posted
Two Mormon missionaries just came to my door. I'm too tired and dirty to accept company right now (I've been working outdoors all day), but I am interested in talking to them. I've made an appointment for them to come back Thursday, and they gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon.
Here's the thing, though. I am interested in reading the book, and I plan on reading as much as I can before they come back. And I am interested in talking to them. But I'm an agnostic, and I don't typically accept things on faith. I'm not trying to go into a whole thing about how 'religion is wrong', or any garbage like that. I'm just saying that the odds are immeasurably slim that they're going to be able to convince me to convert to LDS.
Does that mean that by inviting them to come back, I'm 'leading them on', so to speak, by giving them false hopes about my willingness to be converted? I certainly have no intentions to argue with them about the validity of faith, or ridicule them for their beliefs. I'm not that kind of person. I genuinely am interested in learning about LDS, as I am interested in learning about all religions.
But as far as educating me about Mormon doctrine or history goes, it's not like they'll have anything to tell me that I couldn't find out right here on Hatrack. Am I wasting their time by asking them to come back? Should I have just said, "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in joining your religion," and let it go at that? Or will they appreciate the fact that I'm willing to talk seriously with them? It won't count as a 'failure' if I don't convert, will it? I mean, that is the whole point of the mission, isn't it? To seek converts?
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I dunno.... I think it depends on the individual missionaries. Some feel like a failure if they don't convert, but I imagine only the newest feel that way. After about a year of proselytizing, you get a feel for how people will receive you, and you get used to rejection. In fact, you get to the point where you are thrilled if someone is just willing to talk to you.
Dude, you probably made their day.
As for my opinion of proselytizing, I think the most important thing is the actual sharing of the message. Whether it is accepted or not is out of the missionary's hands. Their job is to convey the message well. They are not responsible for how it is received. So I don't think you are "leading them on".
You'd only be leading them on if you feigned conversion and then said, "Ha! Fooled you!"
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posted
As for me personally, I loved running into people like you. The memories I have of interesting and curious people with intelligent views on faith are just as good as the memories of people that ended up joining the church. In fact, when I was on my mission, I figured that if I expected people to want to learn about my faith, I should learn about theirs. So I used the two years as an opportunity to go to lots of different churches and read books on faith from as many points of view as possible. I went on my mission as much for myself as anyone else, and I learned a lot about my beliefs from bouncing them off people like you seem to be. I never thought any less of the people who didn't join on my whim.
That being said, there are also missionaries out there who treat their calling like they were Amway salesmen. You know, the Fast Track to Success- I've Got All the Answers So Sit Down and Listen type of guys. So if you get someone that tries to railroad you into joining, just tell them no thanks and try not to let it sour the experience. In my experience, though, those type of guys were the minority.
Just be up front with them. Most likely if you give them a cookie and a glass of milk and tell them what you just told us, you'll have an interesting hour or so, and they will as well.
posted
Just lately I was visited by some missionaries (JW, not LDS), and I honestly intended to meet with them. However, they arrived twice while I was trying to sleep. The first time, I gave them a time when I would probably be up--only, circumstances caused that not to be the case when they came again. (My sleeping habits are unusual because of my work schedule, for any who don't know.)
Do you think I offended them? I really didn't mean to.
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I wouldn't imagine very often. People feigning conversion (6 discussions, at least 2 worthiness interviews, at least 1 sacrament meeting, a baptism) with the express purpose of putting one over on the missionaries?
Seems like a lot of work.
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Tom, I'm not sure it ever happens. My point was, Verily shouldn't be worried about leading them on.
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They won't convince you. Missionaries can't instill anyone with faith. They may talk someone into it briefly, but a real conversion and real faith and a real testimony come from the Holy Ghost. The missionaries are there to teach the basics of the gospel and invite people to make committments that lead to acting on that faith and testimony, but missionaries themselves never convince anyone. Conversion is a huge inward change that involves the head and the heart, and missionaries just don't have the power to change someone's heart. That comes from the Lord.
Don't be hesitant to talk to the missionaries because you may waste their time - they'd be delighted to talk to you, even if you're not looking to get baptized at the moment. Their purpose is to teach, though, so it is possible that they after a first few conversations, if you are truly still not interested, they may stop coming. You can still study on your own, of course, but their purpose is to find those the Lord has prepared and those that are ready. If that's not you right now, then they need to find those who are. When it is you, you can always find the missionaries again.
