Consider that I'm doing you a favor; if I can slow down recruiting so that you never become the majority culture anywhere else, you can continue to be offended by this kind of unjust criticism as long as it only applies to people born in a small geographic corridor.
You know, I think that Mormonism is a somewhat slim majority in Utah, and that's only if you count the total number of members, not the number of active members.
quote:Nope. My point is that when people try to make their children live the lives they want them to....
I don't mean to be rude, but who are you to tell someone else how to raise their children?
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AJ:"the leaders AREN'T chosen. They VOLUNTEER."
All right then, who do the volunteers come to when they want to volunteer? Isn't there somebody that gives the volunteers their OK? Are all people willing to volunteer allowed to do so? And what happens when there are no volunteers, or not enough? Doesn't somebody go around and ask people in the community if they would be willing to get involved?
The LDS system isn't much different from this. It's just more formalized.
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afr, thanks for that. It doesn't refute my point (I didn't use universals), but it appears to not apply to you.
kat, I disagree that it ought to be blurred. It's one thing for a church (ANY church) to provide money and resources for a troop.
I think it's a whole other (weird, IMO) thing to utilize the an ecumenical group's structure (which was presumably to increase the pool of participants) to essentially create a unoffical arm of the religion. Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean it's agreeable. See the whole "felons go door-to-door" thread as an example of that. By essentially ensuring that the LDS troops are always run by LDS, I think it looks, to the outside, as the LDS leveraging the resources of a separate group in a way that is not in the spirit of that group.
Now, maybe the spirit of the group has changed. The question is then why?
posted
I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.
Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?
posted
Okay, here's the opinion from a Mormon who has been in several bishoprics (the group that leads the congregation) and chosen boy scout and cub scout leaders:
When we have needed a new scout leader for the boys, regardless of age, we have not considered who was the most spiritual, who was the best teacher of religion, who could best hynotize the boys into following "the path," or who would be best at indoctrinating the kids into being good little future robot missionaries.
In every case, we looked for a person who enjoyed working with kids, who had the time needed to do the job, and who the kids would like and respect. Scoutmasters are men that often become second fathers or substitute fathers for boys and so they must be moral men of good conscience. We used to joke that the best scoutmasters were retired grandpa types with pick-ups and a little extra cash.
Some leaders have worked out well and done good jobs. Others have not. It is the same kind of statistic you will find in any organization or business. The people who were asked to work with the boys were also not required to do so, but only asked to do so. They had right of refusal.
You are also permitted within the LDS church to "call" a non-Mormon to be a scout leader; membership is not required (and we have had several scout leaders that fit this profile). Guess that kind of throws out the indoctrination theory.
Now, as far as the gay question goes, the LDS Church will drop the BSA program like a hot potato if BSA is required to allow gays into the organization. Elder Boyd K. Packer, President of Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, has stated this publicly. He is also one of the biggest scout supporters within the church!
We have lived in areas where there were not enough LDS kids to form our own troops or packs and have gone into conjunction with other schools or churches to form these groups. In one town, the cub scouts were sponsored jointly by three different churchs. The three clergymen sat down together, as the representatives of the sponsoring organizations, and selected den mothers, cub masters, etc. This was done with the idea of providing the best leadership possible to the boys, regardless of the religious beliefs of the leader or the church affiliation of each boy.
All LDS boys are not required to be actively involved in the program and work towards their eagle rank. In one congregation, we had separate groups on our youth night for the boys in scouting versus the boys who were not interested. The boys who did not care for the program far outnumbered the scouts.
All of this said, I must now state that I have a major dislike for the scouting program and the way that it is often administered. I am one of those who would not mind it if the LDS church dropped it's sanctioning of the program.
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Sticks nose in to say that I though ludosti had the best comments in the whole thread, and seems to have the best understanding of what disturbs Tom about LDS involvement in the BSA.
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posted
U of U, in my experience (which isn't directly with the Boy Scouts so Tom please correct me) is that there are Never Enough Volunteers. This means that the volunteers that are volunteering have to have an extra amount of commitment and dedication as a result. They are never assigned to work anywhere except as the leaders get together and figure out strengths and weaknessess and divvy up jobs accordingly.
