posted
Now that the DVD is out, maybe I can get a few questions answered.
First, what changed Theoden's mind about helping Gondor? When Gandalf told Theoden about Pippen's encounter with the Palantir, Theoden asked why he should help Gondor. But when the beacons were lit, he said Rohan would answer. Where was the transition between attitudes?
Second, why did the Rohirrims have to wait for the beacons to be lit? Gandalf believes Pippen saw the enemy's plan. Why wait?
Third, why was Denethor against the lighting of the beacon? Later on he complains about the Rohirrims abandoning him. But why was he against calling them in the first place?
Fourth, what did Elrond mean when he said Arwen's fate is now intertwined with the fate of the ring?
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posted
For One, Theoden recodnized that if he did not Middle Earth would burn. He saw his destiny and last chance for glory.
For Two, If the Rohirimm (That is the plural not Rohirimms) had just showed up, it might be taken as an insult or threat by Denethor.
For Three Denethors crazy.
For Four, The power of the ring is that it destroys all that is good and beautiful, she was the purest and most beautiful thing in Middle Earth, so as the power of the ring grew, the weaker the most fair became.
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Actually all your answers make a lot of sense. But the movie fails to convey these ideas as clearly as you did. Posts: 1592 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
I speak elvish... three dialects, Dwarvish, Rhovanion, and am working on Rohanis. Im a huge Tolkien nerd. Long before the films.
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"First, what changed Theoden's mind about helping Gondor? When Gandalf told Theoden about Pippen's encounter with the Palantir, Theoden asked why he should help Gondor. But when the beacons were lit, he said Rohan would answer. Where was the transition between attitudes?"
Theoden, once roused by Gandalf into seeing that open war was inevitable, supported Gondor to the full ability of his realm. He always planned to go to Gondor's aid, as much as possible, since the oath between the two lines of kings (or stewards, in Gondor's case) to always aid the other at need had held true since the time of Eorl, when the lands which are now Rohan were first ceded by Gondor to the Rohirrim.
"Second, why did the Rohirrims have to wait for the beacons to be lit? Gandalf believes Pippen saw the enemy's plan. Why wait?"
The Rohirrim were actually summoned by the red arrow, which a messenger brought from Gondor to Rohan quite early. The beacons were lit to call all of Gondor's people who were widely scattered into the capital fortress city Minas Tirith, to prepare for war.
"Third, why was Denethor against the lighting of the beacon? Later on he complains about the Rohirrims abandoning him. But why was he against calling them in the first place?"
He was not against it, in fact. In the book the beacons were lit as Gandalf and Pippen approached Minas Tirith from Nan Curinir, the wizard's vale, where Saruman lived.
"Fourth, what did Elrond mean when he said Arwen's fate is now intertwined with the fate of the ring?"
That is all hogwash. Arwen's fate depended on the fate of the ring because she and Aragorn had pled their troth years before, on Cerin Amroth in Lorien, and Elrond gave his permission only on the condition that Aragorn regain the kingship of Arnor and Gondor, which required the defeat of Sauron. She didn't fall ill or anything like that. She was just the sort of chick who waited at home and watched from afar, planning and counseling during the course of the war. Sort of the way Andromache didn't fight on the field of Troy, but rather watched from the tower the way the battle was going and said "post some men by that fig tree", seeing more clearly from her overview position than Hector could see while on the field of battle. Eowyn was a sheildmaiden and ungentle, like me. Arwen was more of a proper lady than us. She had a huge role, but it was behind the scenes.
[ May 27, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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Don't forget that Arwen's main addition to the War of the Rings--the books--was her Embroidery and needle work for Aragorn's flag.
One other note: The Planitir show things that may be, but they don't come with a detailed calender function. Sauron's decision to invade came earlier than even he planned. In the movie, they signal, "Hey guys. Now!"
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posted
-"First, what changed Theoden's mind about helping Gondor?"
Because Rohan and Gondor are in a state of permanent alliance. Rohan used to belong to the Gondorian Empire, but they broke away peacefully about 500 years in the past. Also movie Theoden was being bitchy that Gondor was busy defending itself and couldn't send any forces to help him out....even though Gondor has saved Rohan from annihilation about 7 times in the past.
