained. For instance, it was believed by many people that Rohan was selling horses to Mordor. Gandalf never reveals that he is a Maia. The eagles are never revealed as Maiar (though they are "Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles" who "could see to the depths of the seas, and pierce the hidden caverns beneath the world" (Silmarillion, p. 35). As is clear from "The Hunt for the Ring," in Unfinished Tales, many details are presented in a confused and unconnected way in Rings, because that is how they appeared to the people who wrote the book. There are, finally, two accounts given by Tolkien of the origins of the Orcs, both of which cannot be true. Thus, the fact that some people believe that Goldberry is Riverwoman's Daughter does not absolutely, literally have to be true."
OK, she wears green and loves nature. Again, she could easily be a Maia (see above). Further, she could really be the Riverwoman’s daughter.
quote:2- "Just as Goldberry is very similar to Yavanna, Aule the Smith, shares many common characteristics with Tom and this identification helps explain some of the events that occur in Tom's house - especially his control over the ring without any fear or temptation. Aule was the maker of all the substances of the earth: minerals, gems, and metals. During the creation of Middle-earth he was involved in nearly every aspect of its making. He prepared the sea beds to receive the waters of the ocean and prepared the land for plants and animals. As the Maker he developed and taught all arts, crafts, and skills. Of all the Valar, he had the greatest interest in the Children of Iluvatar. So impatient was he to see them that he made the Dwarves. According to the "Valaquenta" in the Silmarillion (p. 27), although Aule and Melkor were most like of all the Valar in thought and power, their attitudes toward the products of their labor and the labor of others were significantly different. While Melkor carefully guarded his works for himself and destroyed the works of others out of jealousy, Aule delighted in making, not possessing, and "he did not envy the works of others, but sought and gave counsel." It was, in fact, Aule's lack of possessiveness and his willingness to submit his work to the will of Iluvatar that saved the Dwarves from destruction and made it possible for them to receive the gift of free will from Iluvatar.
When one carefully considers the special moral characteristics of Aule, the similarities to Tom are most striking and revealing. Like Aule, Tom is not possessive. Although his power to dominate and control is always stressed - he is the master - he does not interfere with other beings except when they directly interfere with him. Although he has the power to possess whatever he may desire, he does not chose to possess or own the forest. As Goldberry explains, the animals, plants, and natural objects of the forest are all allowed to belong to themselves. This distain for ownership or possession is the reason why Tom is able to handle the ring without fear. Ultimately, all other powerful beings encountered in the trilogy, unless they are already fallen, are afraid to touch the ring lest the desire to possess it should turn them to evil. Since Tom does not want to own or possess anything, it has no power over him. We simply see his interest, curiosity, and delight as he studies the craftmanship involved in its making. Indeed, Tom approaches the ring critically, almost with scorn. While all others refer to the ring as precious in a reverent sense, Tom's use of the word, "Show me the precious ring" (Rings, 1:144), suggests irony or doubt about its value. Since the lack of desire to possess or own was extremely rare among the Valar and the beings of Middle-earth, no over Vala is said to exhibit this moral trait, it seems reasonable to assume that Tom and Aule are the same person.
Manwe desires to possess and control? Ulmo? Tulkas? Orome? This analysis is only relevant if there’s evidence Tom must be a Vala, which again comes down to his power over the ring.
quote:It is also important to note the tremendous power and control that Tom has over the ring. He is, first of all, able to overcome its normal effects. When he puts it on his finger, he does not become invisible. When Frodo puts it on his finger, Tom is still able to see Frodo: he is "not as blind as that yet" (Ibid.). Second, Tom is able with ease to use the ring in ways that were not intended by its maker, for he is able to make the ring itself disappear. (It is possible that Sauron himself might be unable to do this, for the ring embodied a great part of Sauron's own power, drained from him during its making.) Such power over the ring, displayed almost as a parlor trick, I submit, cannot be accounted for by classifying Tom Bombadil as an anomalous nature spirit. The ability to dominate the ring suggests a Vala; the ease with which it is dominated suggests the ultimate maker of all things in Middle-earth, Aule the Smith, of whom both Sauron and Saruman were mere servants in the beginning before time."
