posted
Can't help out because after three pages I still have no idea what's being asked for. Apparently you want books that were written for the sole purpose of "bettering the mind," which would eliminate everything that wasn't a philosophical treatise, I would think.
I also wouldn't disparage popular literature as quickly as has been done here. If the book is impenetrable it doesn't matter how "important" it is.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Can't help thinking that authors who INTEND writing books that better the mind end up writing the exact opposite, or at best those that can be damned with the term 'worthy'. One of the marks of a great work of art is that it can bear many interpretations, including ones the author hadn't originally thought of. That being said here's a couple more to add to the mix: The Gulag Archipelago, Solzhenitsyn Pastwatch: The Redemption of Christopher Columbus, OSC The Stonor Eagles, William Horwood Skallagrigg, William Horwood The Broken Heart, Bruce Hafen
Posts: 867 | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
A Wrinkle in Time Madeleine L'Engle A Swiftly Tilting Planet Madeleine L'Engle Les Miserables Victor Hugo (If you can't stand the book, at least see the musical) Stranger in a Strange Land Robert Heinlein The Scarlet Letter Nathaniel Hawthorn The Divine Comedy Dante (The entire thing. I don't know why everyone seems to stop after they've finished Inferno ) The Never Ending Story Michael Ende Everything by William Shakespeare
. . . And I think there's some more. I can't remember, though.
Posts: 46 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I go away for three days, and the topic breaks 100 posts. I'm going to need some time to sort through this.
Stallingcow was exactly right when he said:
quote: Kwea,
I can see what you're saying with regards to being able to find intellectual stimulation from basically any book. Anything can make you think, not just the prescribed books that civilization seems to think are *important*.
However, there are certain books that are inherently more thought provoking than others. For instance, the Lord of the Flies speaks far more to the human condition than does the novelization of the movie Underworld, for instance.
What HRE is trying to get at, I think, is an "agreed upon" list (as far as that's even possible) of books that get at the essence of the human spirit and the meaning of human existence. "Required" reading in a sense of books that help to provide a better sense of self, and of one's place in the world. Books that make you a more complete person for having read them.
To that end, certain great books fall short of the cut. Tolkien is a great read, and the books are chock full of literary symbolism and all manner of ponderables. However, one doesn't come away from the trilogy with any sort of new worldview or greater philosophical understanding of self, or of the human condition.
Contrarily, let's look at one you disparaged. Brave New World, though somewhat dated in terms of available technology, has become even *more* thought provoking and apropos in a world where such genetic manipulation of embryos is more and more possible and where sexual mores have lessened considerably. It's disturbing how closely Huxley's world parallels our own, even more now than when it was written. Does this mean it's as fun and exciting as LotR? Not at all. But BNW is far more likely to force a reader to examine the world around them and their place in it than LotR is.
posted
I'm going to put in a vote for Chaim Potok's "The Book of Lights." Possibly a slightly obscure choice, but it spoke to me on so many levels, and still does. It should be more widely-known and widely-read than it is. It's really just a very honest look at both political and spiritual issues in Judaism of the 1950s - very grounded in a particular time and place and yet the bits of one's mind it speaks to are, I think, universal. The bits that deal with conflict and encountering unfamiliar cultures and seeking to understand them. And I don't think I've advocated it very well, for it far transcends what I can say about it.
I think Karen Armstrong's "A History of God" should be somewhere on the list. It's a very good history of Judaism, Christianity, Islam and how they've interacted over the years. Accurate and perceptive and very very well written.
Those are the only ones I can think of that haven't been mentioned.
Posts: 1550 | Registered: Jun 1999
| IP: Logged |
posted
Reading Lolita in Tehran . I just read it today, and it is fabulous. Everyone should read it. Everyone. It's about this woman who started a reading group for women in Iran, and they read Lolita and The Great Gatsby and some other things, and it's very very interesting.
posted
OK, this is the voice of God speaking, I have the final say so there's no point in arguing with me as you will invariably be totally wrong.