The turnover of leaders generally comes with the age of the kids they are parenting. They might stay in for a while after their own children move through the ranks and possibly volunteer from strong positive experiences in their own lives, but on average that is how you get the volunteer turnover. There will always be new parents coming in as thier particular child grows up, and there will always be a few parents leaving as they move on with that stage of their lives.
The nice thing is kids who don't have parents with the time money or ability to volunteer, benefit from the parents who do volunteer.
posted
Tom's description is like when your arm goes to sleep and when you touch it it feels like someone else's arm. Kind of an exhilaratingly creepy sensation. Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I am still having a hard time understanding. So please, those who are disturbed by the LDS Church's involvement in Scouting: tell me what is wrong. What are we doing wrong? What should we do differently? Please be specific.
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Your leadership publicly embraces the Scouts at the highest levels of the church.
No other churches, even those who have Scouting programs locally would go that far.
As theca mentioned there was some interersting Catholic involvment in the Eagle ceremony she attended, but you don't see the Catholic Cardinals in the US publically and grandiosely making the same sweeping proclamations about the Boy Scouts that you see the LDS leadership making.
Also Catholics (while they are theoreically) don't have the "proselytizing" focus that LDS and other protestant groups have. Come on, how many times have you been actively recruited into Catholicism?
AJ
I guess I lied, after a quick google it does apear that a catholic organization does exists though I don't know how officially sanctioned it is. I'd never heard of it before, which is telling since I was raised in the western U.S. where even though there is an extremely high Catholic population, Scouting is seen as the domain of the LDS church.
quote: the Mormon church takes great steps to promote activities within its own circle. Many of these activities are essentially mandatory, and are very time-consuming.
I wonder what mandatory activities you mean? There are activities provided for the youth one night a week, but you would be very hard pressed to back up the claim that these activities are "essentially mandatory". The kids come or not as they like, or in some cases as their parents like. Just as with, say, the track team or piano lessons. In any congregation there are certainly kids who choose not to participate and it is no big deal.
quote: Most of its membership feels pressured to spend two years of their lives in an unfamiliar city, accompanied by a core group of fellow members and completely -- and deliberately -- cut off from contact with the surrounding culture, with the intent of doing both good works and learning/spreading doctrine.
This is such a gross mischaracterization of missionary work that it is laughable. -In an unfamiliar city, yes. Actually in many unfamiliar cities. - accompanied by a core group of fellow members, no. Missionaries work in pairs. There is not much contact with other missionaries. Basically everything is worked out between the missionary and his companion with minimal supervision and a set of missionary guidelines. -and completely -- and deliberately -- cut off from contact with the surrounding culture, absolutely not.Missionaries are immersed in the culture. They spend their entire time interacting with people, many times an American missionary's companion is a member of a different culture. The people they interact with are not Mormons. How does this count as isolation, exactly?
quote: Its members often believe themselves to be victims of persecution, and speak repeatedly of not being "of the world." In fact, I've seen the word "worldly" used as a cutting insult.
The only members I know who believe themselves to be victims of persecution are: a) Those who really are victims of persecution (this varies by locale- most American Mormons alive today have not been). and B) Jettboy
quote: Dominate: the Mormon church identifies activities that are "good" and takes steps to fold those activities into their control.
I really have no idea what you are talking about here. Can you give me an example? If you are thinking of Boyscouts then please recall that Boy Scouts is designed to embrace religious organizations and include religious teachings as part of the curriculum. It is meant to be "dominated" by the sponsoring organization.
quote: Members are expected to regularly visit other members to discuss religion and, not incidentally, check up on them.
Well, this is certainly true, though members don't go where they are not wanted and a simple request to not visit is generally honored.
quote: Members are routinely assigned tasks by church leadership; these tasks can include additional religious teaching.
Heh- who else would do the work? We have a lay clergy, remember?
quote: Peer pressure within Mormon communities is fairly heavy and, from what I've seen, Southern-style gossip is almost a sport; this ensures that deviation from the norm is punished almost immediately.
Unfortunately this can be the case. However, I would really love to see the human institution in which this is not true.
