posted
CT, I didn't take it that way. I was all laughing over the "They Fight Crime!" thing.
Ron used to call me the "Fiery Volcano Goddess" before having babies mellowed me a bit. Thus, for years my breasts were referred to as Vesuvius and Pinatubo (sp?)
Um, ON TOPIC-- I think you shouldn't blame the organization for the unbalanced actions of some of its members. Some PP workers may be all about the abortions, but I certainly HOPE it isn't policy to ask some of the questions PSI got hit with.
That said, they really pissed me off when I got a mailer from them shortly after 9/11 that referred to pro-life protesters as "Terrorists." That seemed unnecessarily inflamatory to me, what with the country's new perspective on 'terrorism'.
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Beverly, where have you seen that stigma that giving a child up for adoption means less love? I've seriously never seen or heard of it before. Not in my own culture, and not in the culture of other that I've been exposed to.
If I saw a woman with a "I gave my child up for adoption" t-shirt, my first reponse would be to hug her, and then wonder why on earth she's announcing that to the world. I don't think it's a fight that needs to be fought.
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Kat, I could be completely off my rocker. It is not that I have tons of evidence, just little things here and there.
Just as many families of women who have abortions are upset with them, I have heard of many families who strongly oppose their daughters(or other family memebers) giving up their baby. It seems as though they are less willing to consider it than the mother for whom it is so painful.
Edit: Negative stigma from one's own family is among the most painful.
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I remember discussing the stigma thing with my father in law. He couldn't imagine someone giving up a baby for adoption, despite the church policy encouraging that (when the parents can't marry).
Did you know there is 2 an average of 2 unwed pregnancies per ward (LDS congregation) per year? We had a presentation from LDS adoption services about it. A vast majority are kept by the single mom and/or her parents. Very few of these ever get the hoped for family unit. (And these policies do presume that an ideal family unit has a mother and father).
P.S. I think a lot of it is a generational gap, and also the actual age the older generation is, they have baby hunger and you know that old joke about grandchildren being better than having kids of your own.
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Pooka, out of curiosity, what are some ways you feel we can put the responsibility more on the shoulders of the man? In my mind, that is difficult to do equally because so much of childbearing happens to the mother's body. It is easy for the man to escape notice if he so desires.
Do you feel that society in general should be more persistant in seeking the fathers out and requiring responsibility of them?
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I would say (from my limited perspective) that any stigma associated with giving a child up for adoption stems from a sense of not being "able" to care for one's own child. The cases I know of where girls felt pressured to keep a baby were ones in which they feared being seen as unfit or incapable.
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quote:Do you feel that society in general should be more persistant in seeking the fathers out and requiring responsibility of them?
Our society is very good at seeking out the father, but usually for economic reasons. It seems that as much as we crack down on deadbeat dads, we sure don't do much in encouraging to do much else than write a check.
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If that were the source of the stigma, stigma against pre-marital sex, it would be easier for them to give up the child than to keep it.
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I honestly don't know how widespread it is. It may be that it is mostly within families, with a particular tendancy amongst cultures with close-knit families. This would be true for the Philippines, probably some Latin-americans, and from what Pooka said, the Chinese also.
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I don't know - I've always seen giving up a kid for adoption by a family as an incredibly generous and kind thing to do.
My wonder at why she would share that is not because of the stigma attached to pre-marital sex. Honestly, in this age, I don't think there is one. There certainly is in some cultures, but is there in the general public?
My wondering is because it seems so intensely personal and somewhat painful. Announcing it on your shirt seems like either exploiting it to get sympathy or a cry for help in understanding what just happened, like me wearing a t-shirt that says "My Mom died."
posted
The only experiences I've had with such a stigma are in small-town Montana. This is why I see it as a stigma against the inability to care for one's own.
Of course, this comes from a society in which more than one of my peers in high school told me that after school they were planning on getting pregnant so they could get on welfare.
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Interesting. Because that is how I viewed the Abortion T-shirts. But I guess it is such a big, controversial issue, that it has strong undertones of "stirring up trouble". Either that, or being very callous. Like cavalierly saying, "I eat babies for lunch" and meaning it.
