Anti-abortion: By stating this position, it is assumed you think abortion is wrong and should not be available to anyone.
The assumption may or may not be correct, but the assumption is there.
The Anti-abortion, pro-lifers tend to be lumped together, regardless of whether or not they share the same views on two different issues:
Is abortion wrong
Should you have the ability to choose to have an abortion if you so desire
For myself, I believe:
2: You should have the legal right to make a choice as to whether or not you want to have an abortion.
1: I don't know. Right and wrong is often highly subjective and a matter of personal perspective. But I am unwilling to force my moral perspective on anyone else because I think my moral outlook is right.
Which ends up forcing me to side with the pro-choice camp simply because that's exactly what the pro-lifers are doing.
-Trevor
P.S. Of course, the chain of logic that led me to this particular belief structure is by no means a universal standard applied to all such decisions.
Posts: 5413 | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
It's amazing how much people read into a monochrome t-shirt with a simple declarative. I was just thinking that some people might consider it a cry for help. You had an abortion? You poor thing. Maybe it could be seen as a statement of anger. I had an abortion and boy am I pissed!
I happen to agree that the purpose of the t-shirt is to take abortion out of the realm of shame. Obviously, this is going to make pro-life people angry, who want to keep it there because doing so supports the idea that it should be illegal. Obviously, then, it's probably a good idea for pro-choice people to wear it.
I do not think anyone has to really worry about this t-shirt as I doubt it will ever be worn. I think anyone with two brain cells knows that if they wore this t-shirt, they would literally be spat upon. At the very least harangued. Does anyone doubt this?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged |
I can understand your comment about the medium, but t-shirts are often worn with political or social slogans to denote a stance or position.
Sometimes they are amusing, sometimes not.
While turning people into walking billboards is not necessarily a masterful tactic and not one I think will succeed, given my commentary earlier, it does bring the message home in no uncertain terms.
Certainly moreso than the broad strokes both sides tend to paint with.
And I'm not sure that a t-shirt is any more or less offensive than the pro-life bumper stickers I see. I'm surprised the PL people don't have t-shirts available - they seem to have used every other marketing ploy.
posted
People here seem to do a better job of discussing abortion than the public at large does - or at least the parts of the public with operating budgets and communication directors.
Would anyone here be really surprised that the emotions of women who have had abortions run the full gamut of possiblities? Women who are comfortable (even a small number might say "happy"), women who regret it, and others who just accept it without wanting to label their emotions.
Advocates for prochoice organizations don't like to talk about those women who come to look on their abortions with regret. Prolife organizations don't really like talking about all the women who are comfortable with the decision they made.
Does anyone know if there are any non-ideologically influenced stats on this, by any chance? Any credible studies on followup - emotional, etc. ?
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had never seen "anti-choice" before this thread. I guess I was just very not surprised that the term existed. I agree that it's a battle of words, but using terms this way does have a subtle effect on how you think. It does reduce things to a very bitter political standoff, that is true.
I am strongly opposed to abortion, but I don't put myself in the "pro-life" camp and I am certainly not "anti-choice." I suppose it's as irritating a term for me as "pro-life" is to pro-choice activists.
Edit: Hatrack moves way too dang fast anymore.
[ July 27, 2004, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged |
posted
I seriously doubt that more than one in a thousand would be spat upon, but I do think that it provoke many of the same reactions as here.
The privacy issue is interesting. Even if I supported being proud of having an abortion, wearing a t-shirt proclaiming it is tacky. It's proclaiming very personal details of your life. I don't see it as the same thing as a college t-shirt, but going to college is taking from and part of a community. It's like wearing a t-shirt with slogans like "My husband and I had sex last night." or "I've been Saved."
Yes, I know there are t-shirts like that. I think those are pretty tacky too. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm sure they do, Trevor I live in the middle of Conservative America and I'm exposed to plenty of t-shirt level politics.
As open-minded as I try to be, it does affect my perceptions. If I run into someone dressed business casual who wants to talk politics, I'm a lot more likely to give their ideas credibility than someone who walks in with an American flag t-shirt and a belt buckle that says "Rush is right."
My point is that there are certain issues that deserve a civilized level of discourse and there are always those who will cheapen them by propaganidizing them. I am just as angry about right-wing political propaganda being disbursed by the t-shirt demographic as I am about this. For me it's a matter of a lack of respect for a very sensitive issue.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
And large groups command more resources than small groups, so fine distinctions are often lost in the shuffle. Just look at the American political system.
