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Author Topic: 5 things that PISS me off working in restaurants
Jaiden
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(I work at a hotel as an aprenti-chef at present)

1) Serving Jewish people (for a Bar Mitzvah) non-kosher food- claiming it is and not caring that it isn't. (Pork pate anybody?)

2) Serving vegetarian guests food with animal fat in it.

3) "Hot Damn! Do you ever look good out of your chef whites!" (my sous chef when I came up changed into my street clothes)

4) Cuts on my hands when I have to wash apples in lemon juice.

5) "Can I have a caesar salad without lettuce?"

[ May 08, 2004, 06:45 PM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]

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Jaiden
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Oh, and warning all people with food restrictions, the kitchen I work in is not unique... I'm doing an apprenticeship right now and talking to my peers (other students doing apprenticeships, this is a very very regular practice)

"There's a nut allergy? Hmmm... just remove the peanut butter cookies and add some other kinds" (the peanut butter cookies were all mixed in. If someone was very very allergic to nuts there would have been -big- problems)

[Mad] [Mad]

Yes I am in Canada. And no this isn't a unique Canadian thing (a lot of my peers are in kitchens around the states)

[ May 08, 2004, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]

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cochick
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That thing with the Kosher and Vegetarian food is way wrong. Although I did drop a steak on the floor once and the chef washed it off, stuck it back in the pan, made fresh sauce and served it up again.

My 5 from working as a waitress for many years:

1. People who won't go home - at the end of a very long day. One night a couple wouldn't leave and despite asking them several times to move into the bar (this was in a hotel) the manager shut everything up and we left. The manager went back 15 minutes later and they were making out under the table.

2. Chefs! They look down on us lesser mortals and yell at us.

3. Having to stand up all night watching other people having a good time.

4. The restaurant manager getting to keep the lions share of the tips. Tipping in the UK stinks.

5. Compliants after they've ate their food. If it was that bad you shouldn't have eaten it - so shut up!

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Jaiden
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Hey! Not all chefs are cruel to the wait staff! I always go out of my way to make extra of everyting so the wait staff gets to eat (banquet cooking- we are supposed to plate enough for the party but any extra plates go to the wait staff- we "forget" how to count frequently) [Grumble]

I fully agree with the comments about people complaining and people having fun well we're all hard at work.... I have no idea about tipping 'cause I work for free at this point. (Yeah education! [Wink] )

[ May 08, 2004, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]

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cochick
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I know not all Chefs are bad it just seems the higher up you get is proportionate to how grumpy you are. Which would explain why you're still so nice being only a trainee [Big Grin]

I'm not that t'd off at Chefs really as one saved me from suffering permanent scaring when I got a teapot of boiling water tipped over my chest and arm.

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Sugar+Spice
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The best thing about chefs is that, if you're lucky you never have to cook. I lived with a chef for a while and he liked cooking so much I practically never saw the inside of the kitchen for months.

The may be mean to the wait staff, but they make great housemates.

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Mrs.M
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Jaiden, I have to tell you that, as a Jewish vegetarian who has relatives with peanut allergies, I am disgusted and horrified by what you have written.

First of all, if you serve peanuts to someone with a peanut allergy, they could die. Immediate hypersensitivity to peanuts is a frequent cause of anaphylactic reactions and deaths in children and adults. Peanut allergy is characterized by more severe symptoms than other food allergies and by high rates of symptoms on minimal contact. My 11-year-old cousin Hallie is allergic to peanuts - if she had been at that function, she would be dead. If you knowingly serve food that might contain peanuts or peanut products after being informed that customer has a peanut allergy, that makes you complicit. It makes you, and everyone else involved, criminally negligent. Frankly, I don't know how you would be able to live with yourself.

Second, it is beyond offensive to knowingly serve non-Kosher food to Jewish people - it's an appalling show of comtempt for our beliefs. BTW, observant Muslims also abstain from eating pork, so you are causing them to violate their religious practices and beliefs, too.

Third, it's equally offensive to serve meat to vegetarians. It can be dangerous - they could be vegetarian for health reasons. It can also make a long-time vegeterian very sick to ingest meat. Plus, there are religions that forbid the consumption of meat.

Jaiden, I don't know how you can work at this place. I can understand needing a job and needing training, but you are doing things in your work that are dishonest, unethical, and possibly criminal. You certainly have the right to do whatever you want, but to me, no job is worth compromising my principles in such a big way.