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posted
An article along the lines of what Mr. Davidson is saying.
Query: If the LDS Church wanted to thoroughly hijack Scouting, wouldn't they do vicarious temple work for the founding father of Scouting: Robert Baden-Powell?
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I just want to give a little different perspective on LDS culture.
The Mormon church is not a Utah church. It is not an American church. There are more LDS members worldwide outside of the United States than inside of it. In America, there are more members outside of Utah than in it. There are more Mormons in California than in Utah.
The majority of LDS kids grow up outside of large LDS communities. The majority of LDS kids do not attend church-sponsored Universities.
I grew up in Colorado which - despite its proximity to Utah - has a very low density of church members. I was one of two members of the church in my junior high school of 800 students. I had young women's meetings (the girls' equivalent to scouting - but sponsored totally by the church) once a week and lived 20 miles from my chapel. At the age of 13, I longed for these opportunities to associate with other girls my age of my faith. I wanted to be surrounded by them. I couldn't wait for Girls' Camp every summer, where the entire stake young women's organization had a week-long campout for LDS girls. I brought non-LDS friends to camp and we all enjoyed it. Girls' Camp is far more religious than scouting.
I was not isolated from my community - I went to Kiwanis with my Lutheran friends. I was in the Kids for Saving the Earth club. I was in Girl Scouts. But none of these activities was as important to me as my weekly young women's activities because I treasured the time with my LDS friends where I felt comfortable talking about my religion and didn't feel like I was being looked down upon for being different.
In a situation like this, why don't you ask the boys involved? They're teenagers - they're capable of telling you their thoughts on scouting. And before assigning a way of life to a religion based on a small area where a minority of them live in large concentrations, please examine how the religion works worldwide.
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AJ:"Your leadership publicly embraces the Scouts at the highest levels of the church. No other churches, even those who have Scouting programs locally would go that far."
Probably true, but then again, I don't know of any other church that is organized the way ours is either, with such strong central direction and coordination. I think other churches tend to have greater local variation and autonomy in most areas, even the Catholic church.
Let me see if I understand this objection. You would rather not see the central leadership of the Church telling its local congregations that they should get involved in Scouting? If this is it, then please explain why.
AJ:"Also Catholics (while they are theoreically) don't have the "proselytizing" focus that LDS and other protestant groups have."
We have already assured you that proselytizing does not go on in the LDS troops. Are you saying, then, that local congregations of churches that actively proselytize should never be allowed to organize Scout troops, even if the troops are not used this way? Why?
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"How does this count as isolation, exactly?"
As I understand it, missionaries have restricted access to E-mail and other communications and cannot participate in many forms of popular entertainment. They are also discouraged from excessive socialization, and their schedules are designed to keep them fairly occupied.
Is this incorrect? I've heard missionaries here at Hatrack complain about these very things.
--------
"please examine how the religion works worldwide."
Annie, I can't do this -- because since the Mormon goal is to be the majority religion worldwide, we have to judge its quality as a culture based on the places where it IS the majority.
posted
This is a fast-growing thread, and I have not read all of it yet, but I would like to offer a comment.
I was having dinner with a family that Ron and I have admired for some years (because of the close, loving and involved relationships between the parents and children). The family is a bit older than ours, and the oldest child (a model of the dutiful, clean-living son) had just started college.
I mentioned that I was considering getting Robert in Scouts. He hates team sports. He hates going to gymnastics, even, and whines about martial arts. We just wanted something to get him, well, moving.
Dawn (the mom of the family) laughed, and said she'd thell me what was told to her by some men she used to work with in retail. All five of them (one a former eagle scout) all five of them said they had been molested in Scouts. They told her, "Whatever you do, keep little Micheal out of Scouts." So she did.
And really, would Boyscouts seem as attractive an activity to any parent after that story? I suppose I should mention that all five of those men were also gay, though I don't know if that is relevant or not, really.
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quote: I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.
Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?
Banna- am I right that you have no kids? Because to a parent this remark is completely unrealisitic. Sure you want your kids to make their own decisions, but it is a long, hard road before they get to the point when they can understand consequences enough to make good decisions. If I left it up to my daughter she would eat only pizza and candy, would watch movies all day and would never sleepuntil she dropped from utter exhaustion.