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Bev- I know it's not ever possible to force men to bear equal stigma. The fact that a woman's stigma is visible mitigates, for me, her personal/social stigma. I'm just talking about how I wish things were.
N.B. My father in Law is White, born in Iowa, dutch last name. I think it is mainly an older-person thing.
At least there's the movie "Alfie". It's about a rogue (played by young Michael Caine) who has his way with the ladies and in the end he confronts the horror of his choices.
posted
A lot of the changes in adoption are market-driven. There is a combination of people waiting longer to have a child, then finding they can't, or just being infertile to begin with or whatever reason, there are a lot more adoptive parents particularly for infants.
(I hope someday to adopt either handicapped children or minority sibling groups- the ones that aren't snapped up by the usual couple- when my bio kids are older).
Anyway, this demand for newborns means women considering adoptions have a lot more choices, and who are you going to choose- the agency that offers you an Openness arrangement with letters and pictures, or the agency that treats you as a "woman in trouble" best forgotten?
P.S. The LDS system lets people interview with each other and the degree of openness is a large part of that sorting process.
P.P.S. I will admit that in the Chinese culture, they are much more likely to abort a female baby.
posted
On a side note, I am just about to mail a letter of recommendation for some good friends of ours giving glowing recommendations for them to be able to adopt their second child. It must be difficult giving up your baby and wondering how the adoptive parents will raise and treat the child of your womb/loins. What a leap of faith!
But this couple is one of the best out there, and I want to make sure they are given every opportunity to adopt.
CT: Thanks Edit: I think this is something difficult to find empirical evidence for. One of those prejudices that many people do not admit even to themselves much less are openly vocal about. But it does seem to me that the stigma exists enough to be a concern.
Pooka: I guess that is why there is a rising generation of many more men than women. Not something that has often happened in the history of our planet.
posted
Interesting, CT. Perhaps if it is a possibility and you address it, they might be willing to talk, get their feelings out in the open. I dunno.
What are some of your thoughts, Hatrack? Why do women get abortions who could healthily carry a healthy baby to full term and give it up for adoption? Is the second more painful for the mother? Is it the pain of giving up a fully formed, deeply loved baby? Is it the pain of going through pregnancy and childbirth? Is it stigma on the child or stigma on themselves for giving up that child?
How often are these the reasons? I have no idea. Have there been any surveys or studies done on this?
I am definitely someone who deeply supports women carrying their babies to term and adopting out. I am wondering what are the real reasons why it doesn't happen more often.
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That's what is so confusing to me. Why would having the baby and giving to a family be harder than not letting the baby live at all?
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Kat, it doesn't seem too hard for me. Especially if you do not think abortion is morally wrong. It is easier, more convenient. I personally can't imagine going through pregnancy and childbirth and not getting a wonderous baby to keep at the end. I can't imagine the pain of miscarriage, still-birth, and the like.
I also can't conceive of the terrible pain involved in giving up that beautiful, cherubic, child of my flesh. I have the deepest admiration and respect for those who are strong enough to make that choice.
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Part of the family shame from having to live with grandma or an aunt and uncle for a few months.
Which is what drove young women to use coat hangers and visit back alley butchers in order to avoid that social shame rather than try to carry a pregnancy to term on their own.
If the same pressure exists today or not I couldn't tell you - my uncle the gynecologist still has teen pregnancies showing up in his office so I'm going to guess not.
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That unabidable shame probably exists in some families, at least. But hopefully it is being replaced by understanding and compassion.
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One can certainly hope - I know of no studies based on evaluating the rise or fall of this social and familial shame as a factor in young people's lives.
I do find it amusing that we seem to have gone to the other end of the spectrum with bored teens emulating sex acts on tv to the point of causing a massive STD outbreak.
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Oh, my feelings about mother's choosing to give their child up for adoption rather than abort: I think they all deserve a medal. I think they deserve our honor and recognition. That is why *I* would support a T-shirt that says, "I gave up my child for adoption".