Different books are thought provoking for different people, that is fact. There is no way of making a singular list for the entire human race without including nearly every book ever written. Therefore, any common list must be qualified: for a large percentage of people a large percentage of the time. If there is a book you don't think is thought provoking and somebody else does, then rest assured that you are wrong, and that the only reason you think that is because you are very stupid and narrow-minded like the rest of pathetic humankind. If there is a book you think is thought provoking and somebody else doesn't, it's actually theoretically possible that you are again wrong because the other is so far beyond you in intelectual devlopment in the particular area that that book would not be thought provoking as the valid ideas expressed, implied, or narrated within have already been ingrained deep, deep within the individual's psyche.
That being said I'll go back to being good old contrary rude suntranafs.
Any people who did not have their thoughts provoked by the Lord of the Rings trilogy sure as hell should have. Most of the foundations of morality can be found therein. As a side-note, I myself did not find them very provoking of conscious thought, but the sub-conscious part of the brain is a lot bigger, and you can tell when it's working.
People who bash Loius Lamour books have either not read and appreciated the good ones or should by all rights be shot, mostly the former. Some of the really good, and I might venture to say substantially more consciously thought provoking than TheLOTRtril. are: Jubal Sackett, the aforesaid The Walking Drum and The Lonesome Gods, Last of the Breed, Reily's Luck, several short stories of which the only one that story and title come to mind just now is "May There Be a Road", and others. Many more of his hundreds of books do run along a similar theme, for they have something to teach: What it is to be a man.
"Brave New World I liked, and found interesting and I suppose thought provoking, Fairenheight 51 I have not read but would rather like to (but you want to talk reallly thought provoking from many levels and directions, try The Martian Chronicles also by Ray Bradbury) , and "1984" really sucked, pissed me off, I thought it was totally unrealistic for any time, that the author "cheated" to put a more negative spin on things, and anybody who thinks our country is there now is in serious need of a reality check. Things, no matter how bad, will never be bad in that way because life is not a story written by a psychotic God. I suppose the book was a bit thought provoking- the storyline was crappy and the writing a bit pointless, but there were some little outlying, blatantly obvious and unskillfully interwoven messages written in. ahh, I did kinda like doublespeak and truethink, oh and the ministry of peace, the ministry of truth, and most signifigant to that era and this, the ministry of love- actually might well be the ministry of security... ALMOST. Not quite. There's something to the book, but it's far to negative and unrealistic to be the great doctrine that everybody acts like it is.
It's hard for me to believe that nobody's specifically mentioned Speaker for the Dead, that's about as thought provoking a book as any I've read. Deny fiction as a thought provoking book category and you may as well say I have no moral literary education, and that would be bull. Non-fiction "Classics", with a few notable exceptions, tend to bore me to the point that I think Ok, gotta read this book, force myself through the first thirty pages, and then go read a good thoughtprovoking, or not, fiction book.
Want to talk about thought provoking with-definite-points-based-fiction, try "My Ishmael" or "Ishmael". Since probably few have hear of these, Ishmael is a Gorilla who talks with his eyes and reveals what's wrong with the world and how to save it. Another one, that's more like a relgious text, and that again, I can hardly believe no one has mentioned, is "The Prophet". Somebody already mentioned Siddartha, and I'd definitely second that, possibly adding "Damien" also by Herman Hesse.
If I were to start cussing at people for dissing Mark Twain, I'd probably run myself hoarse, but has anybody ever read "Letters from the Earth"? As if Huck Finn weren't enough. I actually haven't even read that much Mark Twain, but am I the only person who's seen his many reveletory quotes posted all over heck? I'm guessing the majority came from some book or another. If Jules Verne was the 19th century prophet of 20th century science, Mark Twain was the 19th century prophet of continued human moral evolution.
Another great prophet of that was the guy's name that I always forget... Heaven and Hell, Man and Superman, Caesar and Cleopatra, another good one I've read, and a lot of great quotes...ooo what is his name... dang these people with three names, I can only think of one, and I don't think OSC is a playwright.