I always interpreted that scene as slight of hand or, at most, power to obscure. There’s zero evidence in the scene that the ring physically disappeared. It was hidden somehow, whether through some power over the material of the ring, power over the air between Frodo’s eyes and the ring, power over Frodo’s vision, or mere sleight of hand it doesn’t say. As Gandalf says, it’s not that he has power over the ring but that the ring has no power over him.
quote:And here are some answers to your questions about what would Aule, or even one of his manifestations, being doing in this area and why doesn't Aule help out with the Ring problem? "If Tom is Aule, however, two other questions need to be answered. First of all, what are he and Yavanna doing in the Old Forest to begin with? As far as Yavanna is concerned, she is probably just visiting with growing things and vacationing with her husband. Aule, on the other hand, is probably there for the purpose of studying Hobbits. We should not forget that of all the Valar Aule was the one most eager to see the Children of Iluvatar. He is also the only one to make sentient, rational beings of his own. Given his interest in such creatures, it is not unreasonable to assume that, like Gandalf, he found Hobbits fascinating. As Hobbit songs about Tom Bombadil suggest, moreover, he had plenty of contact with Hobbits in Buckland and the Marish, no doubt allowing ample opportunity for Hobbit study.
Second, if he is Aule, and he is such a fine and wonderful god, why doesn't he choose to be more helpful? Put another way, why isn't there power in him to fight the enemy? The answer to this question is simpler than one might at first imagine. When Ulmo rises from the sea in "Of Tuor and His Coming to Gondolin" to give instructions to Tuor, who is supposed to deliver a message to the Elves of Gondolin, he hurries with his directions fearing that his own servant Osse will hurl a wave upon the shore and drown his emissary. As he puts it in Unfinished Tales (p. 30): "Go now. . . lest the Sea devour thee! For Osse obeys the will of Mandos, and he is wroth, being a servant of the Doom." Although Ulmo's actions are contrary to the will of the rest of the Valar that even his own servant will not help him (and is actually prepared to act against him), Ulmo, nevertheless, insists that he is not really opposing the other Valar, but rather is merely doing his "part":
... though in the days of this darkness I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West, that is my part among them, to which I was appointed ere the making of the World. (p. 29)
The key phrase is "to which I was appointed ere the making of the World." First, it makes it clear that Ulmo is not acting defiantly at all, merely following orders, just as his servant would be following orders if he hurled up a wave and killed Tuor. Second, it refers to the time of the song which created the world. It is this song, I believe, that contains the conflicting instructions both Ulmo and Osse are following, different parts, elements, or themes of the whole. If I am correct, then Ulmo's power to help the Elves is both limited by and partially determined by the Music of the Ainur, insofar as it established the existence of the earth and determined its major events. While Ulmo may have had free will as he sang his part of the song in those distant times, he is now bound by what he sang and cannot go beyond or change his part. If Tom is Aule, then he too is bound by his part in the song and although sympathetic and concerned, he can only help the Hobbits and the Free Peoples of the West in little ways.
Again, not evidence in favor but rather evidence against a potential objection. Not relvant until some threshold of proof has been crossed that this hypothesis is not close to yet.
quote:This account of Tom as Aule is not really inconsistent with Tolkien's claim that Tom has renounced power in a kind of "vow of poverty" and that he exemplifies "a natural pacifist view." At the time of the singing of the Great Music, it is true that Aule, along with most of the other Holy Ones, eventually stopped singing, leaving Melkor to sing on alone. However, they did not stop because Melkor's thunderous and discordant singing defeated them, but rather because they did not wish to compete with him and considered the song spoiled by his behavior. It was not defeat, since obviously by singing together the others could have overcome him. Rather it was a rejection of the conflict itself - hence, a pacifist position. It was indeed the Third Theme sung by Iluvatar, representing the part of the Children of Iluvatar, that was to overcome Melkor's disruption. Concerning the "vow of poverty," Aule has indeed taken such a vow - as exemplified by his attitude toward his work and the work of others - his lack of excessive pride, jealousy, and possessiveness.
More of the same.
quote:In contrast, if Tom is a nature spirit, then no vow of poverty has been taken, and there is no natural pacifist view. According to the nature spirit thesis, as Veryln Flieger puts it in Splintered Light, published in 1983: "Tom Bombadil, on whom the Ring has no effect, is a natural force, a kind of earth spirit, and so the power over the will which the Ring exerts simply has no meaning for him" (p. 128, note). As a natural force, Tom has the same status as a falling rock or the wind or the rain - he is blind activity with no direction or purpose. As such he is not a moral agent, and cannot therefore make moral decisions. The moral dimension is thus completely absent. Tom is immune to the influence of the ring not because of his high moral character, but because he is not capable of having a moral character at all.