It wouldn't have to say, "I chose not to abort my child," or anything like that that would cause undue offense to pro-choicers, but the implied message would still be there. I think it would be a wonderful thing.
quote: I do find it amusing that we seem to have gone to the other end of the spectrum with bored teens emulating sex acts on tv to the point of causing a massive STD outbreak.
I wish for society a middle-ground where sex is held sacred without the undue persecution of those who bear children out of wedlock.
posted
That is a shame. If pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike care about too many abortions happening needlessly, then it is something that really ought to be better understood.
*Plans to read the articles soon*
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I guess being a stay-at-home-mom means I don't have to deal with "the world" on the same level as most people. I think it would suck me dry pretty fast.
I did get to talk to a charming young Czech boy today who came to my front door selling children's educational books. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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They looked *awesome*. Too expensive though. But I was inspired to look into getting some similar "beautifully illustrated children's encyclopedias" on the internet. Poor kid.
I don't do door-to-door salesmen. Some of them sucker me in to letting them talk to me, but I almost always send them away empty handed. I don't recall him saying "swell", but I did enjoy his accent.
Certainly has its own set of skills. But I think that I am able to control my environment more. If I choose, I can remove myself from much of the less plesant aspects of the world. Hatrack is a breath of fresh air for me.
Commendable, Bev Real ladies hold out for the appliance serviceman. j/k
I was just going to add that teen pregnancies have gone down a lot in the last decade. (On the teen/tween mother question) I researched it for a thread a while back. And for the last abortion thread it seems 88% of abortions are first trimester. For most women, that means avoiding visible pregnancy.
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quote:Which is what drove young women to use coat hangers
The coat-hanger thing is an urban myth. Nor were most illegal abortions performed in "back alleys." They were performed, illegally, in doctors' offices, "back alley" referring to the door by which the pregnant woman entered the office, so as not to be seen.
quote:about 30 women each year continue to die [from legal abortions] in the U.S. and about 2 in Canada. (The number is certainly higher, as abortion related deaths and post abortion complications are frequently not reported by medical staff and institutions as having resulted from an abortion.) That small number of maternal deaths is not attributable to legalization but solely to technology which has made abortion, both illegal and legal, a relatively safe procedure for mothers. Were abortion to be banned tomorrow, the same simple techniques would still be used, not coat hangers, and society would not witness a significant increased in maternal death related to illegal abortions.
What is currently being described as back-alley abortions were in fact nothing more than back-office abortions. They were executed in back offices of doctors. This has been admitted by no less than Mary Calderone, a former president of Planned Parenthood. The July 1960 American Journal of Health quotes her as saying that "90% of all illegal abortions are presently done by physicians." So on the admission itself of the world`s largest private provider of abortions, when abortion became legal, back-office abortions became front-office abortions. It would logically follow, therefore, that legalizing abortion brought no significant improvement in safety for women.
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What if? Any family that denies/ignores something that is nevertheless the case is probably going to keep having problems of that kind.
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There is a very strong bias in my family against adoption. It is not only seen as proof you do not love your child, but a betrayal of the whole family whom you are denying this child.
When I got pregnant in my senior year, I knew I would give the child up for adoption. My family is so messed up I did not want them to mess up another person. PLus, I was planning to move cross country to escape my messed up family, and I did not see myself doing that with a child.
Since I couldn't talk to my family, I ended up miscarrying alone at 9 weeks. They have never known I was pregnant.
I want to do better with my children.
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Yozhik, even though abortions have been illegally done by _doctors_, that means nothing as to whether that doctor was qualified to give an abortion.
The pro-choice med groups are worried about a decrease in the number of doctors who know how to give safe abortions. Many of the doctors who currently give abortions are close to retirement, with few to replace them. At least one of the pro-choice groups is hoping to encourage family practice doctors to learn the procedure in order to have it available to their patients on a need-to-use basis (as in, instead of advertising abortion procedures to the public, being your personal physician who can provide a requested procedure).
If abortions became illegal, sure doctors would know how to do the procedure next month. But in 10 years? 20 years? The desire to have abortions will still be there, but the knowledge and ability to perform safe abortions will diminish. And that is the problem.