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Beren One Hand
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As I recall, Toretha had a blast working in a restaurant. Perhaps she can shed some positive light on the subject as well?
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Emp
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1) People who go in to eat who seem set on being difficult to the server/busser staff. When someone raises their voice at you and says "I don't want this " after you've given them water, it's a bit trying.

2) 2 dollar tips on 50 dollar bills for good service.

3) On that note, no tip on a 50 dollar bill.

4) New management that completely twists schedules and policy and willingly does things that piss off customers (i.e. noisily stacking tables and chairs in a huge banquet next to one remaining party.)

I mean, of course, these all pale in comparison to the above, but the restaurant I work at is very clear on vegetarian/kosher/general ingredient issues.

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Phanto
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quote:

Jaiden, I don't know how you can work at this place. I can understand needing a job and needing training, but you are doing things in your work that are dishonest, unethical, and possibly criminal. You certainly have the right to do whatever you want, but to me, no job is worth compromising my principles in such a big way.

Have the right to do whatever you want?

His actions here can be murder. Just the fact that he's doing them should get him thrown out of his job.

Harsh? Not really. Murder is somehow a touchy subject with me.

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rivka
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[Eek!] [Angst] [Mad]

*breathes deeply*

Ok, I'm going to assume that Theca is correct in assuming that Jaiden is describing things she's seen OTHER people do -- but regardless, this is horrifying.

And I say this as someone who will, in all likelihood, not be affected by these practices. I normally eat only it in restaurants that have ONLY kosher food and have a mashgiach, a person whose job it is to watch and ensure that precisely these things do not happen; when I eat at a bar mitzvah or wedding or similar function there is also a mashgiach in the kitchen; and on those occasions where I am the only (or one of the few) ones having kosher food, it comes SEALED to me, and I open the sealed plastic, foil, and whatever myself.

I have rarely been so glad that this is true; and the next time someone implies that these precautions are excessive, I have new reason to know otherwise.

So, I'm not all that concerned for myself. HOWEVER, there are many, many, many Jews out there who DO depend on the trustworthiness of the staff in the restaurants in which they eat. For them I am absolutely horrified -- beyond horrified. While it pales in comparison to serving allergy-contaminated food to the allergic (no one has ever died of eating non-kosher food, AFAIK), it is absolutely criminal.

And I mean that in a literal sense. I don't know about Canada, but in at least some states in the US, knowingly serving non-kosher food and calling it kosher IS a crime. And in those places where it's not, it should be.

I cannot come up with an adequate analogy to explain how awful this is. But the very thought makes me ill. I really hope you are NOT complicit in these practices, Jaiden.

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plaid
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I did some dishwashing for a year. My experience:

Restaurant managers = evil

Cooks = good

Waiters = mostly good; some jerks (oblivious to dishwashers' and cooks' workload, and like to talk about how expensive their apartment is, and all the big concerts they're going to...)

[ May 09, 2004, 01:49 AM: Message edited by: plaid ]

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Jaiden
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*takes a deep breath*

First off, my cousin has a horrible nut allergy. I have had to more then once bring him to the hospital blue in the face. Why would I wish this on anybody else?!?!?!?

Second off, I am -not- working at this place. This is my placement. If I don't finish it, I fail out of school and I fail my degree. There is no ifs or buts about it. Yes I've talked to my college. "It's part of the real world. Tough it out. The only way out is if they aren't teaching you and only making you wash dishes. Get over it, hun"

Third off, I didn't know these things until they were done. And I wasn't the one who did them. And yes, I did point these things out to the Execuative Chef. He a)doesn't understand or b)doesn't care. Either way I was told I was out of line.

Fourth off, it is not illegal. I've checked into it.

Fifth off, I am not making light about these things. I am horrified.
Also, I looked further into it, and in a survey I read from 2003 (I'll scan it when I have time if people wish), 99% of all food that is served "kosher" is not actually kosher by resturants. This survey was done in Washington D.C.- by the US Government.

Sixth off, I am angry at these things. That's why I posted. If I was a willing to do these things, why would I be pissed?!? *looks terribly confused at that logic*

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rivka
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Sucks to be in that position, Jaiden. [Frown] Sorry if I was unclear about exactly what was going on in your first post.