If Tom is Aule, however, there is a moral dimension, indeed, a heightened one, for Tom's appearance in the story, although only a "comment," serves as a sharp and clear contrast to the two evil Maiar, Sauron and Saruman, both of whom were once his servants before turning to evil and darkness. Unlike their former master, these two followed the ways of Melkor, envy, jealousy, excessive pride, and the desire to possess and control. As Tolkien explained to his proofreader, Tom's role was to show that there were things beyond and unconcerned with domination and control. On the surface, this view of Tom seems to make him unrelated to all other things and events in Middle-earth - indeed, anomalous. As Aule, however, Tom is not beyond and unconcerned anomalously, but rather is located at the core of morality as it existed in Middle-earth, as the ultimate exemplification of the proper moral stance toward power, pride, and possession. In fact, in terms of the moral traits that most fascinated Tolkien both as an author and as a scholar, Tom Bombadil is Tolkien's moral ideal."
As Aule he is anomalous to known acts and statements about the Valar. I mean, you try to hold up the lack of a description of a Maia that could be Tom as evidence he’s not one, but don’t mind this little bit of information that he’s incarnated himself since the beginning of time being left out of the book.
quote:About the Ring thing being a parlour trick, perhaps that would be possible if it were a normal ring, but making the Ring of Power dissappear is no parlour trick. And even if Ii grant you that it is, being able to see Frodo with it on is certainly no parlour trick and certainly not within the realm of a Maia like Gandalf let alone a supposed nature spirit.
The ring is physical. It can be lost and found. Making it disappear can be done as easily as putting it in a pocket. As to him seeing Frodo, the wraiths can see Frodo in a fashion (even when not wearing their rings), as can Sauron. Gandalf’s powers are no longer those of a Maia. If the ring works by exerting influence on the viewer, it fits with the no power over him hypothesis of Gandalf.
quote:I have presented sepcific arguments of my own and from the essay I linked to. Specific text references have been made and the comparissons are very specific toward Aule. I have actually been doing this for this entire thread, so another generic reply of "I'm simply making general claims and not providing evidence" is going to be rather tedious and insulting, ok?
Again, most of your evidence is based on the assumption that Tom needs great power to do what he did. The second assumption is that only Aule fits, so it must be him, ignoring that thousands of Maia and other characters are not described in the text.
The rest is based on overcoming objections, not providing affirmative proof.
posted
You have oversimplified most of my points and have muddle them I'm afraid, let me try to respond and clear things up a bit before I head out, ok?
quote:Dagonee: you are taking much of what I said out of context and assigning quite a bit of my statements new meanings which I did not give them.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- First, you insist in maintaining that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia, with no textual evidence at all. The only textual evidence to date says he was the mightiest of Morgoth's followers, not of all the Maia.
First off I did provide a link to a site on this issue, but if you don't think it's official enough - which i know it may very well not be - then I can simply answer that i do not need to prove that Sauron was the most powerful Maiar to hold up my argument. The fact that you claim I do need to demonstrates your misunderstanding. For you see, even if I couldn't prove that Sauron was absolutely the most powerful Maiar, he still was one of the most powerful as has been acknwoledged by everyone here. The complimentary point to this is that there is nothing to suggest that Tom is an Maia that does not lend even more credence to him being a Vala (ie: control-singing as opposed to the Istari's usual chanting, references to his age and power in lieu of various possible Dark Lord, etc.) . No, if Tom is one of the Ainur the facts steer very clearly away from the possibility of a Maia and directly toward Aule, and by the end of this post you will see exactly why. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don’t believe he was a Maia, either, so this isn’t really relevant.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Second, the only evidence you have that speaks directly to whether or not Tom is a Valar is the power comparison, which, again, you've provided know evidence for. In fact, there's no reason for Tom to be Aule as opposed to any other of the male Vala except for specific statements that exclude some (such as Manwe). His actions are as inconsistent with the descriptions we have of Aule's nature as they are of Tulkas. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First off the evidence is the text that seems to be almost common knowledge here at hatrack and that we've all been quoting on this thread. However, if you really demand a fully transcribed online text I suggest you handle that morally and legally ambivalent task on your own. The reasons that Tom a Vala as opposed to a Maia: -1"If we take Tom's remark quite literally that he "was here before the river and the trees. . .the first raindrop and the first acorn" (Rings, 1:142), he is saying either that he was in Middle-earth when the Valar arrived or that he arrived as one of the Valar. His remark that "he knew the dark under ths stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from the Outside" refers to the time before Morgoth, the original Dark Lord, had officially turned renegade - the time when the "old" or original stars were made. Since the world was incomplete at that time and nothing lived on the earth except the Valar, it is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, first of all this would indicate he is Vala or Maia, not just Vala. It’s this exact kind of carelessness that undermines the careful web of coincidence you’re trying to weave.