Sndrake - basically, that's it. Both sides are drawing on specific examples and using them to paint the whole canvas. It serves neither purpose to realize that some women do and some women don't regret their choices.
posted
CT the problem is that here in the US the headscarves normally put you more vividly into memory. (I know you've talked about why you like them before, and that is the bit that has always struck me as incongruous.)
posted
I do have a t-shirt from RuthAnn's General Store that I wear with pride. Never had any comments, though. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
I wear a wide array of propaganda on my chest. I have no shame in flaunting shiny letters proclaiming "I Love Nerds." I design t-shirts. I intend to someday make a large-scale business of selling silly slogans.
I do, however, use them all as an expression of the flippant aspect of my sense of humor. Perhaps that's why I'm so sensitive to the medium being taken seriously.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
| IP: Logged |
Kat, the difference is intent. A common misconcetion is that most women would choose differently upon being given "it all to do over again" and spend the rest of their lives in depression and regret. Especially now that Roe herself has said that she now opposes the decision.
However, I still don't think this was the way to go about changing that misconception and the shirts make me very uncomfortable. Yet, then again, so did the "Abortion stops a beating heart" ads.
Like CT, I think some more reflection is needed.
Posts: 1777 | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
The abortion stops a beating heart ad was, I think, the most effective one I've seen. It's the same reason I wore the feet in college, and probably why those two ads generated more anger from die-hard pro-choice activists than any of the much more offensive pictures of aborted fetuses ever did.
Both the feet and the heart ads show an element of what pro-lifers consider the most important aspect of the debate. Both are true, and neither presents a legal conclusion - it's a presentation of facts for the viewer to integrate into their own opinion.
posted
I dunno Annie - I didn't recognize the email address, so I would have normally deleted it.
But the address in question was a military one, so I didn't think it was going to be bit of cleverly disguised spam.
-Trevor
Edit: I don't wear slogans on my shirts because I dislike the notion of providing free advertising to things I don't use or believe in. Hence I abhor the whole "Nike logo as fashion" trend.
I have, on occasion, worn something snarky - but I don't even like the Izod gator, not that I can afford to or actually spend the money on Izod. I still find it tacky.
posted
And Dag raises an excellent point - the anti-abortion ad he mentions carried an emotional message designed to stir emotions and not legal or analytical debate.
And it is very effective to the specific target audience.
Does it qualify as an effective debate tactic? No. But it does help the propel organization closer to its stated goals.
posted
If CT's zit theory is true nobody from Jr. High through High School actually knows what I look like. Should make high school reunions interesting. Hmm... maybe they still don't know what I look like.
Anyway, I don't mind wearing brands for things I like supporting. Like my brother's company. Oh who am I kidding, as long as it's clean and in my closet I'll probably wear it.
But I do get annoyed with girls who wear shirts with writing on them who glare at you when your eye gets drawn to it. Unless there's a only other women are allowed to read a girl's shirt rule that I'm not aware of.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
My technique is to wear buisness casual (button-up type of) shirts tucked into Kahkis, then when you come dressed like a normal person (this is for college) no one recognizes you, but if you go back to your old style people do, so you can choose what you want.
quote:Does it qualify as an effective debate tactic? No. But it does help the propel organization closer to its stated goals.
I also think the ads are more effective at what should be the true goal of the movement, which is to reduce the number of abortions period. Making abortion illegal is one of many possible strategies to attain this goal, and I'm not shy about supporting it.
But the most effective way to get people to not engage in a behavior is to make them not want to engage in that behavior. Nobody has a realistic shot at getting somebody to change their mind about whether abortion should be illegal in their everyday interactions. But they do have a shot at putting information into that person's brain that might be used in the decision-making process if that person ever has to decide to obtain an abortion or is advising someone about such a decision.
This is why honesty is SOOOO critical. As soon as you lose credibility, all the information you've presented is discounted, even the true stuff.
Well, you've only seen the one. Diane and I reluctantly decided against going to a reception for Barack Obama - who still doesn't have a Republican opponent here in the Illinois Senate race.
I would have worn that shirt to the event if we'd gone.