And while I didn't know that the statistics were THAT bad, I certainly did know that a large percentage of the food that was claimed to be kosher was not. Hence the precautions that I take. [Dont Know]

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reader
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Unfortunately, I can easily believe that it's legal to claim that food is kosher even if it isn't, or that it's vegetarian even if it has some animal fat in it. However, I don't understand how the nut allergy thing could possibly be legal. That's beyond serious - people can actually die! If you actually witness something like that happening, go to the highest up supervisor you can find, and stop it - because that definitely is NOT legal.

And as Rivka said, that's exactly why Orthodox Jews won't eat somewhere just because it claims to be Kosher - we make sure that there's Mashgiach wherever we're eating, and the Mashgiach is hired by a seperate Kashrus company, not the restaurant/manufacturer, and is an Orthodox Jew besides. In my family, the only food we buy without kosher certification is unprocessed, whole fruits and vegetables.

Still, how can it possibly be legal to serve Pork and claim that it's Kosher? Aren't there laws about truth in advertising and so forth? As far as I know, even the Reform haven't claimed that Pork is Kosher. They probably eat it, but I doubt they'd say it was Kosher.... Are you really sure it's legal?

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Toretha
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Once we had a rabbi come in, and asked me if our green beans had any pork. I asked one of the cooks, and she told me no, so he ordered it. Five minutes later, he came back and pointed out a piece of meat in it. I looked in the greenbeans can and saw....a HOOF. yeah. Didn't even have to check the ingredients. After apologizing for at least five minutes, I changed his order to safe food (I checked every container of everything that went into those things myself) When I went to go talk to the cook who said that, she told me it was his problem. I gave her a complete lecture on WHY that had been wrong, and what the results could be, and told the manager. And apologized some more to the rabbi. It never happened again, that I know of.

And cooks aren't always mean. The ones I worked with were great to me (the lowest ranked employee who made salad-dressing, washed tables and cleaned bathrooms) They knew that I'd never take food on my own, and went out of their way to have something to offer me right before I left to go home (we were allowed free food, but I was shy about it) One cook in particular, knew I liked hashbrowns and would hand me a box every day as I left. And in the winter, when it was dark before I went home, every night, one of the cooks would come outside and watch me as far as they could see to make sure i got home safely. (I lived three blocks away, not far)

Finally, when I handed in my 2 weeks notice before leaving, the owner was really mad at me for leaving, since he wasn't likely to get a trained replacement for the pay he was offering, so he gave me a TON of extra work in addition to my regular work. The cooks were really indignant, and they covered it for me, as did the manager, throughout the day, so when I got there, I generally ran out of work to do.

So don't bash cooks!

Or managers. I loved my manager, he used to help me out with problems I'd have, and his wife would give me rides home from work when she came in. And protected all of us from the craziness of the owners. I still keep in touch, and go play D+D with him, and chat with his wife. They're not all bad.

And yes, lemons HURT.

Nut allergies are evil, my little sister has one, even the smell sets her off. We haven't had much in the way of problems at resturants, though. And at the one I worked at, we didn't use any but walnuts, and it was never an issue

I always enjoyed customers-the rude ones amused me, and the friendly ones were great to talk to. Mind, part of my amusement about the rude ones was that I was able to laugh with the manager about it afterwards.

I'd love to work at a resturant again, but it's not really an option for me-I can't go back to the old place, with the manager gone, the owners are very nicely suceeding in putting themselves out of business. I looked for other places-but they're all smoking. Which is really too bad. *loves resturant work*

[ May 10, 2004, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: Toretha ]

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AmkaProblemka
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Something else to note: When someone says they have celiac disease or a wheat allergy and order a salad without croutons, make up a new salad, don't just take the croutons off. They may ask for specific ingredients and it is very important to tell them everything that goes in, including plain old distilled vinegar and modified food starch. They are probably extremely embarrassed about having to be so irritatingly picky, but ingestion of gluten in any form can make them very sick. Usually my mom doesn't go out to eat. She makes her own bread out of rice and bean flour. She can have corn tortillas too (incidently, she brings her own bread to church and they put it on its own tray and bless it with the other bread for sacrament(communion)).

My husband was a cook in an earlier life too. Once when I had a plate that had a whole jalepeno he told me to make sure I break it in half to insure it didn't get on someone else's plate.