You mistake logical procession of elimination for carelessness. I started out trying to rope in Tom within the broad Ainur category, THEN I tried getting more specific as to what kind of Ainur, THEN I tried getting more specific as to which Vala. I used the appropriate levels of specificity of evidence for the broader categorical proofs, and narrowed as the categories became more specific. Honestly, you are truly mistaking conflation and generalization for separation of logical proofs dealing with categories and logical procession through that.
quote:Second, the dark was filled with fear during the time of Morgoth’s first dominion in Middle Earth, when Angband was merely a northern fortress and Utunmo (sp?) was his principle dwelling. This leaves lots of time between when the Valar removed themselves to Aman and the coming of the elves (or Ents, for that matter). Granted, taking “before the first raindrop and the first acorn literally causes problematic interpretations, but certainly Aule has no claim to be first over the rest of the Ainur. So this statement isn’t true even if he is Aule. Either he’s referring to being the first living (i.e., biotic) being or he’s lying. And if “here” refers to Middle Earth then it can’t literally be true, anyway.
Again, this does refer to living beings and while could be conflated to include Manwe, Melko and Varda (remember, at one point Melkor decsended into Arda under the auspices of the 15th Valar and not as the Dark Lord), however, combined with all the traits that you seem to try and project onto all the rest of the Valar without success, its very clear which Vala it refers to.
quote:Finrod sang to battle Sauron when he and Beren where captured, as did Sauron in that battle. Tom has been around since before the Elves arrived, some of them journeyed to Valinor, came back, and mostly left again. Of course he’s likely to have picked up such music. And here’s where the little facts really start to undermine your contention: Legolas never went to the Uttermost West.
This is not unique or a good enough responses since Tom almost entirely speaks in song. And the bit about Legolas doesn't matter: 1. becuase he probably picked it up from former-fellow Sirdan(sp?) elves before they went NW and he merged with the Silvans. 2. He could have picked it up from other elf lords as well who dealt with the Vala and returned(ie: offshoots of the returned Noldor)
quote:Again, if Aule is Tom, and the two competing claims of being eldest are settled on classification, then Aule is lying, because the Ainur came in at the beginning of time (Tulkas excepted). Also, cladding ainur in flesh required the consent of Eru – it was a momentous event and seemingly unprecedented.
He is referring to biotics, there is no conflict in claims since Tom under this theory is not clad in flesh. Remember, the Valar have the ability to feign even physical flesh and its abilities, they needn't take on the costs of real physical flesh the way the Maiar must as the Valar never descend into real flesh form.
quote:OK, so we don’t know what a Vala acts like. Therefore, these conjectures can at best overcome objections, not provide concrete evidence in favor of the theory.
The claim that no known Maia fit the bill is equally irrelevant, since we’re told that only a few “come into the tales.” There are also many more Maia than Vala, and there seems to be a much greater variety. Therefore, there seems to be NO evidence favoring Vala over Maia.
I'm glad we agree, this bit DOES overcome objections, that's why I included it!
As to the Maia issue, that IS relevant since the text is all we have to go off of! The Aule theory makes much better sense than a theory that Tom is really someone never even mentioned specifically in LOTR at all!
quote:OK, she wears green and loves nature. Again, she could easily be a Maia (see above). Further, she could really be the Riverwoman’s daughter.
LOL what an oversimplification of the remarkable detail I provided you with! Here let me post it again for you, this time try reading ALL of it.