Another really pretty thought provoking book I haven't seen mentioned but that is widely known is Inherit the Wind.
The gospels of Mathew and Luke, and the bit about King solomon in the bible may not be precisely thought provoking but they definitely their enlightened messages. Though I haven't done much of the actual reading, from what I've listened to on tapes, socrates must be something to check out as well.
And to add to the books that should be read and understood by the elite, many of which I have not read, I'd like to make the point of mentioning the stories of the three little pigs, chicken little, the emperors new clothes, the tin soldier, the black bull of norway, The sword in the stone, Sir Perceval, Tristram and Iseult, Romeo and Juliet, < well better make that a lot of the shakespeare plays, Vasillisa the Beuatiful, Fenist the Falcon, The Gift of the Sacred Dog, Naya Nuki, and about 1,000,000 others.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
HRE: All I did was quote Huxley himself when I was talking about BNW. Are you saying the author was wrong? Once again, let me repeat ( ) that I wasn't dissing BNW, just pointing out that even a great work can have some serious flaws.
As far as ponderous works, full of heavy symbolism goes, I feel that most of the "classics" are closer to that standard than the books I mentioned are. Not every conversation has to laden with overtones of doom in order for a book to be great, but Moby Dick is so overburdened with angst that I never enjoyed it. I'm not saying it isn't a good book, but I didn't really learn much from it...perhaps because I had already learned those lessons from LOTR...
Read my earlier posts, and then agree or disagree; it doesn't really matter. All I was saying is that it didn't really sound to me that you wanted peoples true opinions, because if you did, you wouldn't have been so scornful when they offered it.
All of the books mentioned here has touched someone, and you your list, by excluding their choices before the choices were ever made, belittles them.
If nothing else, this thread should prove my most important point. That is, everybody will have different books on their lists, and that is as it should be, for we are all as different as our choices for books are.
Stalling cow: All that proves is that LOTR isn't the same book for you as it is for me. I found myself loving reading more for having found it, and that did change my world significantly. LOTR led me to a lot of the classics that we have been discussing here, and fostered a love of reading that has stood me in good stead for my whole life. It made me question the opinions of teachers, and helped me realize that it was OK to be different, to enjoy different things than most of my classmates. How ironic that sounds now, in the wake of it's new-found popularity, but in 1981 it wasn't nearly as mainstream as it is now.
I also learned to be critical of Lit, because a teacher of mine used LOTR to teach his class how to analyze a novel. Usually those types of classes bored the hell out of me, but I loved this one.
So by your own criteria, LOTR fits in MY list, because it did all the things you said great Lit should do: It expanded my mind, taught me critical thinking skills, and motivated me to continue reading and learning for my whole life. It taught me that you could still be a man and enjoy using your imagination, and that other people like me were out there, with the same interests and behaviors. And it taught me that there were worlds out there waiting for me to discover them, all held between bindings.
posted
I just wanted to share that because of this thread, I decided to go ahead and read Moby Dick for the first time. I am enjoying it much more that I thought I would.
Just thought I'd share. Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have to admit I wasn't impressed with Brave New World at all, because I didn't see it as plausible at all. Do you know what I mean? It was like your brother telling you horror stories when you can SEE the he's the one pulling a string to make the scary noises. If anything, the Chicken Little thing made me LESS fearful of oppresion, because I simply don't believe BNW's scenario could ever happen.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
quote: Tolkien is a great read, and the books are chock full of literary symbolism and all manner of ponderables. However, one doesn't come away from the trilogy with any sort of new worldview or greater philosophical understanding of self, or of the human condition.
When you say "one" doesn't come away from the trilogy, etc., you are assuming that everyone came away from it exactly the same as you did, which isn't true for this, or any other book. You shouldn't presume to speak for everyone else based on your own personal reaction.
Posts: 241 | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
Well, BNW was good because it did predict the path that science is traviling. Not to that extent, but it was all possible, and considering how long ago it was written, that is pretty amazing.