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Desu
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- my dime -

1. The over zealous and talkative bouncing bundle of serving fervor that asks you three times while you are eating if everything is satisfactory.

2. Those who do not understand that I am paying to get served and I really don’t care how bad their day has been.

3. The ones who forget me.

4. The French ones.

5. The ones who think I’m trying to steal their silverware.

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Farmgirl
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((Jaiden))

It must be very hard doing your apprenticeship there, and having to hear about these things.

Hopefully one day you will own your own restaurant, and can set your own rules to a higher standard.

My middle son wanted for many years to be a chef. He has since backed away from that idea. Perhaps that is a good thing, now that I hear more about how some restaurants are run...

Farmgirl

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PSI Teleport
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quote:
First of all, if you serve peanuts to someone with a peanut allergy, they could die.
You know what? If I had allergies to food that could possibly kill me, I think I'd make my OWN dinner. Why would you trust your life to these people over and over again? I wouldn't.
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Rakeesh
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I can understand many are upset by what Jaiden has said...but to think that she condones or does the things she described herself? Pretty insulting, don'tcha think?

If I were Jewish, or vegeterian, or allergic to a food product, and I didn't know these things already, frankly I'd be thanking her. Not only because a mildly-careful reading of the post reveals she doesn't do those things, but because a similar reading reveals she is upset about them. You might even say she was pissed off by them-but it takes a deep and careful reading to pick that part up.

Edit:
quote:
Have the right to do whatever you want?

His actions here can be murder. Just the fact that he's doing them should get him thrown out of his job.

Harsh? Not really. Murder is somehow a touchy subject with me.

Jaiden is a person of the female persuasion. Nor is she actually doing the things she described-she reported them to her management as is proper. And it's not murder, which requires intent.

-------------

Jaiden, I was a cook (hardly a chef) for a period of about two years, and unfortunately your experiences aren't uncommon. My workplace was spared some of the disgusting practices you described in part because the cooking areas (except for prep cooking) were right out in front of everyone. Didn't have any kosher issues that I know of, since it was an Italian restaurant.

The fact of the matter is that cooks for most (really, a huge majority) of restaurants aren't permanent or even long-term in any way. They're frequently switching jobs, they rarely like their jobs, and they don't get paid much. They're also not likely to be very well educated either. This adds up to people who don't understand why someone would say, "I can't have such and such non-kosher items in my food or near it". So when they don't understand it, they fall back on the commonly-experienced "customer is choosy" bit.

In other words, don't trust your health or your religious practices to people you haven't ever seen, who are likely to be only temporary employees, who are paid little, and who likely know little if anything about your allergy or practice. Sometimes the mistakes that result are just because of an accident or misunderstanding. Other times it is simply a result of selfish stupidity. I saw both many times. I'm not making a value judgement on cooks or waiters or the people who eat at restaurants who may have had problems-this is simple prudence.

Jaiden, have you considered reporting your restaurant or employees to a Canadian government agency? I have no idea what the proper agency would be. In America, I guess it would be the Better Business Bureau, or something. I think you should consider doing so, though-the things you've described are serious on levels both biological and offensive.

[ May 10, 2004, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]

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katharina
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[Razz]
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Dagonee
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Most restaurants (at least, most of the ones I've inquired about myself) won't guarantee peanut-free food and will specifically state this if asked. The reason is that cooking with peanuts in the kitchen can contaminate food that never touches them enough to cause the reaction in some people. No one needs that responsibility in their life.

I suppose it would be easier to maintain a kosher kitchen, but still very difficult if what I know about the restriction on separation of dishes is true. Can a kosher meal come out of a kitchen that even serves pork?

If the demographics made it economically feasible, I might hire a mashgiach (maybe only for some seatings) and advertise that. Regardless, I'd make darn sure I was up front that we can't guarantee peanut-free food nor can we claim to be kosher unless I knew for a fact we could meet the promise.

My restrictions aren't as severe as either of the ones mentioned already, but I've had pizza with lard in the sauce on Fridays during Lent so I can relate a little bit. (Don't get me started on the cafeteria in college that made macaroni and cheese one Friday and ADDED HAM TO IT!)

Dagonee
P.S., a peanut allergy is very different from a nut allergy - peanuts are legumes, I believe, not true nuts.

