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*should be going to bed. They actually have very different personalities, deriving from their different purposes. The Pembroke was used much more as a droving dog, for herding cattle to market along country roads. It also has a slightly Spitzier personality because it does have Spitz blood that came in from the Vikings. They tend to have more drive and can be slightly nippy about the heels.
The Cardigan was the all purpose farm dog. It would chase the cows out in the morning and bring them back in the evening, but relax most of the day under a nice shade tree, or hanging out at the barn. They can be nippy but not generally as much. Overall they are the more laid back dog. IMO. They are very, very people aware though, and my two would rather be where I am than anywhere else. They are probably slightly harder to obedience train than the pemb, but I suspect it is because they are smarter and ask more questions. I only train mine once or twice a week when I'm concentrating on obedience, any more than that and they get bored and turn off. They are extremely responsive even to the differences in the way I clear my throat, though.
IMO Cardigans are the healthier breed, you don't tend to get as many back problems and paralysis as you see in Pembs though it happens occasionally. This is partially due to the two breeds having entirely different rear constructions, but also to the fact that the Pembs remain far superior in popularity because of the Queen of England and therefore are overbred and have more puppy mill issues.
quote:huskies are cool. VERY aloof, but also very reliable and independent (intelligent).
fallow
I like them too but for a lot of people the independant breeds are considered less intelligent. A lot of times people associate intelligence with obedience.
There was a book written called The Intelligence of Dogs by a man named Coren. Interesting book but he had the obedience bias. All the dogs he listed as intelligent were the breeds that tended to want to please people more or had been bred to work well with humans.
Herding breeds, for the most part, are considered intelligent because they were bred to work with people to herd. (There are exceptions)
Other types of dogs are also intelligent but in a different way. You tell a stereotypical Sheltie or Border Collie (or Corgi?) with some training to sit, there is a good chance the dog will sit. You say it to a Husky that has seen a couple obedience classes to sit and he probably understands you but has to think if he feels like sitting or not.
So in short, I agree they are smart but some people might not agree with US.
posted
Space Opera- I've had beagles, mutts, coyotes, corgis and shepherds. We've always gotten puppies; the oldest we adopted was a 3 mos old from the SPCA.
Some mutts were sweet and even tempered. One was very social, another was easy to train and a good companion, others were good farm dogs. The beagles and the coyotes were friggin crazy and nipped at animals, adults and kids alike. The corgis were very good lap dogs, though they tended to bond with a single person and be a bit too needy/clingy. The german shepherds were easily trained and great companions, but didn't greet strangers warmly (this and shedding are the only gripe we had with the shepherds).
We were without a dog for a couple of years, and when we decided to get one, we decided we'd either get a lab or a golden.
We chose the lab over a golden. The personalities are VERY similar and the lab doesn't shed as much as the golden.
AJ is right, and it HAS taken a couple of years for him to calm down, but he's a joy and people are constantly asking what he is and what breeder we used.
My personal bias is that meeting the pup's parents is as important as knowing the pup's medical history. And much more important than a pedigree. We met the mom and dad and fell in love with both. In fact, the younger kids wanted to bring the mom home instead of the pup!
I know several people who have gotten animals from rescue societies. Each and every one of these animals has some kind of personality disorder that my friends have either decided to live with or they've returned the animal. Sadly, there seems to be a reason that these pure breds have landed in the hands of rescuers.
I had, and have seen, more luck with pups from the SPCA. Though, most of the dogs seem to have had a fear of hosed water- I assume from the washing down of the kennels.
quote: I know several people who have gotten animals from rescue societies. Each and every one of these animals has some kind of personality disorder that my friends have either decided to live with or they've returned the animal. Sadly, there seems to be a reason that these pure breds have landed in the hands of rescuers.
I have to stand by what I stated earlier - that it was possibly a mismatch to begin with.
I am not going to say that there are dogs that do not have behavioral issues but if a dog is deemed suitable to be placed up for adoption at a shelter that screens for temperament there is a really chance that the problem does not lie with the dog.
What happens is people choose dogs impulsively, or like it is a beauty contest, or simple because they do not really understand the dog but mean well and then the dog comes back and is blamed for being true to form.
When I worked at the shelter and we adopted out a Jack Russell there was no point in saying goodbye - it was more until we meet again. You can tell people that JRTs are hyper and crazy and destructive if bored but until you live with it you do not know. What is cute at 3pm at the shelter is not cute at 3am in your house. Dog comes back for being hyper but it is just being a JRT. Place this same dog in a home that has had the breed before and 98% there is not going to be an issue. Michelle
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I LOVE dogs...pretty much all breeds, although i am not really fond of the really small breeds. If I want something that small and annoying, I'll get a cat.....