I don't think AH expected things to be exactally as it is in the book, but that he wanted to raise some of the ethical points tht had been overlooked up to then.
We are struggeling with a lot of those issues right now, particularily in the field of bioethics and genetics. I find that facinating...
quote: Yes. All Bow To The Great And Wonderful SUTRANAFS
A supremely excellent idea. Specially since I notice no one is arguing with me No, Seriously, though, flying Cow and any others, I did not mean to offend- and the domineering tone was more of my dumb humor. When it comes to things like this, as I tried to use my alter-ego(God) to point out, everybody's got their views, and I don't think anybody (except possibly me, and that I tried to qualify) was saying anything too negative, just expressing strongly-which I applaud, because I like to myself. Let's face it Some of us just really like books, and feel some need to stick up for our favorites, whether it be their story-value or intelectual-value in question. Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
quote: When you say "one" doesn't come away from the trilogy, etc., you are assuming that everyone came away from it exactly the same as you did, which isn't true for this, or any other book. You shouldn't presume to speak for everyone else based on your own personal reaction.
Hey! You coppy cat. Did I or did I not JUST say that? j/k I don't care.
Posts: 1103 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
It was my point first, so does that mean god is quoting me, or simply using me as a reference source? Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
People do so often talk about "escapist" literature and "interpretive" literature. My English IV teacher was always on about what was escapist and what was interpretive. I told her that what she considered escapist were books that didn't make HER think. Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to go on and clarify that; she thought I was calling her stupid.
But I mean--how does any book not make you think about something? Does anyone actually read a book with his mind a perfect blank?
Lord of the Rings always makes me think about something . All books make me think about something . The value of the book is partly in the reader.
Jen
(Disclaimer: I've never read any bodice-rippers...maybe they're the exception.)
Posts: 910 | Registered: May 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
How could you possibly insinuate bodice-rippers aren't just as valid as literature as anything else? I mean, all books are equal, right? It's all just about interpretation.
Let's throw some self-published pay-for-print books on the list. And why are we discriminating against the young? Goodnight Moon and See Jane Run should certainly be on this list because of their enlightening impact.
Wait... what about all the illiterate people out there? Aren't their opinions just as valid? Surely picture books must be included on the list.
And emergency test patterns on the television, because, it's all what the viewer/reader makes of it, no?
posted
FlyingCow dahling, I'm not saying all books are equal, just that I don't see how you can read any book and not think about anything .
I wasn't, actually, arguing that all books should be required reading. Some people were saying that certain books didn't make you think, which bewilders me.
posted
Shan, if you like The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer, you should also read Milk, Money, and Madness by Naomi Baumslag and Dia L. Michels. It's on the same topic, a few years later.
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why not just go like this, Cow?nbjviebigbjvnbaxjcnbvqjrehgoeqnjvnajvnrejongjovdxnvojneognjobvnxvc?? Right?
I never said that all books were equal. I said that this thread started out as elitist, and I wasn't the only one to notice it. If you think LOTR is on the same level as See Dick Run, that speaks more on your ability to think and analyze works of Lit than it does of either book....not that I really think that of you...
I get your point, I even got it before you posted it...but it still doesn't address the fact that HRE was trying to ask for peoples opinions when he had already made up his mind to not listen. That is shown by his dismissive disregard of a novel that people on all seven continents have deemed important.
You don't have to agree with me, but trying to ridicule my point doesn't make that point any less valid.
We all make our own lists, and my list does include LOTR. It doesn't include many novel that stuffy professors have told me over and over again were wonderful; but it does include many classics that I personally found thought provoking. Just because a book is old and overwrought with clichés doesn't mean it meant jack to me.
But just because something has been called a classic doesn't mean I won't like it, or think about it.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
j/k I don't care.
![[Evil]](graemlins/evil.gif)
![[Taunt]](graemlins/taunt.gif)
![[Grumble]](graemlins/grumble.gif)