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Kama
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[Hail] Jeff
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Bob the Lawyer
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Whenever I eat out I pretty much assume that I'm going to be eating some animal products. Not because of any sort of malicious intent but more that people just don't realize how ubiquitous animal products are.

*shrug*

As for what agency you'd report this to, if you chose to go that route, would it be the CFIA?

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Ela
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Kat, could you please explain which part of this thread you were responding to that you thought warranted a [Razz] emoticon? Just wondering...
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katharina
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Jeff's last sentence before he edited.

Added: What else would it be?

[ May 10, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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Mrs.M
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Jaiden, I understand that you are in a difficult position. I have some information and advice for you (which you are free to ignore, of course).

First, it is illegal to serve non-Kosher food and claim that it is Kosher in the following U.S. states: California, Connecticutt, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Michigan, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, Washington, and Wisconsin. So if you ever work in any of these states, keep that in mind. I'm still researching Canadian laws and I'd appreciate it if you could post your link.

Here are some steps that I think you can take and still keep your job:
  • Encourage your hotel to get an EpiPen for their First Aid kit. An EpiPen is an auto-injector that administers epinephrine. This can keep the allergy victim alive long enough to get emergency treatment. My cousin Hallie always carries one with her. http://www.epipen.com/index.html
  • Anonymously report your hotel to local synagogues and/or Jewish organizations. They will take care of the rest.
  • Speak anonymously to someone in the media - a reporter for the newspaper or someone from a news show. Chances are they will jump at the story.

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BannaOj
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This is why Kama Con is going to be held in Skokie, where kosher rabbis inspect the kosher resturaunts 2 and 3 times per day.
I'm sure that Bob the Lawyer could eat vegetarian in a Kosher resturaunt there and be perfectly safe.

A side question, that I should probably put on the Rebbetzin thread, but since it is food related, do the rabbis get paid for their inspections or do they have real jobs too? I thought you were supposed to have a job where you earned your living as well as being a rabbi but I'm not sure.

AJ

Oh yes and Mrs. M I got my first Vogue magazine yesterday. I think I need a translator though because the fashion stuff isn't making a lot of sense, though I liked the gay marriage article. But I'm sure, like Playboy, while the articles are normally quite good, you don't actually read Vogue for the articles. Or do you?

AJ

[ May 10, 2004, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: BannaOj ]

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Dan_raven
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Here is an interesting side note.

Pizza Hut, Mc Donalds, and KFC both moved into India about the same time. Pizza Hit was a great success. Mc Donalds has had a hard time. KFC had to pull out. Why?

Animal Fat Fryers.

Pizza Hut avoids all animal products but those listed as ingredients, and strictly keeps the Pork away from other things. Pork is a big NO for the Islamic population.

Mc Donalds admitted using animal fat in its fryers, but started working around it. Vegetarian's there still don't trust Mc Donalds.

KFC said they had a vegetarian meal, only undercover reporters discovered the animal fat in their fryers. This lie has forced them to leave India for good.

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Mrs.M
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Congratulations, AJ! I do read the articles. I always tell people, though, that it's more like reading a textbook than a magazine. Email me the questions you have - I would love to discuss them in depth (naturally [Wink] ). Also, read SyleFax - it's fun and ALT is really perceptive and knowledgeable.
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BannaOj
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I read style Fax that was the part that was most confusing to me so far.

I don't know the histories, so with the comentary comparing designer A to B from X but adding their own flair, I got really really lost.

I did like the article that the model from India wrote. It was very interesting and well written.

AJ

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Rakeesh
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I think Jaiden would not serve non-kosher foods to someone requesting kosher (for any reasons, even simple taste) whether it was illegal or not. Of course, she is Canadian and therefore cunning and untrustworthy *suspicious glance*. It's those wee beady eyes.

Edit: Mrs. M's suggestions are good ones. They'd both a) put a stop to the practices real quick (`ceptin' remarks on your appearance in civvies-that's just on account of people havin' eyes [Razz] ), and it won't get you listed as a narc of any sort.

[ May 10, 2004, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: Rakeesh ]

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Noemon
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It's worth noting, though, that she just might put an addictive chemical in the kosher food she *did* serve, which would make you crave it fortnightly.
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Ayelar
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Dan, McDonalds got into a heck of a lot MORE trouble when it was discovered that, though they touted their fries as veggie-friendly due to the new use of vegetable oil, they were putting BEEF SEASONING on the fries. he-LLO? I don't know of any vegetarian OR Hindu who will ever set foot in a McDonald's again. Even I hate them for it.