Most people think of Border Collies when they think of the medium herding dogs, and they are a great dog to have if you are active. Any herding dog tends to be fairly intelligent and friendly, and most love being very active.
If you have that much land you might even consider buying several dogs. It would be a different experience form owning a single dog, and if you have your heart set on puppies then there usually isn't a problem getting the two to get along. Most problems occur when you have a dog that has been the only dog for a while and then you try to bring in another one. It is very hit or miss....some dogs adjust, some don't. If you get two from the start you raise them together and there is rarely a problem.
That way it won't feel like you are trying to replace Licorice with a dog, it will seem to be a different thing entirely.
You have never had more fun with a dog than if you have 2 Goldens, Labs, or Springers chase after the same stick....even more so if it is into water!
One of my dogs, Mickey, would get so worked up fetching in water that I had to force her out of the water before she drowned herself!
And twice I had to hop into a rowboat and chase her down to the middle of the lake because she decided to chase ducks or geese across the lake. The ducks were laughing at her, and just kept swimming away...but she was game. A little too game.... I had to jump into the water and carry her to shore once...lol..I'm pretty sure she wouldn't have made it back without me.... That was one of the first times we went up north with her....after that we knew better, and had to keep a close watch on her...but she was my favorite of all of them, I think.
posted
Psst... They aren't officially called Jack Russell Terriers anymore. AKC renamed the breed last year to "Parson Russell Terrier" I'm curious how long it will take for the new name to be used more than JRT. Or if it ever will.
I just have to second, and emphasize, the comment that even within each (and every) breed there are wide variations. We had a Black Lab as a pet, who we have always said was born old. She would fetch a ball, but she had less drive than a couch potato (and was a one-person dog for the most part). I've also see field labs that are so obsessive, they put most Border Collies to shame. This is one of those traits that can be somewhat difficult to identify as a puppy if their herritage is unknown (at least for some herding breeds, litters are broken into three types depending on activity level: cool, warm, hot.) The puppy's parents are normally the best indicators (and of course this isn't as much of a problem with older dogs).
I think you should probably follow your first instinct on what type of dog to get. The more you ask people, the more and more and more options you'll have. All three breeds you've mentioned considering would make good pets, be kind with kids, and so on.
And fallow, people do own Corgis. I think I'll own one sometime in the future (I'm hooked on herding breeds for life I suspect). Though I'm more fond of the Pembroke Welsh Corgis, but only because the ones I've met seemed more my style than the Cardigans.
And random question, what is it about my posts that's so forgetable or just non-obtrusive? I mentioned rescue groups about 8 posts into the thread, and no one noticed until much later when someone else brought it up? I've really got to start being cross and belligerent I suppose.
quote: Psst... They aren't officially called Jack Russell Terriers anymore. AKC renamed the breed last year to "Parson Russell Terrier" I'm curious how long it will take for the new name to be used more than JRT. Or if it ever will.
I am saying not. Just got people to know what a JRT is and I aint a changin' I am old and set in my ways.
Just like German Shepherd are supposed to be called GSDs - German Shepherd Dogs. I will fully take the blame if people think I am talking about a guy in Lederhosen. Michelle
Posts: 152 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Most all of our dogs have been "drop-offs". You know -- that is when people from the city decide they don't like their dog anymore - -and they drive around in the country, find a barren place, open the door and boot the dog out, and then drive home.
Really. Happens constantly.
Hairy came to us in a huge thunderstorm as a three-legged dog (he has the fourth leg, but doesn't use it -- xrays show it was crushed some time ago). Mickey was a cast-off German Shepherd cross. Taco was a dog that a friend of ours asked us to "watch" for a week while they went on vacation -- then they never came back for him (called and said they had decided they didn't want him -- were going to go get a different dog). My Pyr wasn't a drop-off. But his family was moving and couldn't take him with them, so he becames ours, much to my delight.
Over the years we have had many, many dogs, but most have just "shown up" one day after someone drove off and left them. It is so sad. Sometimes you will see these people -- a truck will go by really fast, and a few seconds later you see this dog running down the road after it.... Trying to catch up to his (former) owner who is now leaving him behind..
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Most of the important points have been covered. I'm just going to pop my head in and make a few random statements, in no particular order.
