LDS 'hell' is... different than the generallly understood concept.
There's actually two things considered 'hell'. One is temporary, one is not.
The first is the one as given as an example by Christ in the story of the Rich man and Lazarus (not the raised-from-the-dead Lazzy). Lazarus went to a place of paradise when he died, and the Wicked Rich Man went to a hell - this is the place the wicked go BEFORE the Resurrection occurs. The first Resurrection of the Just occured upon Christ's Resurrection. The next won't be completed until the Second Coming.This 'Spirit Prison' is pretty close to the idea of 'Purgatory', but not exactly the same thing.
The Wicked stay in there until the Second Coming, where even they are given a Resurrection in a degree of Glory. Lesser than the Just, but still pretty fantabulous.
HOWEVER...
The 'Big Bad Hell' that's permanent is a bit of a rarity. It's more commonly known as 'Outer Darkness', or 'Spiritual Death'. The only people consigned here are those with a 100% Knowledge of God's plan (not faith. KNOWLEDGE) and reject it outright. this is where Satan and his angels will go, as well as a very few others designated as Sons of Perdition.
LDS do not believe that not accepting the LDS Gospel means you will burn forever. In fact, those who live wonderful lives and live a pretty decent "Christian Values" will end up in a wonderful degree of Glory that is in the presence of Jesus Christ, with not much more responsiblity. It's basicaly the 'Orthodox' view of Heaven. It's not in the presence of Heavenly Father, but Jesus does preside there.
quote:Why can't someone with sin come before God? If that was his rule and we are bound by it, why create someone to "absorb" that sin and die - wouldn't it be less brutal to simply change the rule?
It's not as much a rule as it is... we couldn't take it. Being before God, knowing that he knows everything you did, and being in the presence of the Perfect Being who loves you, and did his best to allow you to choose the path that would lead to absolute happiness, and knowing that you didn't trust him - the shame would be unbearable, and a bit of a 'hell' in and of itself.
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posted
Ahhh. If you read mr_porteiro_head's and my joint landmark, the guy I taught on my mission (and then fell in love with) asked the very same question.
Well, to answer that question, (or set of questions) I had to turn to the Book of Mormon. Again, this is almost certainly only an LDS perspective not shared by those of other faiths.
The Book of Mormon explains to us that even God is bound by rules--that if He breaks them, He ceases to be God. There are long discussions about justice and mercy and the reason the atonement was necessary.
It would be a long and involved discussion indeed, but I think you questions can be answered according to LDS theology. I think other Christians would have to leave it at "Because that is just the way it is," or "Because God said so."
Now, seeing as I know you don't believe in a Divine Christ to begin with, you are going to have to take this all on the hypothetical.
Man. I feel like just assigning you Book of Mormon passages to read and then asking if you have any questions.
First of all, in order to believe in the need for a Divine Atonement, you have to believe in the Fall of Man. Without that belief, the atonement doesn't make sense.
It also helps to believe in a Pre-Earth Life where God presented His plan to His children and we decided of our own free will to come to earth. The Atonement was planned from the beginning and Christ chosen to fulfill that role.
So first read 2nd Nephi Chapter 2 It lays down some very key points of doctrine.
An exerpt that talks about the natural, or fallen, state of man.
quote: # Mosiah 3: 19
19 For the natural• man is an enemy• to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields• to the enticings of the Holy Spirit•, and putteth• off the natural• man and becometh a saint• through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child•, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.
An exerpt from Alma 34
quote: 9 For it is expedient that an atonement• should be made; for according to the great plan• of the Eternal God there must be an atonement made, or else all mankind must unavoidably perish; yea, all are hardened; yea, all are fallen and are lost, and must perish except it be through the atonement which it is expedient should be made.
10 For it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice•; yea, not a sacrifice of man, neither of beast, neither of any manner of fowl; for it shall not be a human sacrifice; but it must be ancinfinite• and eternal• sacrifice.