PS - your scarf strategy only works with people who actually remember what people wear - I don't usually, unless there's lettering involved.
posted
*currently wearing a t-shirt with "The Itchy and Scratchy Show" on it *
*squick* Can I still say that without very vile imagery coming to mind?
Abortion as birth control bothers me. It's wasteful of life and medical resources. I consider myself morally pro-life and politically pro-choice, and all I can say is that that shirt makes me extremely uncomfortable.
I can imagine circumstances where I would have an abortion and feel I did the right thing, but then I'm fairly imaginative. I used to think I wouldn't do it save my own life, but now I have children and a husband who depend on me... In any case I hope I never have to make that choice.
However, selective abortion (I want a boy, not a girl) or abortion for the sake of convenience (gee, now isn't the best time, and I don't want to go through all that and tthen give the baby up for adoption) just make me profoundly sad.
I think women should be able to make that choice, but I would like to believe that it would be a difficult decision to make for most people. Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Does no one else find the very name "Planned Parenthood" disingenuous? That is, for those of you who understand that their main purpose is to terminate unplanned pregnancies? I don't get the impression that PSI understood their mission when she went there. Correct me if I'm wrong.
P.S. I also object to gun marketers waving around "second amendment rights", just to clarify.
posted
The Planned Parenthood office closest to the town where I live doesn’t even do abortions. It is, however, a place where women who’ve been sexually assaulted can get confidential exams and treatment for STDs with payment for those services based on income level.
So I have a real problem with statements like “Planned Parenthood is evil” and “their main purpose is to terminate unplanned pregnancies.”
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
| IP: Logged |
I don't know. I edited some training materials for Planned Parenthood a few years ago. Maybe things have changed. I don't remember much specific.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
CT representin for me out here. I'm more pro-life than I am pro-choice, but I have nothing but the highest regard for Planned Parenthood -- it helps a stunning number of my friends use birth control when they otherwise wouldn't (thank you, Catholic Church) and get tested for diseases when they otherwise couldn't. This isn't even going into the rape/trauma counselling aspects they offer.
Yeah. I tend to write off people who declare the organization "evil" as abject idiots.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Is there a negative stigma associated with giving up one's child for adoption? I wonder what the reactions would be for a T-shirt that says, "I gave up my child for adoption," or something of the sort.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
Will you ever be capable of handing an argument from me without jumping straight to the lie YOU HATE BUSH HATE YOU THINK HE'S EVIL YOU HATE AND FEAR HIM CUZ YOU THINK HE'S EVIL?
I mean, seriously, dude. Learn a new line or something.
Posts: 3293 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lalo, I think he meant the eye rolling at the Catholic church. Though I certainly realize that one doesn't have to think an organization is evil to find some of its policies puzzling.
I do know that Planned Parenthood makes a lot more money from BCPs than abortions.
I hope that the "evil" argument is one of those artifacts that sometimes pops up in a debate. I know I didn't say it, though I did say the other thing about "main purpose".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think that it is more important to lift the negative stigma from mothers who choose to let their child live and give it up for adoption than to lift the negative stigma from women who choose to abort.
Though I do not support jumping to judgemental conclusions in any way, shape, or form. But I do not see how this T-shirt will help with that. I think it would make the problem worse before making it better.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think before we go about lifting the stigma, the stigma needs to be borne equally by the "fathers".
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
There is an unfortunate stigma to a woman who is pregnant and unable to care for herself, be she unmarried or married but already encumbered with two children.
Posts: 11017 | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
If a woman gives up her child for adoption, there are those who will look upon her as "not loving her child enough to keep it." Certainly many children who discover they are adopted go through a phase of feeling that, at least on a visceral level.
Edit: Because this issue isn't nearly as controversial, it doesn't get nearly as much press as abortion. As for abortion having a stigma, many feel that the woman who had an abortion did something wrong. From my perception, many look upon a woman who gave up her child for adoption as doing something wrong also.
There is a line of LDS commercials that put forth the phrase, "I didn't give my child up, I have her(him) more." Or something to that effect. The idea is to get people thinking about the idea that giving your child up for adoption does not imply lesser love, but perhaps an even greater love.
Printer-friendly view of this topic
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I was just thinking that some people might consider it a cry for help. You had an abortion? You poor thing. Maybe it could be seen as a statement of anger. I had an abortion and boy am I pissed!![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Angst]](graemlins/angst.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
ssywak.