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quote:If abortions became illegal, sure doctors would know how to do the procedure next month. But in 10 years? 20 years? The desire to have abortions will still be there
The desire to have abortions hasn't always been around. Isn't it a bit presumptious to assume that if we all of a sudden made it illegal that no progress would be made in either reliability of contraceptives or willingness of humans to engage in responsible sex? Just because we're in an era in which we desire sex without responsibility doesn't mean we're doomed to such views indefinitely.
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I'm sorry for that ordeal, Romanylass, and for its outcome
quote:Just because we're in an era in which we desire sex without responsibility doesn't mean we're doomed to such views indefinitely.
You're right in that while abortion has always been around, it has not always been something any but a tiny minority turns to. And I don't think we're doomed to the views you described indefinitely.
I do, however, think that criminalizing abortion simply would not work in the short-term. What I mean is, there would be lots of illegal abortions performed for quite awhile, since so many people are used to it and would resent the new law. Of course, I'm just guessing-and I think the same sort of thing would happen in the short-term if drugs were decriminalized. I think there would be an enormous spike in usage of previously-illegal drugs for a lengthy short-term period.
That guess of mine, though, has no bearing on my personal opinion regarding abortion-it's just what I think would happen.
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I don't think criminalizing abortion makes sense until it becomes a crime for a man to father an unwanted pregnancy. That is what I would like to see happen. And that is something we now have the technology to enforce.
I recently decided to move my tent to the "life at conception" camp, but that doesn't mean I support the constitutional amendment to ban abortion. The question for me becomes "Under what circumstances is a pregnancy an illness where abortion would be a justifiable treatment?"
I had a chilling experience when I was still a 1-1-0 (one pregnancy, one live birth, no living children). I was visiting my cousin at the hospital where her preemie daughter was in the NICU. As I left I saw the office for perinatal medicine and so I decided to stop in and ask a couple of questions.
As I was waiting, I overheard a conversation, the perinatologist consuliting with an OB/Gyn on how to advise a family that had found themselves with the same condition my son had died of- acute sthenosis in the left heart. The perinatologist said something like "A therapeutic abortion is indicated. If they carry this baby to term, it will be born seeming healthy and then within a few days it will develop congestive heart failure and die. Why put themselves through that?"
It was a pretty accurate depiction of how things go. But I wouldn't have given up the five days of my son's life for anything. I just am not sure how they can presume that the abortion is going to be easier.
Same for rape- how can it be assumed that having an abortion is going to be easier for the woman than having the child and giving it up for adoption? There is no way to know. It depends very much on what the mother believes about the life of the child.
So I find it ironic that abortion patients have been called "mothers" in this thread, even by those who are pro T-shirt. How can you be a mother if you never believed the child was alive?
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quote:I don't think criminalizing abortion makes sense until it becomes a crime for a man to father an unwanted pregnancy. That is what I would like to see happen. And that is something we now have the technology to enforce.
Err. I think you're going to have to clarify that for me. What sort of crime is it for a man to engage in willing sex with a woman?
If you're saying that it should be illegal to abandon a woman you've gotten pregnant and only pay child support, I'd agree to that if abortion were no longer legal. While I don't like that trend now, I think it'd be hypocritical of me to fight for the removal of the man's choice while the woman still has the choice to kill the fetus if she doesn't want it.
quote:I do, however, think that criminalizing abortion simply would not work in the short-term. What I mean is, there would be lots of illegal abortions performed for quite awhile, since so many people are used to it and would resent the new law.
Word. I'm torn between "criminalizing abortion is treating the symptom rather than the disease " and "tough love--the short-term can suffer for the benefit of the future".
*shrug* I'd love to see a world in which people only had sex if they were willing to accept its intended result. I think the trend of not taking responsibility for one's own actions is the real problem, and while I don't know the best way to stop it, I'd like to see people not passing the buck to fetuses, restaurants who served them hot coffee which they proceeded to spill on their laps, or the old lady who shot them while they were robbing her house.