""Because most of the Valar are married, determining the possible identity of Goldberry can be a help in establishing Tom's. There are three possible Valier who might have enjoyed living for a time in the Old Forest: Nessa, Vana, and Yavanna. Nessa, who loves deer and dancing, does not fit too well, since neither of these is Goldberry's specialties. Her husband, Tulkas, the best fighter among the Valar, moreover, is probably too warlike to be Tom. Vana, who cares for flowers and birds, also does not fit very well, since Goldberry is concerned with a larger variety of plants, and birds have no special role. Orome, Vana's husband, furthermore, is a hunter, especially of monsters. If he were Tom, there would have been no wights on the Downs. With Yavanna, however, we have just the right emphasis, for she is responsible for all living things, with a special preference for plants. Since she is Queen of the Earth, it is easy to imagine her watering the forest with special care, as Goldberry does during the Hobbits' visit.
In the Silmarillion (pp. 20-21) Yanvanna's appearance is characterized as follows:
In the form of a woman she is tall, and robed in green; but at times she takes other shapes. Some there are who have seen her standing like a tree under heaven, crowned with the Sun; and from all its branches there spilled a golden dew upon the barren earth, and it grew green with corn; but the roots of the tree were in the waters of Ulmo, and the winds of Manwe spoke in its leaves. When we first meet Goldberry, she is clad in green: "her gown was green, green as young reeds, shot with silver like beads of dew" (Rings, p. 172). When Tom officially introduces Goldberry, he says, "Here's my Goldberry clothed all in silver-green. . . ." When she says goodbye to the Hobbits, she is once again clad in green and Frodo in calling for her refers specifically to this color when he starts to look for her: "My fair lady, clad all in green!" (p. 187). This characterization of Goldberry's customary dress supports that hypothesis that she is Yavanna.
To be sure, when we first meet her, her feet are also surrounded by water, seemingly supporting the water nymph story. This circumstance, however, is not inconsistent with her tree image, which, as just noted, involved having her feet or roots in "the waters of Ulmo."
As the farewell continues, moreover, a description analogous to the tree description is given:
There on the hill-brow she stood beckoning to them: her hair was flying loose, and as it caught the sun it shone and shimmered. A light like the glint of water on dewy grass flashed under her feet as she danced."
Although still in human form, her flying hair hints at "the winds of Manwe" and the reflection of the sun from her hair suggests that she is "crowned with the Sun." The "glint of water on dewy grass" suggests the spilling of the golden dew on the earth as well as "the waters of Ulmo." When the Hobbits last see Goldberry, she is much more like a plant: "they saw Goldberry now small and slender like s sunlit flower against the sky: she was standing still watching them, and her hands were stretched out towards them." In this case, she is probably more flower than tree because Hobbits in general like flowers and are afraid of trees. The "sunlit" image is strikingly similar to Yavanna's primary nonhuman appearance."
quote:Manwe desires to possess and control? Ulmo? Tulkas? Orome? This analysis is only relevant if there’s evidence Tom must be a Vala, which again comes down to his power over the ring.
No, by this time we have established that Tom, if an Ainur, would be a Vala more likely than a Maia, go back and read the proofs I started off with. Please try to remember the categorical logical procession.
quote:I always interpreted that scene as slight of hand or, at most, power to obscure. There’s zero evidence in the scene that the ring physically disappeared. It was hidden somehow, whether through some power over the material of the ring, power over the air between Frodo’s eyes and the ring, power over Frodo’s vision, or mere sleight of hand it doesn’t say. As Gandalf says, it’s not that he has power over the ring but that the ring has no power over him.
Actually it says that the ring dissappeared There seems to be no textual support for your mitigation of calling it a mere parlour trick. You still ignore the point that Tom could see Frodo with it on, only a Ainur could do that.
quote:Again, not evidence in favor but rather evidence against a potential objection. Not relvant until some threshold of proof has been crossed that this hypothesis is not close to yet.
Yes, these are answers to possible objections, because if you had paid attention to the procession of narrowing proofs, you'd realize we had passed the threshhold of proof regarding this by now.
quote:As Aule he is anomalous to known acts and statements about the Valar. I mean, you try to hold up the lack of a description of a Maia that could be Tom as evidence he’s not one, but don’t mind this little bit of information that he’s incarnated himself since the beginning of time being left out of the book.