11 Now there is not any man that can sacrifice his own blood which will atone for the sins of another. Now, if a man murdereth, behold will our law, which is just•, take the life of his brother? I say unto you, Nay.
12 But the law requireth the life of him who hath murdered; therefore there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world.
13 Therefore, it is expedient that there should be a great and last sacrifice, and then shall there be, or it is expedient there should be, a stop• to the shedding of blood; then shall the law• of Moses be fulfilled; yea, it shall be all fulfilled, every jot and tittle, and none shall have passed away.
14 And behold, this is the whole meaning• of the law, every whit pointing to that great and last sacrifice•; and that great and last sacrifice• will be the Son of God, yea, infinite• and eternal.
15 And thus he shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on his name; this being the intent of this last sacrifice, to bring about the bowels of mercy, which overpowereth justice, and bringeth about means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance.
16 And thus mercy can satisfy the demands of justice, and encircles them in the arms of safety, while he that exercises no faith unto repentance is exposed to the whole law of the demands of justice•; therefore only unto him that has faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal plan of redemption.
quote: # Alma 42: 24
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also amercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
quote: # Alma 42: 25
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
Well, there is much more, but that should at least kick off a discussion.
In review,
First: Man is in a natural and fallen state, by nature he sins, by nature he is an enemy to God and cannot return to His presence. In such a state, the eternal soul of man is doomed to fall under the influence and power of Satan for all eternity. We have to take this as a given, for it is not explained much further than this.
Second: God must follow the natural laws of the universe, he can't just redeem someone. He can't "rob justice".
Third: God knew all these things from the beginning. He knew man would fall, he prepared the way for man's redemption before the world was created and explained this plan to all of us before we were born.
A Savior would be chosen, our eldest spirit brother, Christ, son of our Heavenly Father. He would come to earth and be an example for us to follow. He alone would not succumb to the natural man and sin, though he would be half mortal and subject himself to mortal temptations and sufferings. He would teach, show what we should do, establish His doctrine and church, teach us about our Father in Heaven.
Then He would suffer for our sins. This was not a physical suffering, but a spiritual one. One that we cannot comprehend. It began in the garden of Gethsemane and likely continued until his last breath. It was far more awful than the physical sufferings he bore. He paid a price that cannot be comprehended so that he could say:
quote: Doctrine and Covenants Section 45
3 Listen to him who is the advocate• with the Father, who is pleading your cause before him—
4 Saying: Father, behold the sufferings and death of him who did no sin•, in whom thou wast well pleased; behold the blood of thy Son which was shed, the blood of him whom thou gavest that thyself might be glorified•;
5 Wherefore, Father, spare these my brethren• that believe• on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting• life.
posted
This thread (not to mention ^ some posts) is super long. Would it be frowned-upon to respond to fragmented bits and pieces without digesting the whole sacred cow?
quote: It's not as much a rule as it is... we couldn't take it. Being before God, knowing that he knows everything you did, and being in the presence of the Perfect Being who loves you, and did his best to allow you to choose the path that would lead to absolute happiness, and knowing that you didn't trust him - the shame would be unbearable, and a bit of a 'hell' in and of itself.
Yeah. I am thinking there is a scripture that refers to this.... I am trying to think where it is....
Well, here is one:
quote: 14 For our words• will condemn us, yea, all our works will condemn us; we shall not be found spotless; and our thoughts will also condemn us; and in this awful state we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and the mountains• to fall upon us to hide• us from his presence.
15 But this cannot be; we must come forth and stand before him in his glory, and in his power, and in his might, majesty, and dominion, and acknowledge to our everlasting shame• that all his judgments• are just; that he is just in all his works, and that he is merciful unto the children of men, and that he has all power to save every man that believeth on his name and bringeth forth fruit meet for repentance.
This isn't because God made things this way, it's just the way things *are*.
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posted
So if non LDS aren't so bad off, then what exactly does does the subtitle of God's Army mean? God's Army Saving the World One Soul at a Time. What are we being saved from?