AJ and I may always disagree about Pembrokes v. Cardigans. Every Pembroke I've met has been charming, and incredibly personable. I've only met a handful of Cardis over the years, and each of them was quite snappy. I suspect I will reserve my own opinions of the two breeds until I someday get a chance to meet AJ's dogs in person. (*G* Whadaya say? Perhaps an all-breed show in a year or two?) The point is, though, that such traits (especially in a breed that doesn't see the HUGE HUGE numbers that, say, Labs, Goldens, or Cockers see) can be regionally different. I know that all the Cardigans I met (in Utah) were snappish, but it wasn't an extremely popular breed, and they may well have all come from the same lines.
Labradors often outgrow that puppyhood crazy stage at about 2 years apparently. My personal experience was that it tended to last until about age 4. Again, could have been regional. :-) But once they're past that stage, they are really cool dogs. (Hell, they're really cool during that phase, so long as you're really well prepared for it, and know how to deal with it.)
Dogs, both mixed-breed and purebred, land in shelters (and independant rescue organizations) for an ungodly number of reasons, very few having to do with the actual animals themselves. Very few dogs are truly "bad" in such a manner that the appropriate home, training, and structure cannot help that same animal blossom into a fine companion. The purebreds you see in shelters are very often the result of an impulse purchase. Someone hears about a coworker with a litter, or someone down the street, or sees an ad in the paper, or heaven forbid, walks into a pet store with their credit card. But cute little puppies grow up to be real dogs, with real needs and behaviors, and it's a lot easier to toss aside a "thing" you bought on impulse than the companion you spent much time researching about before purchasing. (I'm personally going for a record for the most time spent preparing to get a dog before actually getting it, but I'm down to approximately one more year before my next dog comes into my home.) The dog in the shelter for "barking too much" probably needs some training, structure, and more time spent with its people. Heh...you should see the dog I'm currently "fostering" that was surrendered to rescue because he was no longer wanted, after eight years.
It can't be stressed enough to do some homework about breeds before getting a dog, because they all vary so much. The cool thing, of course, is that there's a "right one" for nearly everyone who desires the companionship of a good dog. Know what TYPE of dog you want, before you start looking at specific breeds. Learning a bit about the types (scent houngs, herding dogs, flock guardian dogs, northern/spitz, sight hounds, gun dogs, terriers) helps a LOT in narrowing down just which breed might be best for you. I, for example, could never ever live with a terrier. I love to play with them, visit them, but live with them in my home? *SHUDDER* Not a chance.
Michelle, nice to meet you. One of the few things that ranks up there in my mind with the companionship of a good dog is the companionship of good dog people. Catch AJ or myself sometime privately.
posted
Also I have never owned a Pembroke, so I'm not as good at contrasting as some people who own both breeds. I don't dislike pembs at all, I'll probably own one eventually. There is a site somewhere that I will have to dig out, that describes the reactions of Cardis vs Pembs in different situations and is a pretty good generalization. It was written by a person who has both.
Things like if you walk up to a stranger the Pemb will bound forward and go "pet me, pet me!", while the Cardi will hold back, look at you and go "do you approve of this?" before walking forward to be dignifiedly petted.
I personally know of one cardi female who is a bit nippy. However she has been worked on cattle and has immense amounts of herding drive. If you tell her to knock it off she'll look up at you innocently. But that is also due partly to her natural herding style. My own dog has Jake, definitely herding instinct with livestock but uses completely different techniques (I can't remember the technical herding terms at the moment.)
posted
And it's really true that people get the dogs they do for frivolous reasons. Sometimes it is just someone giving away free puppies or whatever was cute in a movie.
For the record, most breeds in movies are HARD to own. Dalmatians are really tough to have, unless you are prepared, and they are not great with children (There are exceptions). JRTs, as we all ready discussed are hyperactive and nuts. (I love them though)
Hey, and I am not immune. The first dog I wanted to get as an adult was a cocker spaniel because of Lady and the Tramp. ER, no research there. As soon as I did some I knew it was not right and quickly settled on a Sheltie and ended up getting the most perfect dog EVER. Working at the shelter I met lots of cockers and not one was like Lady - not one talked!
Not everybody can spend years at an animal shelter but everyone can and should do research. Internet and library, talking to people that are walking dogs, going to the shelter, taking in a dog show...And asking people the worst quality of the breeds too - if they tell you "Nothing" they are lying! Michelle
Posts: 152 | Registered: Jul 2004
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I think we might have decided on a golden. We know from research and talking to all of you that they are wonderful dogs, and Mr. Opera had a golden as a child. He recalls her being highly trainable and very loving - she just passed away about 3 years ago. I'd love to get more than one dog, but I'm not certain we have the room for two right now. Also, there are always the financial considerations. We are used to paying for food, heartworm meds., and shots for a small dog, so the jump to a large one will be a change.