-"When Gandalf told Theoden about Pippen's encounter with the Palantir, Theoden asked why he should help Gondor. But when the beacons were lit, he said Rohan would answer. Where was the transition between attitudes?
Because Theoden woke up and realized that he was just making a rhetorical argument before...and realized that the ONLY hope of survival was to fight together. Otherwise they would be certainly picked off one at at time.
-"Second, why did the Rohirrims have to wait for the beacons to be lit? Gandalf believes Pippen saw the enemy's plan. Why wait?"
This is a mistake by PJ and company. Lord Denethor was the one to order the Beacons to be lit, alerting the remainder of the empire and it's allies. Sauron was moved into action by Aragorn claiming the Palantir, showing him who he was and also showing him the Sword. This bascially scared Sauron into attacking quickly. It was a ploy to make Sauron slip up.
-"Third, why was Denethor against the lighting of the beacon? Later on he complains about the Rohirrims abandoning him. But why was he against calling them in the first place?"
Another terrible mess up by PJ in an otherwise perfect movie. Lord Denethor was VERY wise and noble and good. He ordered the beacons lit. He ordered the defense of the City and sending the Southern Army to defend the coasts. PJ show him being wacko from the get go without showing his tragic fall. The Ruling Stewards have had command of the Minas Tirith Palantir for the past 1000 years. Denethor, with the death of his eldest and the second one dying and all Civilization about to be destroyed, looked into the Palantir for adivce... He had done battle with Sauron over the Palantir before and won, since the Palantiri are "genetically coded" to the Numenoreans... but his weakened state allowed Sauron to drive him into despair and convince him that the West had failed and the only hope was to kill himself and his family before they could be enslaved and tortured.
-"Fourth, what did Elrond mean when he said Arwen's fate is now intertwined with the fate of the ring?"
This was another mess-up. You've just happened to mention almost all the major messups in this! PJ and company were trying to dumb-down the real reason the Elven civilization was dying. The only thing sustaining them and their works were the Three Rings. They were bound up with the One. The Elves are doomed either way. Sauron gets his ring back and the Three are corrupted or good guys win and the One is destroyed, but the Three are so bound up with the One they will die shortly after. And what ak said too. [edit for spelling]
[ May 27, 2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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Ah now I doth know. It's actualy pretty easy to learn the languages, you just need to buy " The Dictionary of Tolkiens Languages" and have about three months of free time and boredom. Per language.
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Hmmmm, wellllll, only if you'll swear not to tell Legolas, I told him he was my main man, and if he found out I was dating another elf when he was off staring at Aragorns butt, he'd go crazy.
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posted
I want to quote something from the letters. This is from a letter to Christopher Tolkien on 11 July 1972 after his wife Edith had died, about a year before Tolkien died at the age of 81.
quote: I have at last got busy about Mummy's grave. . . . The inscription I should like is:
EDITH MARY TOLKIEN 1889-1971 Luthien
: brief and jejune, except for Luthien, which says for me more than a multitude of words: for she was (and knew she was) my Luthien.
Say what you feel, without reservation, about this addition. I began this under the stress of great emotion & regret -- and in any case I am afflicted from time to time (increasingly) with an overwhelming sense of bereavement. I need advice. Yet I hope none of my children will feel that the use of this name is a sentimental fancy. It is at any rate not comparable to the quoting of pet names in obituaries. I never called Edith Luthien -- but she was the source of the story that in time became the chief part of the Silmarillion. It was first conceived in a small woodland glade fliled with hemlocks at Roos in Yorkshire (where I was for a brief time in command of an outpost of the Humber Garrison in 1917, and she was able to live with me for a while). In those days her hair was raven, her skin clear, her eyes brighter than you have seen them, and she could sing -- and dance. But the story has gone crooked, & I am left, and I cannot plead before the inexorable Mandos.