Parents are the ones who instill in kids their sense of what is right and what is wrong, acceptable and unacceptable. It isn't possible to just let them grow in a vacuum and then make their own decisions when they are ready.
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posted
skillery, while that organization you linked to is clearly one of the fundamentalists organizations off the deep end and there are some slight inaccuracies (the exact way they refer to mormon "priests") being one, it does accurately portray I think the reaction of many against the LDS involvment in the BSA.
quote:Most of its membership feels pressured to spend two years of their lives in an unfamiliar city, accompanied by a core group of fellow members and completely -- and deliberately -- cut off from contact with the surrounding culture, with the intent of doing both good works and learning/spreading doctrine.
Tom-- I think that your cynicism is showing just a bit with your description of missionary service as 'cut off' from the culture.
Example: Italians drink lots of wine. As a missionary, I never had a sip.
Was I isolated from the culture? No-- I steeped myself in Italian culture. I still dream in Italian. I can still smell Italy sometimes. I taught my kids about La Befana, le masche. . . carnivale.
Gah, now I'm angry. How dare you say I was cut off from Italy and from Italians? I LOVED that place, those people.
Love! I was connected to the Italians more deeply than anything I'd ever experienced before, and you have the GALL to suggest I was CUT OFF from them?
Have YOU known what it is to feel that way, Tom? Not just with one person, but with a society, a people? I was in love, Tom, not isolation.
quote:Dawn (the mom of the family) laughed, and said she'd thell me what was told to her by some men she used to work with in retail. All five of them (one a former eagle scout) all five of them said they had been molested in Scouts. They told her, "Whatever you do, keep little Micheal out of Scouts." So she did.
They worry about that all the time here. Seriously. There are all sorts of rules that are supposed to prevent that, including background checks and always-two-leaders-together rules. There should be NO activity where only one leader is in charge of the boys. That's seriously the worst nightmare for the BSA. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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skillery:"Query: If the LDS Church wanted to thoroughly hijack Scouting, wouldn't they do vicarious temple work for the founding father of Scouting: Robert Baden-Powell?"
What do you want to bet it's been done already?
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posted
This is so typical of LDS-related threads here that question LDS activities. People are tripping over each other to be more insulted and offended than the previous.
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quote:Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*?
To be honest, I think I would be happiest and proudest if I raised my kids to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that were the same as mine. But at the same time, I don't want my kids to be members of the Church just because it's expected—I want them to want to be members. I'm sure it would break my heart if one of my children decided to leave the Church. But would I think they were just disrespectful and needed a good thwapping? Not at all.
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quote:quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I guess it depends on your definition of maturity with respect to raising children.
Would you be happy and proud if you raised yours children to think on their own and come to independent conclusions that might differ from yours? Or would you consider a child disagreeing from a thoughtful rationale as disrespectful and in need of a good *thwappping*? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Banna- am I right that you have no kids? Because to a parent this remark is completely unrealisitic.
It is? Imagine my surprise, having raised two great kids to think on their own and come to their own conclusions...
They both definitely have minds of their own, often don't agree with me and their dad, and many here can testify to the fact that they really are great kids.
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"because since the Mormon goal is to be the majority religion worldwide, we have to judge its quality as a culture based on the places where it IS the majority."
I don't think many Mormons have the delusion that they are supposed to become the majority religion worldwide. A worldwide church, yes, and widely known and understood, yes. And that is happening.
And Utah is not representative of the church as a whole.
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posted
So the Church has done temple work for Robert Baden-Powell; they've installed President Monson in the National Council; the Church is the single largest sponsoring organization of the BSA, and I'll bet the National Council gets most of their funding from the Church. I'd say the BSA has been thoroughly Mormonized. Why do we have a problem with that?
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Olivia, to me, that's a great reason to only have my son in a Scout troop (currently Cub Scouts) run by people I know and trust. The fact that since all the members are also Orthodox Jews means I don't have to worry about events being scheduled on Saturdays or Jewish holidays, and the food will be kosher.