If we decide to go with a breeder, what are some questions to ask? We got lucky with Licorice because he came from a breeder that our long-time vet highly respected. Here are some questions I've come up with so far:
1. How long have you been in business? 2. Why did you go into this business? 3. How many litters do you breed per year? 4. Can we meet at least one of the parents? 5. How do you ensure that all of your puppies go to good homes? 6. In your opinion, what are the best/worst traits of goldens? 7. Will you be available for follow-up questions once we take a pup home?
posted
I love the way you keep changing the title of this thread Space Opera! I've never seen anybody use thread titles in quite that way before. One change to reflect a change in the subject, but never a progression like that. Very cool!
Posts: 16059 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote: I think we might have decided on a golden. We know from research and talking to all of you that they are wonderful dogs, and Mr. Opera had a golden as a child. He recalls her being highly trainable and very loving - she just passed away about 3 years ago. I'd love to get more than one dog, but I'm not certain we have the room for two right now. Also, there are always the financial considerations. We are used to paying for food, heartworm meds., and shots for a small dog, so the jump to a large one will be a change.
If we decide to go with a breeder, what are some questions to ask? We got lucky with Licorice because he came from a breeder that our long-time vet highly respected. Here are some questions I've come up with so far:
1. How long have you been in business? 2. Why did you go into this business? 3. How many litters do you breed per year? 4. Can we meet at least one of the parents? 5. How do you ensure that all of your puppies go to good homes? 6. In your opinion, what are the best/worst traits of goldens? 7. Will you be available for follow-up questions once we take a pup home?
The first thing is skip anyone that considers it a business. If this is their bread and butter guaranteed they are breeding too much and for the wrong reasons. Reputable breeders are seeking the betterment of their breed and laugh when anyone asks them are they making money. After all the testing and vet care, etc they should not be turning much, if any profit.
I would ask the breeder what qualities they breed for. Every breeder should know this. And their goals should somewhat match up with yours. It had better be more than pretty dog being bred to pretty dog.
I would ask how many times they breed a year and how they select who their dogs are bred to. I would want to hear a whole lot of understanding of genetics and that a lot of thought goes into these choices. And I would not like to hear that any dog is bred every heat.
Preferably I would want the breeder to show in conformation and/or obedience. Why? Because this breeder is more likely to understand their breed and to have a firm grasp of what they are breeding for.
I would not really trust a breeder that had a lot of puppies available at once. Means they are breeding too damned much. A good breeder often has a waiting list because they are not overbreeding and because they are seeking quality.
I would want the parent dogs to be certified as having sound hips (through the OFA which I believe stand for the Orthopedic Foundation for Animals) and would want the parent dogs to be around 2 years old because at 2 hips can really be fairly assessed. I also would like to see proof of good to excellent hips for several generations.
I am not sure if Goldens have eye issues and that is something you should look into and if that is an issue that should be look into.
I would find out what is the breed standard for Goldens. A breed standard is the blueprint of the ideal dog of that breed. Not every dog in every litter is going to match the standard and for a pet home it does not matter but if they understand the standard they understand the breed and you are more likely to get a dog that is true to the breed. Which is what you want, right? An intelligent dog that is loving and good with kids.
Any reputable breeder will ALWAYS take the dog back, always. It is ethical and if the person says otherwise they really are not responsible. I would also ask them if they were active with or had donated money to their local rescue.
Also, please give Golden Rescue a call. Even if they do not have puppies available they can point you to ethical breeders that work with them.
In short your questions are really good with the exception of the word "business." Michelle
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If you'll contact me off-forum, I can put you in touch with a REALLY good Golden breeder on the east coast. She is extremely active in the breed, and may be able to A) point you to a good breeder in your area, but definitely B) give you a rundown of what all you need to know about the breed in order to ask the right questions with a breeder. I've known her online for many years now, and think extremely highly of her, and her efforts.
I do know that there are some cancer concerns with the breed, and yes, even some temperament issues these days. (The plight of the popular breeds, I'm afriad.) So it's important to know what to look for and ask about.