I will say no more now. But I should like ere long to have a long talk with you. For as it seems probable I shall never write any ordered biography -- it is against my nature, which expresses itself about things deepest felt in tales and myths -- someone close in heart to me should know something about things that records do not record: the dreadful sufferings of our childhoods, from which we rescued one other, but could not wholly heal the wounds that later often proved disabling; the sufferings that we endured after our love began -- all of which (over and above our personal weaknesses) might help to make pardonable, or understandable, the lapses and darknesses which at times marred our lives -- and to explain how these never touched our depths nor dimmed our memories of our youthful love. For ever (especially when alone) we still met in the woodland glade, and went hand in hand many times to escape the shadow of imminent death before our last parting.
Beren and Luthien met when he saw her singing and dancing in a woodland glade, and later Aragorn and Arwen met the same way, when he was in the woods singing the Lay of Luthien and Arwen appeared and at first he thought he had been given the gift of bringing his songs to life. He chased her, too, as Beren did Luthien, and called her Tinuviel, which means nightengale.
Beren and Luthien, after death parted them, were given leave by Mandos to be together for a short while in happiness while still within the confines of this world.
This letter makes me cry. I love that man.
[ May 27, 2004, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: ak ]
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posted
Ah, Telpy, you slut! You chase all the hotties!
By the way, I want to paint a picture of you on one door of this large cabinet in my living room, with Laurelin on the opposite door. Would you mind posing for a portrait? I would love one in which your leaves are all rimmed with silver light, and with the light spilling from your boughs and branches to pool about your feet.
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quote:Sauron was moved into action by Aragorn claiming the Palantir, showing him who he was and also showing him the Sword. This bascially scared Sauron into attacking quickly. It was a ploy to make Sauron slip up.
Not quite. Aragorn showed himself and the sword to Sauron as a ploy to convince Sauron that he (Aragorn) had the ring and to divert Sauron's attention so that Frodo might have a chance.
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quote:First, what changed Theoden's mind about helping Gondor? When Gandalf told Theoden about Pippen's encounter with the Palantir, Theoden asked why he should help Gondor. But when the beacons were lit, he said Rohan would answer. Where was the transition between attitudes?
Second, why did the Rohirrims have to wait for the beacons to be lit? Gandalf believes Pippen saw the enemy's plan. Why wait?
Third, why was Denethor against the lighting of the beacon? Later on he complains about the Rohirrims abandoning him. But why was he against calling them in the first place?
I think the more important question is, why did Peter Jackson turn so many characters in the movie into pansies? The Ents won't go to war until they see the forest cut down (yeah, like they didn't realize what was going on). Theoden wants to hole up in Helm's Deep and wait for the storm to pass. Denethor won't call for aid, so Gandalf and Pippin have to be sneaky and light the beacons themselves. Theoden doesn't want to help his age-old ally, but then suddenly changes his mind. Why? It seems like the only truly heroic characters are the members of the fellowship. Is that really necessary?
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Oh thank you, you magnificient Tolkien nerds. It is good to know that my confusion is justified.
quote:"Don't forget that Arwen's main addition to the War of the Rings--the books--was her Embroidery and needle work for Aragorn's flag."
That is actually my biggest beef with the movie. I loved the scene where the standard of Aragorn was unfurled on the lead ship of the Corsairs. "Thus came Aragorn, son of Arathron...."
quote:"sticks thumbs in pockets and strikes up his sexiest gay elf pose*"
"Gay" elf? That's a bid redundant isn't it?
quote:Psssssst! vwiggin! Did we answer your questions? Any more?
Yes, thank you! I do have one more. The Shire was a very fertile land even before the gift of Galadriel. Does anyone else think that might be because the Ent wives once dwelled in that region?
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I don't know about the Entwives, but it seems to make sense. Treebeard was very curious about the Hobbits, as they weren't on the list of creatures. To me that is a sign that the Shire was farthere than the Ents had traveled, at least in recent Ages, adn the Entwives went wandering to new lands unknown to them, so it is possible.
Of course, now that Tolkien is dead, we'll never know for sure....
I think that PJ needed to show how mad Denthor was, and didn't have enough time to show his decline properly., so he did the best he could.
Rohan didn't enter Gondor until the beacons were lit (or the Red Arrow arrived, in the books) because it could be seen as an act of aggression.