If there were no such local troop, he might have joined another troop, but I would have been more hesitant, and it would be more difficult.
I suspect the LDS members whose kids are part of LDS troops choose them for similar reasons -- not having to worry about religion-related conflicts (dietary restrictions, scheduling issues) and the comfort of knowing and trusting (many of) the group leaders.
Now, if we could only get the local Girl Scout troop back . . .
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quote:since the Mormon goal is to be the majority religion worldwide, we have to judge its quality as a culture based on the places where it IS the majority.
The LDS church is fully aware that it is nowhere near being a worldwide majority. The concept of having "stakes of Zion" (which is how we refer to our stake organizations) is having places all over the world where members can gather together, whatever society they may be in.
Why can't we judge the quality of LDS culture based on the people who live the teachings while surrounded by differing cultures and beliefs? This is, after all, how 80% of LDS church members live and is a far more accurate analysis of what it means to be a church member than an observation of life in Utah.
I consider myself a full practicing member of the church, as one of our prophets said, "dyed in the wool, true blue through and through." I have never lived in Utah or any other area with a large Mormon population. I go to school at a university with 11,000 students, 100 of which are LDS. But I've still participated fully in church programs and my brother is an eagle scout. Why don't we count as an accurate depiction of what an LDS person is?
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quote: Banna- am I right that you have no kids? Because to a parent this remark is completely unrealisitic. Sure you want your kids to make their own decisions, but it is a long, hard road before they get to the point when they can understand consequences enough to make good decisions.
Yes I have no kids. Notice I said the child should back up his opinions with thoughtful rationale. Yes difining thoughtful rationale is a judgement call, but I doubt you could get thoughtful rationale from your pizza and candy eating daughter, the whole point is exactly to get them to the point of thoughtful rationale.
Now the question is, when your child does get to that point (which varies widely with age, see Ender for details) what do you do when your child comes up with a list of thoughtful reasons for disagreeing with you? Do you respect their right to make their own decisions or not? (I actually have observed the answer to this question of parenting falling exactly down classic Liberal and Conservative lines but that is a different issue)
The other problem is that people that think they are right won't actually listen to dissenting thoughtful rationale, which is why I have been near ostracised from my own family.
posted
I'm not hiding. This is the only name here I use. It was given to me some time ago by the person who had registered it. Considering my opinions when I began using the name actively, I'm still surprised it hasn't been canned already. Guilty by association and all that.
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OK, I admit it, I'm still confused about why this is a bad thing; but I think I'm getting closer to it. Can I try something? I'll list out why i think it's a good/not bad thing and someone can point out either which one(s) of my reasons are wrong and what reasons for being a bad thing I missed.
BSA has to be sponsered by someone, and if the Church dropped it, many of those clubs would simply dissapear, most would not be picked up by other organizations.
BSA is a tool, designed to meld with it's sponsering organization (with specific guidelines as to how much). The LDS Church is using it as that tool, and not using it as something it's not supposed to be (meaning, for example, that it doesn't use it to teach religious princibles, or "indoctrinate", but focus on the purpose of BSA, life skills and all that).
Though others are allowed to join, the LDS sponsered ones are clearly LDS, meaning you don't just stumble into an LDS sponsered one, and the idea of using something as a tool for conversion when almost none of the people it affects *need* that conversion seems a bit silly.
posted
Jacare, I don't actually feel that way, but I felt you were being at least a little snarky yourself.
I don't think that missionary work is equivalent to what I described. I have no problems with it.
--- Jalapeno, thanks for the info; the fact that you will look outside the group (though not likely as a first choice) is a more concrete reassurance. It also renders my earlier argument incorrect.
posted
AJ, I think that a lot of parents struggle with these issues with their children, especially if they have strong beliefs. Some of them handle it immaturely (as I believe your parents did). It is not strange for someone with strong religious beliefs to want their child to believe also. But they should want that child to believe willingly, not to be "duped" or "forced" into it. I would be sad if one of my children decided they didn't believe in God, very sad. It would be very difficult for me to deal with.