I think a combination of education on birth control, abstinence, and responsibility is needed. And neither political party is getting it right. I just think Planned Parenthood has it more wrong than anyone else, promoting irresponsibility and ignoring abstinence.
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"I don't think criminalizing abortion makes sense until it becomes a crime for a man to father an unwanted pregnancy. That is what I would like to see happen."
*blink* But it would be a crime to MOTHER an unwanted pregnancy, too, right?
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posted
And what should be your response to a woman wearing the t-shirt? My first impulse is to say, "Oh. I'm sorry. That must have been a difficult decision to make."
And then let her tell her story.
I think it is honorable to put a face on those who have had abortions. The t-shirts seem to be more subdued than in your face. But it goes along the lines of wearing a shirt that says "I was raped" or "I euthanize stray animals". Is it something you want everyone to know? I guess I'd rather that some things remained more private.
I'm sure some people will wear the shirts to shock or anger others on purpose. Others will use them to bolster their confidence that they made the right decision.
It still makes me feel extremely sad. I wanted to vomit, too, at first, but I realize that being offended is not useful. Trying to understand the motives behind such a slogan and its public display is.
What would happen if I came to KamaCon wearing a shirt that said
"I was date-raped"? What would be your response to me?
What if someone wore one of these shirts to a Hatrack gathering, and that someone was a person you respect on the board?
How would you treat her? How would you want her to be treated were she yourself or a member of your inner circle?
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quote: If you're saying that it should be illegal to abandon a woman you've gotten pregnant and only pay child support, I'd agree to that if abortion were no longer legal. While I don't like that trend now, I think it'd be hypocritical of me to fight for the removal of the man's choice while the woman still has the choice to kill the fetus if she doesn't want it.
I guess we're stuck, then. I think the whole child support system is severely broken, and is getting more broken by the social perception that children don't require a father.
I guess I don't weight the scenario where a couple is together, and the man may not want the woman to get an abortion, but she does anyway. I think this can even happen if the couple is married.
P.S. Tom: no, because she already bears the natural consequence. I can't think of an analogy off hand. But the existence of DNA evidence changes the rules, in my opinion. I think they days when a guy can abandon a woman with a pregnancy should be over. I guess I'm saying that if a man impregnates a woman, he loses his right to privacy.
P.S. Jenny, if you wore a shirt that said that (and I was at KamaCon) I'd probably remark that I didn't know that and ask if there was an organization that made the shirts. I think date rape awareness is an incredibly important issue, and should be in the forefront of an effective feminist agenda.
quote: But it goes along the lines of wearing a shirt that says "I was raped" or "I euthanize stray animals".
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"I was date-raped"? What would be your response to me?
Shirts stating you got raped say "something awful happened to me", which is very different. It would be more like wearing a shirt that said "I comitted date-rape".
posted
having an abortion is not like committing date rape, IMHO, if that is what you were saying, Hobbes.
P.S. To elaborate, I think abortion is something women are guided into by a support structure that tells them "This will be best for you." CT mentioned that most abortions are the first for that woman. I take that as an indication that few women want it done again. I think women who wind up with an unwanted pregnancy tend to be women who are susceptible to the influence of others to do something not in their own best interest. Sure there are condom failures and so forth. But I don't know how many women would abort if it weren't for strong advocacy from professionals. (To engages my Moore-esque deniability persuasion )
posted
No, I don't think there's any sort of moral equilvelancy, and date-rape is something that is universally recognizied as being a very bad thing (though actually I was under the impression before this that almost everyone at least said something similar about abortion ). My point wasn't that they're the same but that there's difference between declaring that you were the victim in something, and that you were the purpetrator.
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I was all laughing over the "They Fight Crime!" thing.
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I guess that is why there is a rising generation of many more men than women. Not something that has often happened in the history of our planet.![[Frown]](frown.gif)
If pro-lifers and pro-choicers alike care about too many abortions happening needlessly, then it is something that really ought to be better understood.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Real ladies hold out for the appliance serviceman. j/k![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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). My point wasn't that they're the same but that there's difference between declaring that you were the victim in something, and that you were the purpetrator.