[Mad]

[ May 10, 2004, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: Ayelar ]

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Dagonee
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Further info: in Virginia, misrepresentation of food as kosher is fraud (1-5 yrs possible sentence). A total of 22 states have them.

I bet it's been ruled criminal fraud in many states that don't have explicit statutes on it. After all, it's inducing the payment of money based on a lie.

Under common law torts, fraud is intentional misrepresentation upon which a person reasonably relies. This is probably actionable in every state, although proving damages may be difficult depending on the jurisdiction.

Proving intent is even more difficult: There's an interesting free exercise question here - what if there's disagreement about what makes food kosher? Can the government rule on what's "really" kosher? At least one court in California has said no, refusing to hear a case about a company suing a kosher certification council who withdrew certification for what the food producer claimed were invalid reasons.

Some quotes from a Law Review Article on the subject (Stephen F. Rosenthal, "Food For Thought: Kosher Fraud Laws and the Religion Clauses of the First Amendment", 65 Geo. Wash. L. Rev. 951):

quote:
A series of state court decisions shortly after the statute's passage built a firm body of precedent supporting the constitutionality of the statute against challenges that its operative language was unconstitutionally vague.

"whatever difficulty there may be in reaching a correct determination as to whether a given product is kosher, appellants are unduly apprehensive of the effect upon them and their business, of a wrong conclusion in that respect, since they are not required to act at their peril but only to exercise their judgment in good faith, in order to avoid coming into conflict with the statutes. Indeed, putting the statutes aside, such judgment they would be bound to exercise upon ordinary principles of fair dealing. By engaging in the business of selling kosher products they in effect assert an honest purpose to distinguish to the best of their judgment between what is and what is not kosher. The statutes require no more."

quote:
In 1947, however, the Supreme Court held that the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment applies to the states through the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. 54 This constitutional evolution called [*958] the preclusive effect of the Hygrade holding into question. Though several unsuccessful Establishment Clause challenges were filed during the following decades, 55 it was not until 1992, in Ran-Dav's County Kosher, Inc. v. New Jersey, 56 that any court held the language of a kosher fraud statute to violate the First Amendment. 57 By a four-to-three vote, the New Jersey Supreme Court in Ran-Dav's held that the use of "the substantive standards of the laws of kashrut" in the state's kosher fraud regulations was "fatal" under the Establishment Clause. 58 Since that time, the momentum against kosher fraud statutes has increased. The suit in Barghout followed closely on the heels of Ran-Dav's, and in late 1995, a unanimous panel of the Fourth Circuit held the Baltimore kosher fraud ordinance unconstitutional. 59 Most recently, two kosher food vendors filed suit in federal court in New York challenging the New York statute on Establishment Clause grounds.
Here are some of the potential objections and responses:

quote:
It is well settled that a statute does not have to have an "exclusively secular" purpose…. Consequently, it is not fatal for a statute to be "motivated in part by a religious purpose," 66 and courts have generally accepted government assertions about the purpose of a law as long as the law evinces a "plausible secular purpose." 67

Kosher fraud laws easily clear this hurdle. Their obvious secular purpose is "preventing and punishing fraud and protecting consumers." 68 As Maryland's highest court held, the Baltimore ordinance "was drafted to protect people from unscrupulous vendors who try to lure them into buying something less than what they are entitled to expect."

...

The beneficiaries of kosher fraud laws are more broadly defined. Although a large number of them are religious Jews, it may well be that the majority of kosher food shoppers are non-Jews.