You misunderstood the point of this, it was dealing with the morality aspect or Tom's possible motivations, his presence is clearly noted in the text.
quote:The ring is physical. It can be lost and found. Making it disappear can be done as easily as putting it in a pocket. As to him seeing Frodo, the wraiths can see Frodo in a fashion (even when not wearing their rings), as can Sauron. Gandalf’s powers are no longer those of a Maia. If the ring works by exerting influence on the viewer, it fits with the no power over him hypothesis of Gandalf.
The Ring is physical but is embued with the essence of Sauron. To make that dissappear, or even if I grant you the mere appearance of making it dissappear would be near impossible for a being of lesser power and essence. Remember, the Ring wants to be found because it is in part, Sauron himself The reason the Ring Wraiths can see him is one: Every time they encounter him they *do* have their Rings on. In fact Tolkien makes it very clear in the story that they do not ever take them off, they are what prop up their ruined existances! 2. Even if they didn't have their rings on they had their rings for so long they basically became permanent subjuncts of Sauron's evil.
quote:Again, most of your evidence is based on the assumption that Tom needs great power to do what he did. The second assumption is that only Aule fits, so it must be him, ignoring that thousands of Maia and other characters are not described in the text.
I feel there was quite a bit of specifics that you are leaving out, but even if there weren't, would it not make sense to deal with what we have IN th text as being more likely rather than trying to guess what has been left out of the text completely?
quote:The rest is based on overcoming objections, not providing affirmative proof.
I provided several posts in this thread with direct links and extremely pervasive similarities pro-actively linking Aule to Tom once other possiblities have been methodically eliminated. If this is your response to the giant amount of detail I put into this, then this converation with you is not only repeating, but I am loosing my enjoyment of it.
quote:First, you insist in maintaining that Sauron was the most powerful of the Maia, with no textual evidence at all. The only textual evidence to date says he was the mightiest of Morgoth's followers, not of all the Maia.
I think Melian would definitely be the most powerful of the Maiar, or at least more powerful than Sauron. She had the ability to resist Morgoth's power, to keep out his mental influence and that of Sauron, plus physically all of his followers. Sauron has never been mentioned as having anywhere near that depth of power, or breadth for that matter.
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quote:I started out trying to rope in Tom within the broad Ainur category, THEN I tried getting more specific as to what kind of Ainur, THEN I tried getting more specific as to which Vala. I used the appropriate levels of specificity of evidence for the broader categorical proofs, and narrowed as the categories became more specific. Honestly, you are truly mistaking conflation and generalization for separation of logical proofs dealing with categories and logical procession through that.
Cateogrical logical procession cumulates uncertainties, it does not eliminate them.
There are uncertainties in step 1, 2, and 3. Each succeeding uncertainty is given more power by the ones that came before, not less. But the evidence you cite specifically says "is hard to believe that Tom is anything but a Vala" at this stage of the analysis. I was responding to your evidence which continually overreaches on its categorization.
quote:Again, this does refer to living beings and while could be conflated to include Manwe, Melko and Varda (remember, at one point Melkor decsended into Arda under the auspices of the 15th Valar and not as the Dark Lord), however, combined with all the traits that you seem to try and project onto all the rest of the Valar without success, its very clear which Vala it refers to.
You can’t claim to be using logical progression and then refer to later categorizations in proof of earlier ones. The objection here is simple: No Ainur has the ability to claim being first or oldest. Therefore an Ainur who says that is lying. It seems unlikely Aule would lie.
quote: This is not unique or a good enough responses since Tom almost entirely speaks in song. And the bit about Legolas doesn't matter: 1. becuase he probably picked it up from former-fellow Sirdan(sp?) elves before they went NW and he merged with the Silvans. 2. He could have picked it up from other elf lords as well who dealt with the Vala and returned(ie: offshoots of the returned Noldor)
The point is that singing is not unique enough to use to assign an entity who sings to one classification or another. You’re the one trying to categorize. The criteria for assigning a being to one category has to discriminate in some way between different categories. All we know is that Tom is one of several different tiers of beings that use songs for power.
quote:Remember, the Valar have the ability to feign even physical flesh and its abilities, they needn't take on the costs of real physical flesh the way the Maiar must as the Valar never descend into real flesh form.
True, even Maia can become flesh enough to give birth, as Melian did. But we’re told when Melian did it, we’re given no concrete hints in the Silmarillion that Aule ever did.
quote: As to the Maia issue, that IS relevant since the text is all we have to go off of! The Aule theory makes much better sense than a theory that Tom is really someone never even mentioned specifically in LOTR at all!