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umm... what is a godhead? I've never really understood this term. Kinda makes me giggle (Freudian). Is it like a figurehead? Like a carved icon face-forward-into-the-wind sort of shipwise adornment?
posted
Well Talc, I'll grant I don't agree with the "shame would be too much to bear" idea, but it does set up the rest in context.
Beav - I have to admit, I expected "because God wills it" statement much sooner in this discussion.
And I will concede if I believed any of the preceeding statements, the rest would make sense.
Unfortunately, I don't - so the subsequent issues fall apart for me as well.
But I have to admit, it's one of the more concise answers I've ever gotten.
-Trevor Edit: They are saving us from the not so bad Hell. Edit 2: Bev - I find it difficult to accept that an all-powerful, all-knowing God is bound by "the way things are." Either He is the creator of all things or he isn't.
But, as I understand LDS mythology - God isn't an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, which means His limitations are plausible.
posted
Ooo, *excellent* question, Theca. There is this little matter of no one being able to be saved in ignorance. The idea is that before your final judgement you must have had the opportunity to accept Christ and His gospel, either in this life or the next. The second idea is, the sooner the better.
Fallow, as I understand it, the Godhead (at least in LDS theology) is like a "council of Gods". We do indeed believe in three separate entities, but that they are so united in purpose that it usually doesn't matter which one you are referring to. They are all equally and in their own right GOD. They are as "one" as three separate entities can be. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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quote: Bev - I find it difficult to accept that an all-powerful, all-knowing God is bound by "the way things are." Either He is the creator of all things or he isn't.
But, as I understand LDS mythology - God isn't an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, which means His limitations are plausible.
Yeah, many really balk at this idea. Basically, we believe God is all-powerful in the sense that if there is any power to be had, He's got it all, man. Ain't no one more all-powerful than He. And yet He remains bound--by choice, I might add--to certain eternal laws.
Edit: The funny thing is, while many people are profoundly disturbed by this idea, I find it quite comforting. It helps also knowing that God is truly all-knowing and loves us all in addition to the all-powerful bit.
Reminds me of many of the questions my 5-year-old son asks. Because that is the way it is?
No, I do believe there is more to it than that. First of all, you've got Father in Heaven. You've then got the need for a Savior in the plan, ergo Christ. Now, God seems to really like the idea of having 2 or more witnesses of any truth, so then you have the Holy Ghost, a personage of Spirit whose job it is (among other things) to testify of Christ, the Father, and all truth.
Could there be more than three? Perhaps. Less than three? No. So three is the minimum, and perhaps God likes to be efficient.
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posted
Well, you have to take into account the firmly held belief that our Father in Heaven has a female counterpart, that He is married. We believe that Christ either is or will be also. Marriage is pretty central to LDS theology. We believe no man or woman is complete without it, including God.
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posted
As much as I hate the answer, "just because" will actually carry a lot of ground because of the complexity of trying to understand "God, creater of all things" - no matter how you interpret him.
That being said, I will never swear faith to a belief system that rationalizes "just because" - but I will accept that empirical proof and definite answers are both in short supply.
The idea that human evolution was nothing more than an alien's practical joke is as plausible as the LDS teaching or the Catholic church's theology.
Pretty cool, eh? Makes your mind kind of bend a little, but you can almost comprehend it.
Now think about something having no BEGINNING. Think about it hard.
Give you a headache? Seem impossible? It's incomprehensible.
As much as we know and believe that the Earth had a beginning, before that, the idea of Eternity stretching into BOTH directions is enough to give you a migraine.
Whether you think of it from a science OR a theological viewpoint - both will leave you reeling. Some things ARE just incomprehensible to the human mind. We're infinite beings living in a finite body. there ARE limits to our current understanding.
We believe we have all the info we NEED to know, but not all there IS to know. We can't recieve that until we've been trialed through this life, and recieve exalted eternal spiritual bodies.
As of right now, I'm content with not being omnicient. I'll leave that to God for the time being!