quote:
1. Discrimination Among Jews
...
Judge Luttig contended that even if there were complete agreement among Jews that Orthodox standards define "kosher," he would still find the ordinance in violation of the Larson strict scrutiny test "because it singles out Orthodoxy for special protection, ... while at the same time protecting not at all adherents of the Conservative or Reformed sects against fraud in the labeling of food products that meet their dietary requirements." … A statute based on an Orthodox definition of kosher protects Conservative Jews equally only to the extent that they share Orthodox standards. Although he does not explain his objection in detail, Judge Luttig seems to be concerned with the small fraction of Conservative kosher practices that extend beyond the subset of protected Orthodox practices. … The problem, perhaps, lies in the potential inability of the state to prosecute such violations. If the state may not bring an action for fraud against a vendor whose food meets Conservative standards because a valid doctrinal dispute would require the court to dismiss the case, 109 how then could the state police the sale of foods that only purport to, but do not [*965] actually, meet Conservative standards? The answer is that the state probably could do so in those areas where the fraudulent element also violates Orthodox standards. For example, if swordfish is sold as "kosher swordfish," but the fish has been cooked together with meat - a mixture that both Conservative and Orthodox Jews agree robs fish of its kosher status - 110 it would not be impermissible for the state to bring an action for a violation of Orthodox kosher laws. The act being punished is not the selling of swordfish as kosher, but the selling of a non-kosher food, which happens to be swordfish, as kosher.

… kosher law enforcement almost always sticks to infringements of the areas that make up the core, uncontested areas of kashrut, 112 Judge Luttig's theory of underinclusion of Conservative Jews approaches the vanishing point of significance. One should be especially reluctant to condemn an effective consumer protection standard on underinclusiveness grounds when there is no evidence that the alleged victim of the standard feels slighted by it in any way. Indeed, the only evidence is to the contrary.

quote:
2. Discrimination Against Non-Jews

Muslim dietary practices present perhaps the strongest case for an underinclusiveness challenge to kosher fraud laws primarily because their dietary practices are governed by an explicit code, halal, that is easily represented by a "halal-approved" label or even a symbol. 125 Like Judaism, Muslim dietary rules consist of categorically excluded foods and required [*968] methods of food preparation. 126 Except for its prohibition on consuming alcoholic beverages, however, these dietary prohibitions appear to be a subset of the prohibitions of kashrut. Thus it seems unlikely that a food item that violates the rules of halal would not also violate the rules of kashrut. 127 Consequently, it is difficult to say that Muslims and Jews receive disparate protection from kosher fraud laws. Indeed, Muslims should properly be classed as beneficiaries of the laws.

Thus, it may be a perfectly fair [*970] and constitutionally adequate judgment by legislatures that the problem of kosher food fraud is significant enough to merit a separate law but the problem of halal food fraud does not even register on the map of social ills.

quote:
1. The Misrepresentation Element: Factual Falsity

This is the element that has most troubled courts that have considered the constitutionality of kosher fraud statutes. In every kosher fraud case, the government must prove that the defendant vendor's representation about the food in question was false. 163 This means proving that the food was, in fact, not kosher. Except in cases in which the defendant admits that the food is not kosher, the government must resort to a variety of religious sources to prove the falsity of the vendor's representation.

The neutral principles approach laid out by the Supreme Court in Jones v. Wolf 194 enables civil courts to render decisions on kosher status. In Jones the Court admonished civil courts construing church documents to "take special care to scrutinize [a] document in purely secular terms" and to avoid construing provisions that involve "religious concepts." …

The laws of kashrut are particularly amenable to this method of analysis because they are expressed almost entirely in secular terms. As noted in the introductory section of this Article, the rules mainly refer to "objectively ascertainable," "remarkably mundane" "physical attributes" of the food, 203 like what kind of animal the meat comes from - pig or cow - whether the sciatic nerve has been removed, whether meat and milk have been mixed, or whether the meat has been roasted over an open flame or soaked and salted for the proper duration of time.

Unquestionably, there are some issues within the detailed definition of kashrut that do not refer to objective, secular factors and on which civil courts could not pass. For example, the shochet - kosher slaughterer - is considered to hold a position of religious trust, and if he does not "maintain the standards of piety and skill worthy of his responsibility," 207 the product of his labor may be considered non-kosher. If an allegation were made that a particular piece of food was not kosher because slaughtered by an "impious" shochet, clearly courts could not resolve this dispute. …It should not be beyond the reach of a civil court to decide whether an objectively verifiable requirement of the slaughtering process - like whether the shochet severed the [*980] trachea and esophagus of the animal in a single knife-stroke 208 - has been met.