But "thwap"? No. Children grow up. They become adults that think for themselves. Parents have to let go. You just can't continue to exert the same control over them that you did when they were 3. I know some parents do, and I don't agree with it.
Tom, you believe that people of religious mindsets try to brainwash others into believing as they do, perhaps because from your perspective you can't imagine any other reason why someone would convert. It doesn't make sense to you. You seem to be very disapproving of "proselyting", but in my mind you are one of the strongest proselyters on this board.
It seems to me you want to actively steer people away from religious beliefs. But you choose to poke fun at and belittle other's beliefs. It is subtle, but it is there. I see a fair amount of that coming from agnostics and athiests here, actually. On the other hand, I see very little of that coming from the religious minded here. That is just how things look from my perspective.
Maybe I am the only one who sees it that way. Maybe it is because I am religious that it seems that way, and my view is skewed. Difficult to tell for sure.
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quote: We have already assured you that proselytizing does not go on in the LDS troops. Are you saying, then, that local congregations of churches that actively proselytize should never be allowed to organize Scout troops, even if the troops are not used this way? Why?
I'll ask a question in return.
Given human nature, we know that sadly sexual abuse though nearly universally publically condemned does occassionally happen in the BSA (and other youth groups).
In light of this, something that shouldn't happen but happens anyway, how am I to believe that proselytizing (even if rare) doesn't go on among denominational based(of any religion) Boy Scout Clubs?
From what I have heard of the Boy Scouts 50 years ago, I don't think it used to. I think due to societal pressures the BSA chose to affiliate themselves with those sort of organizations taht would be more prone to this type of "mind-rape" to begin with.
posted
Beverly, great response to AJ's question. I started typing one, but yours says everything I was going to, but much better.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote: But "thwap"? No. Children grow up. They become adults that think for themselves. Parents have to let go. You just can't continue to exert the same control over them that you did when they were 3. I know some parents do, and I don't agree with it.
I'm going to take this a slightly differently direction bev.
I would say, that the LDS I see here on hatrack, that I respect the most, that think for themselves have Exactly this problem with the LDS structure/culture attempting to control them like three year olds, even as they do their best to remain faithful followers.
posted
Are you asking if LDS would choose not to share their beliefs if given the opportunity? I think you are correct, they in most cases will. If a non-LDS boy chooses to attend an LDS troop, sharing of beliefs is probably going to happen.
I guess this would disturb some. But in my mind it is just LDS living their religion, and if it bothers someone, they are free to steer clear of those troops.
If the LDS troops are the only ones around? That does make it tough. Sorry, no easy answer there.
But it remains true that most troops "recruit" new scouts, and LDS troops do NOT. I just want to make sure that point is understood. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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And bev, I'm afraid there are Always going to be more immature people than mature people out there, which leaves me quite cynical at times, even though I'm generally an optimst.
quote: I would say, that the LDS I see here on hatrack, that I respect the most, that think for themselves have Exactly this problem with the LDS structure/culture attempting to control them like three year olds, even as they do their best to remain faithful followers.
To clarify, do you mean within families, or within the community? I think this sort of thing does happen, at least to some extent, especially in areas where there are lots of LDS.
Yeah, I am one who believes there are problems when "everyone" is LDS. People forget that there are other ways of looking at things. They don't learn to understand other mindsets, other points of view.
I am not sure to what extent this happens where LDS are not the majority. I spent most of my life living in places where LDS were few and far between, but I was younger then and didn't really think about it all that much. I would have to experience it for myself first-hand now.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hmmm, is it possible to be cynical and optomistic at the same time? I guess so. I think part of it is that you approach a situation cautiously, but when you are given reason to trust, you trust deeply. Just thinking aloud here. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: To clarify, do you mean within families, or within the community? I think this sort of thing does happen, at least to some extent, especially in areas where there are lots of LDS.
I think I mean both. My observations are only of the parts of their lives that people choose to share about themselves on Hatrack. I'd hazzard that more of the struggles are community/church oriented than necessarily family though I have observed both.
quote: If the LDS troops don't recruit, it does somewhat rebutt the prosyletizing concern, but it also re-inforces the insular monolithic culture concern.
We can't win, can we? Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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