Ah, ironies of ironies. You want to rely on the text, which mentions Aule living in a house in the Old Forest exactly nowhere. Apparently, you find it more likely that an author would flesh out a character to a great extent and leave out an important detail about him rather than have the unexplained detail be assigned to an unmentioned character. Why do you consider this more likely?
quote:Same stuff about Yvanna not quoted to save space.
Look, you can repost stuff all you want. The fact is, similarity between two different people does not establish they are in fact the same. It doesn’t matter how great that similarity is – it just doesn’t matter.
Is Arwen the same as Luthien because she looks like her?
quote: No, by this time we have established that Tom, if an Ainur, would be a Vala more likely than a Maia, go back and read the proofs I started off with. Please try to remember the categorical logical procession.
No, we haven’t, go back and read the refutations I posted. You have two major points “showing” he’s a Valar not a Maiar: 1.) It takes lots of power to do that Tom did with the Ring. 2.) Tolkein didn’t describe the other Maia so Tom couldn’t be one of them. 2 is utterly unsupported. 1 is dealt with below.
quote:Actually it says that the ring dissappeared There seems to be no textual support for your mitigation of calling it a mere parlour trick.
That scene is told from Frodo’s PoV. So saying it “disappeared” means nothing more than that Frodo could not see it. Again, this could be done by exerting power over the ring, power over the natural area, or power over Frodo’s vision. You have not addressed this at all.
quote:You still ignore the point that Tom could see Frodo with it on, only a Ainur could do that.
No – if the ring hides people wearing it by exerting power over the viewer, then Tom seeing Frodo would be because the ring has no power over him. And again, NO EVIDENCE that only an Ainur can do that. We simply don’t have enough incidents to judge the veracity of this claim.
quote: Yes, these are answers to possible objections, because if you had paid attention to the procession of narrowing proofs, you'd realize we had passed the threshhold of proof regarding this by now.
No we haven’t – because the uncertainties from above are still present and being magnified by uncertainties in this step.
quote:You misunderstood the point of this, it was dealing with the morality aspect or Tom's possible motivations, his presence is clearly noted in the text.
But the principle objection is still unmet by you: Aule is fairly fully described. This isn’t mentioned. Other maia are mentioned, not by name, and not fully described. Which one is more likely to have an important detail looked out?
quote: The Ring is physical but is embued with the essence of Sauron. To make that dissappear, or even if I grant you the mere appearance of making it dissappear would be near impossible for a being of lesser power and essence.
Frodo makes it “disappear” every time he puts it into his pocket. Again, you ignore that this is from Frodo’s POV.
quote:The reason the Ring Wraiths can see him is one: Every time they encounter him they *do* have their Rings on. In fact Tolkien makes it very clear in the story that they do not ever take them off, they are what prop up their ruined existances!
Actually, Tolkein states that the reason Sauron can trust them to bring him the Ring, and almost no one else, is that he holds the nine rings. I’m not at home, I’ll find the quote later.
quote:2. Even if they didn't have their rings on they had their rings for so long they basically became permanent subjuncts of Sauron's evil.
And the way they see Frodo is different than the way Tom does. Again, there’s zero evidence that “only an Ainur can see Frodo while he wears the ring.”
quote: I feel there was quite a bit of specifics that you are leaving out, but even if there weren't, would it not make sense to deal with what we have IN th text as being more likely rather than trying to guess what has been left out of the text completely?
Why? Again, we know a lot about person A. Nothing about person B. Who is more likely to have a large portion of their story left out of the text?
quote: I provided several posts in this thread with direct links and extremely pervasive similarities pro-actively linking Aule to Tom once other possiblities have been methodically eliminated. If this is your response to the giant amount of detail I put into this, then this converation with you is not only repeating, but I am loosing my enjoyment of it.
Other possibilities have NOT been eliminated. Basic objections remain unanswered. The detail is not compelling, because the earlier links are tenuous at best.