quote:
It is also possible that a kosher fraud prosecution might encounter a vendor who asserts religious beliefs in the meaning of kosher contrary to the "official" meaning derived from Orthodox Jewish law. If the government were to punish such a person - for instance, a Conservative Jew selling swordfish as kosher - it would contravene the fundamental Free Exercise Clause prohibition against punishing someone for "professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs." 246 … In Ballard, the government charged the defendants with making fraudulent representations about their status as divine messengers and their healing powers. 248 The Court held that the First Amendment forbids a court from ruling on the truthfulness of the defendants' religious representations. As Justice Douglas wrote for the Court: "Heresy trials are foreign to our Constitution. Men may believe what they cannot prove. They may not be put to the proof of their religious doctrines or beliefs." 249 The Court did, however, permit inquiry into the defendants' sincerity in their professed beliefs. 250 Presumably, [*986] a defendant found to be lacking sufficient sincerity can be held liable for committing a religious fraud. 251

It is a threshold question in any case in which the defendant asserts a Ballard-style defense whether the defendant has actually made a "religious" representation. … If the court finds the defendant insincere from the outset, nothing in the Free Exercise Clause requires the court to abstain from assessing the truth of the defendant's claims.

…One recent survey of case law on this point reveals at least eleven types of evidence that courts have used to determine the insincerity of a claimed religious belief.

Note: The article was published in 1997, I'm not looking up the pending case from the article on my break. So I don't know how it turned out. [Smile]

Dagonee

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Rakeesh
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*nods wisely* You are quite right, Noemon. I put nothing past the wicked wiles of a Canadian female.
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Phanto
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I am terribly sorry, Jaiden. [Frown]
I misunderstood your meaning. Please forgive me.

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Richard Berg
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quote:
(Don't get me started on the cafeteria in college that made macaroni and cheese one Friday and ADDED HAM TO IT!)
Was this a Jewish college [Confused]
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katharina
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I think there is a custom of only eating fish on Fridays, so adding ham would be violating that.
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Dagonee
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What kat said - during Lent, Catholics do not eat meat on Friday except from fish. Mac 'n' cheese is one of the four food groups for Catholics on Lenten Fridays (along w/ cheese pizza, fish sticks, and "pusghettis").

So they had this perfect meal, and they ruined it.

Dagonee

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Jaiden
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Mrs. M and others:

I have put wheels in motion to do things about this. I reported it to CFIA and I reported it to the Better Buisness Bureau of Canada

And they do have epipens at least [Smile]

I didn't think of talking to the local synagogues- I will have to do that.

As far as illegal or not... I talked to my "restraunt" law professor who tell me there is no exact law against it. False advertising, yes. But since we don't advertise as vegetarian or kosher we aren't breaking any laws. The people ordering are "requesting" it and we're apparently saying "we'll do our best". Which is not very good [Frown]

Phanto- it is okay. All is forgiven. I'd just warn you to be careful about telling people they're commiting murder- it's a rather touchy subject for all to be called a murderer [Frown]

Not all chefs are not educated! One of my bake professors is also a medical doctor. But then again... maybe all who have education have decided to teach as opposed to run a resturant...

[ May 10, 2004, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Jaiden ]

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Jaiden
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Me add adictive chemicals!? Why bother? Everybody knows pot will be legal soon and then everbody will have the munchies [Evil Laugh]
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BannaOj
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restauraunt is one of those words that I never spell correctly I can't even tell when it looks "right" or "wrong", it just always looks wrong even if it is right so I've given up!
[Wink]

AJ

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katharina
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Priviledge and Prejudice.
The bane of my spelling existence, and they get used on Hatrack ALL THE TIME!

*checks*

Dang. So close.

Privilege. Privilege. Privilege. Two i's, two e's, no d. Privilege.

[ May 10, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

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Jaiden
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Restaurant [Wink]

I misspell it when I'm not thinking and don't proofread afterwards [Smile]

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Bob the Lawyer
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Did you know twinky had a spell working for the CFIA?

Totally random and off topic, but I thought it was hilarious. I'm still made at him for not putting on the uniform and making a "random" inspection of the Waterloo caf [Mad]

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Ela
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quote:
Jeff's last sentence before he edited.

Added: What else would it be?

[ May 10, 2004, 01:11 PM: Message edited by: katharina ]

Sorry, Kat, I guess I don't get it, even with your edit. [Dont Know]
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katharina
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It just means I think he's funny. And accurate. And a little snarky, which I half admire and half dissaprove of.

[Razz] has many, many meanings. That's definition #34.

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Dan_raven
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I believe that the correct spelling, for this thread, is "Rest-or-rant"
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