posted
Fallow, you appear to be maligning LDS beliefs much more than she's maligning Science!
All she's saying is that as much as science CAN tell us, it doesn't give us all the answers, and in some cases can be very confusing. That's...the facts, plain and simple.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Why no feminine presence? That's kind of the stickler for me.
Short answer: The power to rule is in the priesthood, and only men have the priesthood.
Attempt to feel good about short answer: You can only receive the complete priesthood in eternal marriage--so the wife has a role.
I was always bothered by the no women thing. The first answer I heard was because God knew how people would disrespect Heavenly Mother, and He wanted to protect Her. Another answer I heard is that God is a polygamist and there would be too many Heavenly Mothers. The catch all answer is because God is a God of order, and that (no Mom's discussed) is the Heavenly Order.
quote: The idea is that before your final judgment you must have had the opportunity to accept Christ and His gospel, either in this life or the next.
In this life you have to have faith to accept Christ, in the next life...well, I think some of the faith issues will be resolved.
I think that if everyone has to have the opportunity to accept Christ, then it seems fair that everyone should have to have the same degree of opportunity. If a missionary comes to my door and I say "no," does that mean I missed my opportunity? Would that person get the same opportunity as an oriental person who dies without ever seeing a missionary in this life?
I don’t think any of us can truly accept Christ until we know "without a shadow of doubt" he exists. We can accept a "hope in Christ," our belief in Christ, or some other faith based testimony, but until we know there is an after-life, those is all just feelings. Feelings can change in a way reality cannot.
My point is that, as a Mormon, I do not think missionary work in this life is the higher spiritual attempt to give people a "chance" or "opportunity" to accept the Savior. This desperate need to convert others has often felt to me like some form of sick insecurity.
Wow..how did I get on that rant? I did serve a mission and hope it is true. If my parents were never baptized, I would be in much worse circumstances in my life. Recently I have feelt members/missionaries go beyond the showing a beautiful thing to a desperate, and often annoying, attempt to fix other peoples lives.
Edit:
Darn, Bev beat me to it, but she did not have the slight sarcastic tone I carried. Well said.
"denied" is one thing. standard is another, and celebratory is yet another.
why does the feminine (even if "acknowledged") in proto-forms of religion now occupy (apparently) somethingly slightly above that of explicit "denial"?
quote: Everything holds true _if_ we accept these basic premises. If we accept this interpretation, this makes sense.
That's where faith, prayer and repentance come into play. The nice thing about LDS doctrine is that it does hold true to itself. Always. I've never seen a valid circumstance that contradicts my claim. Yet, one has to come to accept the basic premises first. Many times on this thread, I have read posts explaining how to come to accept these premises. As much as the topics in this thread can be debated, there is only one way to KNOW if they are true. a) You have to first come to believe that God exists. b) Then, being sincere in your quest for knowledge, you must do your research. c) Pray to God (in Christ's name) for confirmation that what you have researched is true, or knowledge in the lack of any answer. d) Have faith that God will answer your prayer.
If you do this, you will receive an answer, you will know.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Alexa, I share your ponderings on the subject of missionary work. I trust that it is important, but I also believe I don't fully understand why. I do believe what I said earlier is true though.
I have also thought about this in relation to work for the dead. Doctrine shows us that there is urgency involved. I wonder why? I pondered that one for a long time.
I prayed about it. I had one of those experiences where my mind opened up to new ideas that I hadn't considered before, and to be honest with you, now I can't remember what those ideas where.
It is as though God were saying, "Yes, it *is* important, and here is part of why, but this is not common knowledge and you are not going to remember this. You will only remember that you once understood."
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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And I hoped the answer was 'The Mormons are silly goons and don't know what they're talking about'. If anything, I didn't WANT it to be true, because then my life would have to change.
Turns out they were right. Took me a year after recognizing that answer (repeatedly) to be Baptized.
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quote:I have also thought about this in relation to work for the dead. Doctrine shows us that there is urgency involved. I wonder why?
I tend to think the folks on the other side of the Veil who have ACCEPTED the gospel are pretty anxious for their ordinances to be performed.
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posted
That's definitely part of it, but I knew that already. I wanted more than just "they really really want it". I got my answer, but doggoneit, I can't remember it.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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The only thing I malign is taste and civil discourse. *mumbles incoherent and mildly sinister inventivectives vs. taalcon and it's offspring unto the -10th generation*
quote: why does the feminine (even if "acknowledged") in proto-forms of religion now occupy (apparently) somethingly slightly above that of explicit "denial"?
That's a sad development in religion. I don't believe it has a place in God's church. It doesn't in LDS doctrine.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote: the Atonement occurred in the Garden of Gethsemane, where all the sins of the world were taken upon by Christ - a person who has never sinned
Really? Then why did he choose to spend 40 days and 40 nights atoning in the desert fro his actions against the moneylenders in the temple?
If he thought it was a sin, I'll take his word for it.
TMedina: God did let us know...that is what the church is for, to let us know what our obligations are to one another and to him.
If a child refuses to listen to a parent when they give instruction, the child must bear the responsibility for the choice sooner or later.
If your parents payed all your bills without question for your whole life, how responsible would you be? But if you have to pay for it yourself, suddenly things have value and worth because they weren't free.
If there were no moral consequences to our actions, how would we grow? God could take away all our choices and make life easy, but only when things are difficult do we really appreciate them...because we had "payed" for them they have worth beyond what we would see otherwise.
posted
And now it's time for bed. This particular council smacked me in the face today:
D&C 88:124 Cease to be idle; cease to be unclean; cease to find fault one with another; cease to sleep longer than is needful; retire to thy bed early, that ye may not be weary; arise early, that your bodies and your minds may be invigorated.
quote:Then why did he choose to spend 40 days and 40 nights atoning in the desert fro his actions against the moneylenders in the temple?