Dagonee Edit: wanted to add that adding lots of detail on the "easy" portions of a logical progression is a common rhetorical tactict. Such details do nothing to strengthen the portions of the argument most lacking details, namely that Tom must be Ainur and that, if Ainur, Valar.
posted
Rakeesh very quickly as I walk out the door, with regards to Melian, if you are using her famous Girdle as your basis for that statement, Carcharoth was able to pierce it in a frenzy.
quote:At the gates of Angband, the mighty wolf Carcharoth had bitten Beren's hand from his wrist, and with it the Silmaril it held. The Silmaril was a hallowed jewel, and burned the innards of the evil monster. In searing pain, the wolf blindly chased through Beleriand and, breaking the Girdle of Melian, roamed madly through the lands of Doriath.
King Thingol set out to hunt the wolf with the greatest of his warriors. With him went Mablung and Beleg, and Beren Erchamion, and Huan the Hound of Valinor. They found Carcharoth under the eaves of Neldoreth, drinking beneath a waterfall of the River Esgalduin. Eventually, after a mighty battle, Huan slew Carcharoth, but both he and Beren were mortally wounded.
Dagonee, I'm leaving to go have some fun while the snow stays, but I'll say this, you have drained the enjoyment completely out of this by seemingly ingnoring my points, oversimplifying them and taking half of them out of context, then you have the gall to accuse me of doing that to YOU. Your next post will probably do something like try turn this on me saying I am doing these things to you! I have responded to the same points of yours more than twice in some instances and I'm not going to waste my time with the same responses or try to put back together what I initially said that you took apart. Calling my effort to use meticulous detail to warrant my links to Aule as mere rhetorical tricks has made me realize this conversation, which should be at best light-hearted and fun and at very least civil, has gotten nasty and you have turned sophistic in it.
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Funny, that's about how I feel with your UTTER refusal to discuss the points I've brought up. You're the one who decided to accuse me of not understanding logical progression and you're the one who waved your details around as if their mere presence gives your statement any credibility.
Dagonee Edit: The start of any nastiness was yours: 'I have actually been doing this for this entire thread, so another generic reply of "I'm simply making general claims and not providing evidence" is going to be rather tedious, ok?'
posted
Yes, it has. *sigh* Never thought it'd be possible for me to lose enjoyment in a Tolkien thread.
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Re: Angband dog, he had a Silmaril burning a hole in his insides. That radically ups his ability I would think. It is also not mentioned whether or not he was LET in. I would let him in, were I Melian. Get to deal with him outside Morgoth's influence, Morgoth can't recover a Silm., etc.
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posted
Hey, I was just arguing for the sheer fun of it and because I felt like I had a good case. I think I've had enough of it now.
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posted
When matters of the utmost importance like this are argued, people of necessity get their feelings and selves thoroughly invested in their own positions. It's only natural to feel personally threatened or insulted by people who refuse to see the plain truth.
Personally, it upsets me to no end that the faithful Radagast, and the other two wizards, about whom so little is known, have had their reputations completely destroyed by idle speculation. Humans and elves are a small part of all creation, however important they feel themselves to be. To say that these valiant spirits turned aside and failed is just base slander. In fact, they succeeded so well that we are able to continue totally overlooking their entire missions, unaware even in which domains of heaven or earth they carried out their vital work.
I am greatly saddened and grieved by this. I hope a few may read my words and have their hearts and eyes opened to the truth.
[ April 23, 2004, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
ak, I'm desperately looking for my copy of "Unfinished Tales," which explicitly states that only Olorin (Gandalf) remained faithful to the mission. It's not idle, it's Tolkien. Although there are two versions, one which makes Radagast look better than the other.
Dagonee Edit: Although it is unfinished, so maybe he meant to change it...
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I'm so sure of this that I would overrule even Tolkien, and say if he thought that then he was mistaken. Of the five, only Saruman completely failed. The others had great success, though things turned out differently for them than they had forseen.
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quote:Gothmog was one of the Balrogs who struck down Feanor, and I think he also dragged back Hurin Thalion to be tortured for years and years by Morgoth.
I think Gothmog was also the name of at least one Orc, and a Nazgul.
Angmar was the name of the realm ruled by the 'Witch-King', whose chief enemies were the Dunedain, many years before the events in LotR. The Witch-King was in fact the chief of the Nazgul. I don't think Angmar was his name, but was rather the name of that kingdom.
Quick. Who was the vice-president of the United States under Theodore Roosevelt?
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posted
The dude who dropped the atomic bomb after Roosevelt died. Because his mythos is not nearly so interesting nor important as that of Gothmog, I can't recall his name. Herbert Hoover, was it?
And what was your point supposed to be? Posts: 2843 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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