Also, remember that Theoden had been under the influence if Grima (wormtongue) for a long time, and it took him a while to regain his vitality. Also, even in the books Theoden though that some of his people could be safe away from the conflict in Helms Deep, which had never fallen. However, the battle at Helms Deep proved that no fortress is inpenatrable, so his only path of salvation was to follow Aragorn to Gondor.
Also, Aragorn showed himself to Sauron to accomplish both objectives mentioned. He wanted to draw Saurons eye away from Mt.Doom to give Frodo a chance. Also, he knew that the modern Alliance wasn't as strong as the earlier one, and had no chance of beating Sauron, particularily if Sauron stayed behind in Mordor. So he hoped to make Sauron slip up, and do some slight of had as well, by scaring Sauron into believeing he was stronger that he was, and possibly in possion of the One Ring himself. Gandalf said that Aragorn was one of the only things Sauron feared, and that his biggest fear was that the One Ring would fall into Aragorns hands, for is Arasgorn claimed it as his own then he would become more mighty (possibly) than Sauron himself.
Of course, Aragorn would havew been irrovacably corrupted by diong so, but Sauron would still have been defeated, so fro Sauron's presumed prospective, it would be horrible.
Just a follow up. Several of you have mentioned that the riders of Rohan cannot charge into Gondor without invitation. I'm a little confused about that.
I thought the muster of Rohan took place before Theoden received the Red Arrow. Theoden said to the Gondorian messenger: "We will come. The weapontake was set for the morrow. When all is ordered we will set out."
Didn't Theoden intend to ride to Minas Tirith with or without summons? The road between the two countries was blocked by a strong force of Orcs. It was pure luck that the Red Arrow reached Theoden. If Theoden didn't receive the summons was he just going to sit back and relax?
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The Shire.... well.. maybe the Entwives were there... but the Shire was originally the primary farm lands for the North Kingdom given as a fief to the hobbits since the pouplation of Arnor had shrunk so much.
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I was disappointed with Denethor in the movie. They'd already done a bit of work to show that the Palantir was dangerous - if only they'd started Denethor as tired and starting to crack, shown him using the Palantir after Faramir's "death" and then had him go completely bonkers, a lot of things would have been much better with the movie.
As far as Theoden not wanting to go to Gondor's aid: while not in the books, I thought it was a natural thing for Theoden. All these people were telling him what he needed to do when he had just escaped Wormtongue and Saruman's influence. He needed to feel in control again, and good advice or no, he resented their input. I can see the movie's Theoden saying something like that in the heat of the moment and then changing his mind after he's had some time to cool down a bit and think.
Also, IIRC, I remember hearing somewhere (an interview with PJ or Phillipa), that their reasoning concerning Arwen and her fate being tied to the Ring came from her replacement of Glorfindel: she said something along the lines of, "Whatever grace is given to me, please pass it to him." That tied her to his fate, and since there was no mention of the elves being tied to the three Rings of Power, that had to do.
The more that I think about it, the more I am upset by Denethor's misrepresentation. I can only hope the Special Edition has the right material in there. I already have decided that I'm not going to watch the theatrical version of Two Towers again (too much important missing material); it may be the same with Return of the King.
posted
I thought in the books Treebeard even says that the Shire sounds like a place the entwives would like or something to that effect.
While I like the fact they gave Treebeard some Tom Bombadil lines (more in the EE) I really wish they hadn't used John Rhys Davies for the voice. I know they were in a pinch at the time, but they didn't alter it enough through the processing and I still hear Gimli instead.
posted
There are so many things about the movies that bother me. Since we're talking about Theoden, it bothered me that the films depicted Grima's influence over Theoden as an actual spell that made him old. I had always pictured that influence as more of a suggestion; Grima tells Theoden over and over again how old he is, and Theoden believes it until Gandalf comes and reminds him that he is a warrior. I think the fact that Theoden actually is old, but then remembers the strength he has makes him much more heroic. Or is my memory of that part of the books wrong?
quote:I think the more important question is, why did Peter Jackson turn so many characters in the movie into pansies?