~~~Lead
[ August 11, 2004, 10:58 PM: Message edited by: Lead ]
Posts: 247 | Registered: May 2000
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posted
If you trust the Vet you have been going to, you might want to involve him/her as well. They probrbly would know who has good breeding stock, and might even be able to vouch for the parents of the litter.
quote: If you trust the Vet you have been going to, you might want to involve him/her as well. They probrbly would know who has good breeding stock, and might even be able to vouch for the parents of the litter.
Kwea
I would not rule out that idea but a lot of vets really do not concern themselves with those issues. Michelle
Posts: 152 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Well, I have know a few vets who knew who to stay away form when looking....and they were always right about that, too.
A lot won't steer people to specific breeders because they might lose parients that way, but they do know what is going on, and if there is a problem sometimes they are the first to know.
But they often know about rescue operations, and breeders associations, and are alway glad to refer a person to those.
quote: But cute little puppies grow up to be real dogs, with real needs and behaviors, and it's a lot easier to toss aside a "thing" you bought on impulse than the companion you spent much time researching about before purchasing
Yep. In fact, our Seven (lab/chow mix), whom we got from a shelter, was dumped off there overnight. It would have been nice if whoever abandoned her had left a note of some kind saying why. (Evidently whoever it was didn't have the guts to surrender the dog in person.)
I suspect it was either (1) an issue of the owner not knowing how to housebreak a dog, since she wasn't quite housebroken when we got her, or (2) a chewing issue. Both issues are generally easy to correct if you know how and have a little patience, and it's a shame that people throw away perfectly nice dogs over them.
Well, their loss is my gain. *hugs Seven*
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posted
AJ, do you really think you'd have room in your house for myself and even one of my dogs? *G*
As for Texas, well, until I buy my own place, I'm afraid I can't offer much in the way of lodging, since we're pretty cramped in here. You'd have to sleep on the floor! But I can, and would HAPPILY, take you for food. BBQ, or Mexican, your choice. We have a cluster of shows in Ft. Worth every March and September, with two all-breed shows, and a number of specialties. I'm pretty sure that I've seen Corgis of one type or the other having a specialty here at some point in recent years. I tend to see a fair number of them at the all-breed shows as well. And, of course, we'll be having our National specialty here in...hrmm...2006 I think. Wheee! Yeah, I think it's 2006 and 2007. We're back up north again next year, at Purina Farm (which has GOT to beat the hell out of Lima, Ohio).
posted
My mom's best friend Sue had a family dog for 15 years, a black lab/collie mix named Princess. She was great, and when she died Sue had her creamated. My mom made a gravestone out of quickcrete, and put beads and stained glass into a pattern holding her name and a heart, and a bone.
Sue bawled like a baby (in a good way) when she saw it in July once my mom gave it to her. She plans on burying her in her favorite spot under the tree at the house on the lake where they spent summers, and she is putting the gravestone there so they will always have a physical representation of their well loved pet.
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What a lovely thing to do. Right now Licorice's ashes are in a very pretty heart-shaped wooden urn. The kids are not ready to scatter/bury them, and that's okay. I'm thinking that once we buy several acres (so we know we'll be there for a looooong time) we might bury the urn in the yard somewhere and plant a special bush or tree over it. That way everytime we see its beauty we'll think of him.
I'll bet you get to Tx before I get up there though. Two clusters a year, surely one of those will bring you down. *G*
Regarding ashes, I have Bogart's in a nice wooden box, sitting on the bookshelf right now. When I get my own property, I'll bury them in the garden, planting a rose bush or tree over them. I'll do the same with future dogs as well.
quote: I brought home Licorice's ashes today. I'm very sad, but I'm glad that he's home.
space opera
I have Paddington's ashes in a wooden box with a Sheltie painted on it and his collar sits on top of it.
It was rough when he passed. My husband thought he might have had a stroke, I was working at the shelter, and begged for our clinic to see him. The vet was going to treat him but my husband and I just looked at each other and knew we were not doing him any favors as he was starting to lose his dignity, and he was a very dignified dog. So I had a friend of mine at the shelter put him to sleep.
The shelter could have arranged for his cremation, but it is so chaotic there, so I took my lunch hour to take him to the vet by our house. And thenhad to go back to work at the shelter. It was tough because so much of the job was seeing animals go to sleep or be in pain.
I think I will always go with cremation because as much as you always think you will stay at a place you just never know.
posted
God point, but Sue and Tom are retiring next year up at that cottage. i also think they are putting the ashes into a metal container before burying them so if they do move they can take her and her gravestone with them.
A little weird for me, but I can undersatnd where they are coming from.
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I'm very sad, but I'm glad that he's home.