Have to reply to this though... that wasn't a sin, and that wasn't atonement. It was fasting and preparation for the work he knew he had to do. Righteous anger isn't a sin Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote: what's your point? This is a basis for trash-talking?
Wow, I've seen people get sensitive when someone mocks their religious beliefs (I do) but I didn't expect someone to get upset if I mocked science!
What I am mocking is human limitation. Humans on their own cannot come to a full knowledge of truth. They can only make educated guesses. And time and time again, those educated guesses have to be revised or replaced completely.
So many mock those of us who believe in God, but I rather like the idea of an all-knowing being revealing truth to the mind ready to receive it. Not that He doesn't like us exploring the world and learning as much as we can on our own, but I don't think He likes it when we think we know more than He does and take His counsel lightly.
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I believe Protestants think Catholics have it wrong because Catholics believe Mary can act as an intercessor between them and God. Protestants dont think Mary has this power. I think they also dislike large showy cathedrals. I dont know why Catholics beleive Protestants have it wrong.
I am not Catholic or Protestant so if I am wrong, someone please correct me.
Posts: 473 | Registered: Sep 2001
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quote: Really? Then why did he choose to spend 40 days and 40 nights atoning in the desert fro his actions against the moneylenders in the temple?
Whoa. That is an interpretation of that scripture that I have never heard before! Well, there are plenty of references in LDS scripture to the sinless state of Christ His entire life, and that if He weren't sinless, He couldn't have atoned for the sins of the world. So that's just the LDS take on it for ya.
posted
First Bev - I was not knocking your faith. I posed questions and you supplied answers. I don't believe in your answers, but that was more or less the expected outcome.
Had I been knocking your faith, the whole "hostile vibe" thing would have been unmistakeable. And probably a personal insult thrown in to the mix for variety.
As to the other, Science can be replicated and duplicated. Have we explaind everything yet? No. Do we think we have to the best of our current understanding? Maybe. And to be fair, a great deal of Science is speculation. Not all, but still quite a bit is.
At one point, my mother told me about a mathematical formula in her high school text book that "proved" man could never go to the moon. And various conspiracy theories notwithstanding, we have.
If anything, Science confirms the idea that Man and therefore his understanding is Imperfect.
Although I will concede the most controversial of scientific theory still remains that - theory.
posted
Here is an interesting thought about the limitations of science. Repeatablity is very, very important in establishing theory. But there is so much complexity in our universe, so many things that we just aren't even capable or measuring. I'm not sure we ever will be capable. Trends in social groups, the tiny patterns in chaos that we may never see.
Just an interesting side note, science did discover a way to find out if a newborn's brain can register sound. If they record the baby's brainwaves over a long period of time and average them together, the tiny, tiny changes made in those waves by reference to a specific, introduced sound can be detected. Brilliant strategy! But there are many, many things that will not submit so easily to the questing eye of science.
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posted
we always need some sort of nonsense. even if what we perceive as nonsense really has some meaning to it.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
fallow, you wouldn't by any chance happen to be a fan of "They Might Be Giants"? I love their lyrics, so chaotic, hinting at things that I may never understand, but feel I nearly grasp at. Puns, twisted cliche sayings, seemingly random cleverness. You could write some lyrics that would give them a run for their money. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Pity, I really enjoy them. I was listening to them quite a lot on our recent road trip and I thought of you.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Faith is a personal issue. Either you have it or you don't, for various reasons.
I think that's the joy of religion.
Fortunately, we can have faith that those that don't will someday gain it.
Also, faith is something, as stated in the Book of Mormon, that is a blessing. Sometimes, you have to ask God for faith to believe in Him. He has been known to answer such prayers. But, like all blessings, some people have it in large quantities and some have to work hard to earn it. I respect those that work hard to earn it more sometimes than those that just have it in abundance without effort.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Well.. I don't know that waxing philosophical on the meaning of joy is really all that necessary. In my understanding, Joy is never a negative thing. But then, I don't believe that Stalin was able to provide Joy to the masses. This is way off topic though. Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Fallows - if you'd care to define Faith, knock yourself out. As defined by www.webster.com:
quote: firm belief in something for which there is no proof
And the absence of proof does not disprove the belief. How does one come to embrace a firm belief in something that lacks proof? I can give you plenty of different answers from the polite to the flattering, even to the offensive.
But the one concept everyone claiming to have Faith shares - it's a personal experience that transcends words. You just "know" - for lack of a more accurate description.
Does that make any kind of sense to me, personally? Not really. But I've already established that I "don't get it."
Bev - snicker. I re-typed this answer three times and finally opted for - fair enough.
posted
At least the way "joy" is used in LDS terminology, there is a significant difference between "joy" and "bliss". In the word "joy" are the connotations "lasting" and "coming out of sorrow". There is the idea that it is *impossible* to know joy without knowing sorrow, and that that is why the Fall of Man was so essential to man's growth and progression.
Therefore, it would be inaccurate to relate the word to "opiate".
posted
Try this definition of faith. If websters leaves you reeling.. Alma's is deep. Alma 32:21
quote: And now as I said concerning faith—faith• is not to have a perfect knowledge of things; therefore if ye have faith ye hope for things which are not• seen, which are true.
Small favor. Stop breathing the hot breath of pointed religious dissent/disfavor/disfruitfulflavor'o'theweek into my posts and take an anti-feverish-defensive breath mint in composing yours. PLEASE!
*wishes he had a hot-tub to soak in*
*wishes he had a hot-tub to soak in and recruit harem candies (candidates) with*
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