Probably my biggest complaint about the film version of Lord of the Rings is that I think they really got Frodo (really, all of the hobbits, except maybe Sam) wrong. One of the deep, resounding themes for me from the books is that strength is found in unexpected places, that the littlest people end up being the most important in the world. Frodo is, to me, a very strong, very noble character. But so many of the scenes in the story that showcase that are stolen from him in the film. One that sticks out from Fellowship is the Ford of Bruinen. In the book, Frodo makes his stand alone, but in the movie he has to be rescued by Arwen. Stuff like that kept happening in the movies and it made me so angry. Another scene I hated in the films was the part in Rivendell where Bilbo sees the ring on Frodo's neck. In the movie, he sees it by accident, then turns into a Gollum-looking monster and grabs for it. In the book, he asks to see it, starts to lose it, then masters himself and tells Frodo to put it away. That scene is possibly my favorite in the whole series because of the strength and anguish that Bilbo displays, and Jackson robbed him of it in the film.
Sorry for the rant. I can't believe I'm still so passionate about this.
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Saxon, while there was a spell of some sort on Theoden, you are absolutely right.
And I agree about Frodo. Frodo was supposed to be the most independent and "elvish" of all the hobbits. Elijah was a great suffering Frodo...perfect for ROTK...but not as a strong Frodo needed for FOTR and TT. I don't know if it was Wood's acting or Jackon's direction who made the mess up...
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quote:As far as Theoden not wanting to go to Gondor's aid: while not in the books, I thought it was a natural thing for Theoden. All these people were telling him what he needed to do when he had just escaped Wormtongue and Saruman's influence. He needed to feel in control again, and good advice or no, he resented their input. I can see the movie's Theoden saying something like that in the heat of the moment and then changing his mind after he's had some time to cool down a bit and think.
Yeah, I can see it too, but what really bothered me about Theoden was Helm's Deep. In the book, he decides to ride out with his army to counter the forces of Isengard. Gandalf rides out ahead and realizes that the enemy is too large to face, so then they hole up at Helm's Deep to avoid slaughter. The women and children were left behind at Edoras because Helm's Deep lay between Edoras and Isengard, so it would've been stupid to send them toward an oncoming army in an attempt to find safety.
quote:Sorry for the rant. I can't believe I'm still so passionate about this.
No reason to be sorry. Despite all its flaws, The Lord of the Rings is still an amazing series. No matter how awesome the movies are, they still miss a lot of things, and there are a lot of changes that cheapen the characters, I think. Maybe the problem is that we're not used to that sort of heroism in our entertainment today. Maybe we expect people to be more hesitant, more self-interested, and more apt to crack under pressure.
Hmm. I'll have to think about that some more.
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OMG...I just realized something that has been bugging me.
During all the Minas Tirith shots the sunlight, while beautiful always seemed strange. And the Ride of the Rohirrim bugged the crap out of me too... because they were coming in from the North and suddently the sun is behind them?!! I figured it was a PJ ploy to show the power of light on the good guys side...
And now I put two and two together and realize it's probably a New Zeland/Southern Hemisphere thing. In the southern hemisphere the sun is to the north! DOH!
Fine I guess... but it kinda distracts that this is supposed to be ancient Europe. Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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I would guess that it really was just a directorial thing to show the good guys bringing light with them.
The thing that bugged me was that it wasn't nearly as dark as I imagined it. In the book, it's repeatedly said that they could hardly tell day from night by the end. I think I remember that the Rohirrim crested the hill and could see hardly anything besides campfires and the burning city. The clouds of Mordor started to clear later as a wind came in from the south (a little ahead of Aragorn's party).
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Exactly John Boy. Too much light. But they were trying to show off the towers of the City. Especially Mordor. It's supposed to be Hell on Earth...not partly cloudy.
But I think they were going for the most realistic setting....putting away supernatural weather as much as possible for more realistic weather patterns.
The partly cloudy Mordor can be explained however because the great North/West gale wind was blowing from Manwe at that time...
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quote: One that sticks out from Fellowship is the Ford of Bruinen. In the book, Frodo makes his stand alone, but in the movie he has to be rescued by Arwen.
I hate to say it, but I don't think this is true, if I'm thinking of the part you are. This is where the ringwraiths show up and are washed away by the river, no? It wasn't Arwen in the books, but an elf did rescue Frodo here.
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