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posted
In some ways, material existence, or life in Ea, can be thought of as being in the matrix, and heaven, or the celestial realm can be thought of as our real life. Time is only in effect in the matrix. Real life is in a universe in which time is not part of the laws of physics. That's the sense in which we are all eternal.
Edit to say this is my own theological speculation, based on LDS theology, and not any sort of doctrine of any religion ever known, as far as I can tell.
[ July 19, 2004, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: ak ]
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Heavenly Mother is present. She is just... not as vocal.
quote: But, as I understand LDS mythology - God isn't an all-powerful, all-knowing entity, which means His limitations are plausible.
Thanks for using the phrase "as I understand it." God is all-powerful and all-knowing in LDS doctrine. Just because we say he "can't" break his rules, doesn't mean he isn't capable. He just knows that the consequences would not be worth the benefit. Before the Earth was created, in the Council of Heaven, a Plan of Salvation was presented to us. Christ - Jehovah - presented God's plan. This included a need for man to be tried and tested, be tempted and hopefully overcome sin. Because he knew we would not be able to always overcome sin, he, being our Eldest Brother, offered to sacrifice himself... to come down with an understanding of his role and to BE perfect and sin free, so that he could then atone for us. Satan - Lucifer - suggested that we all just be perfect... by force. Then we wouldn't need a sacrifice and no one would go to "hell." He also wanted God's Glory for accomplishing this. Often, we dote on the concept that this was bad just because he wanted God's Glory, but this isn't completely rational. God knew the same thing parents know on Earth. Kids have to learn things the hard way, or they just won't learn. He sticks to his laws because he created them. There is no need for him to break them. One day we will all understand this, either in this life or the next. The sooner the better, so we can help others to understand as well. (forgive me if I am not completely clear. Geoff, Taalcon and Beverly are mch more eloquent than I.)
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The main idea is the protecting of Her sanctity. The name of God is profaned. There is also the open ended idea that Heavenly Father may be a polygamist God. Polygamy is, after all, still accepted in LDS doctrine as a true principle if not practiced currently.
The idea is that there is eternal marriage, that it is the highest state of existance for men and women. That marriage can have an open-ended number of women in it, but one man--that this is the eternal pattern, the way "things are".
So as for a Mother in Heaven or Mothers, I prefer to think of Her or Them as being included together with the Father, even more united than the classic trinity, the idea of the Godhead.
But truly, this is not something that is often discussed and little is explicit in LDS theology on the subject.
Edit: Sorry, my answers come so slowly with how long I take to formulate my responses.
posted
I'm pretty sure that the Holy Ghost is male. Also, he is a spirit, no physical body like Father and Mother in Heaven. Not likely to be the same entity.
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quote: ok. why isn't the "marriage" of god, or the feminine presence explicit?
I would echo Taalcon in a fashion on this. This may be my own doctrine too, but.. here goes. The feminine presence was once explicit. At some point in time, I believe, God commanded his prophets, seers, and revelators to not refer to her further, because people cursing in his name was bad enough. I look at it from a personal view. My father never permitted us to curse or talk down to my mother. Our Heavenly Father has done the same thing. His church has never denied that there is a Heavenly Mother. (this is on the assumption that the LDS church is His church.) It's stated quite clearly in our Hymnal. I don't believe God's church has ever denied the feminine presence. I believe that Christ felt very highly of women by his relationships expressed in the New Testament. And, ancient paganism... goddess worship... etc, likely spawned from those who were part of God's church in ancient times... or descendants of such faith that were isolated from revelation and confirmation from God's ordained prophets.
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posted
Faith IS a very important principal. It's been even said that Faith was one of the 'tools' used in the Creation of the World itself.
Plus, Miracles are said only to manifest themselves AFTER the trial of Faith.
I can only say, as a convert myself who initially gawked at this, that it has manifested its truth to me. It can be...very personal. But also undeniable.
This is true for non LDS as well - we don't have the monopoly on Faith Miracles.
As much as 'Healing (spiritual and physical) By Faith' is a gift of the Spirit, 'Faith to Be Healed' is an equally important gift.
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