Added: And no, of course you wouldn't be counted as a failure for the decisions you make. The only failures in missionary work are when the missionary screws up. The rest is up to the individual's free choice and the Lord. It's your show.
quote:Their purpose is to teach, though, so it is possible that they after a first few conversations, if you are truly still not interested, they may stop coming
Ha ha. I wouldn't bank on that. I went through the investigative process (all six meetings), then decided "no thanks" at the end, and they STILL call me like every six months or so to check back. I told them I have a regular church now that I'm happy with, and they are always very polite and friendly, but I think each new group of Missionaries that come to this city get a "phone list" from the previous ones, and I get called again....
posted
Yes, they do get a list. It sounds like you got very close and were derailed by something. Former investigators are one of the main sources of...new investigators.
If I may be horribly rude and ask, why did you get so close and change your mind?
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No way do they feel like you are wasting their time. And I doubt there are too many people who have the missionaries come over who think it's going to make any difference. Like kat said, they are there to teach the gospel. You WILL waste their time if you have them over and then just try to shoot the breeze with them and avoid any mention of religion. But if you want to hear what they have to say or just ask them questions, they are at your service. And believe me, they are delighted to come talk to you.
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quote: If I may be horribly rude and ask, why did you get so close and change your mind?
Kat - I don't mind you asking, but I don't think I will go into it on this forum. Some people may take offense where none is intended. I still have many LDS friends, and religion is just something we choose not to discuss between us.
Let's just leave it at: I went with my gut feeling, which told me it wasn't for me. LDS say it is the Spirit that leads you to conversion into the LDS faith -- so I apparently never got that Spirit...
posted
Thanks to everyone for responding. Tomorrow's the day they're coming, and I'll be really interested to see how this goes. Circumstances have made me far busier this week than I had intended to be, so I didn't get nearly as far into the Book of Mormon as I'd hoped. Actually, I'm still on the First Book of Nephi. I had really hoped to have a little better idea what was in the texts before I talked to them. I can read a little more in bed tonight and a little more tomorrow before they come, but I doubt I'll have time to get very far. Lousy bosses, keep calling me in to work.
I'm wondering how I'm expected to act when they come. Should I tell them up front that I'm not seeking baptism? Should I just kind of keep my mouth shut and let them do their 'pitch'? I gather it's okay to offer them refreshments, but I assume offering them a Vanilla Coke would be an insult. Hmm.
quote:Besides, there's always a chance you'll really convert...
Well, theoretically, that's true. The Spirit may move me after all. Let's just say I'm not counting on it.
quote:Added: And no, of course you wouldn't be counted as a failure for the decisions you make. The only failures in missionary work are when the missionary screws up. The rest is up to the individual's free choice and the Lord. It's your show
Actually, I meant that I wondered if they would count it as a failure on their own part. I'm not worried about failing anything, because I'm not viewing this as a test or task of any kind. I just want to have an interesting conversation. But I know that the reason missionaries go out into the world is to proselytize and seek converts.
I was just wondering how disappointing it would be for them to have to take the trouble to talk to someone like me and end up by not being able to baptize me. Like, would they consider the time spent on me as wasted because they could have been using it on someone who really would convert? I mean, I'm sure the number of converts a missionary ends up making is probably a small one compared to the number of people they talk to. But I respect the sacredness of their mission, and I wouldn't want to divert them from it if that's what they're going to view our conversation as.
quote:Yes, they do get a list.
Okay, that disturbs me. I just wanted to have a one-time conversation with a couple of Mormons who really understand their faith. (I had Mormon friends in high school, but they couldn't always answer my questions. I assume that to be allowed to go on the mission, it's probably necessary for a person to be well educated about Mormon doctrine.) I never intended to sign up for a religious telemarketing list. I don't want to be called every few months by Mormons saying, "So, ya ready to convert yet?" Is there a way I can politely ask them not to add me to their phone list?
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quote:I'm wondering how I'm expected to act when they come. Should I tell them up front that I'm not seeking baptism?
Definitely. The more honest and upfront you are with them, the better job they'll be able to do of catering to your needs. IE, if you don't tell them that, they'll get their hopes up and spend the whole conversation sweating over how to ask you
quote:Should I just kind of keep my mouth shut and let them do their 'pitch'?
That sounds totally boring. In fact, silence will probably make them think they're doing a bad job. Just talk to them and ask questions like a normal person.
quote:I gather it's okay to offer them refreshments, but I assume offering them a Vanilla Coke would be an insult. Hmm.
Trust me, there is nothing you can ever say to a Mormon missionary that is worse than what the anti-Mormon down the street said five minutes before And in truth, the caffeine thing varies from Mormon to Mormon. Some missionaries might well take you up on the offer.
quote:Okay, that disturbs me. I just wanted to have a one-time conversation with a couple of Mormons who really understand their faith. I never intended to sign up for a religious telemarketing list. I don't want to be called every few months by Mormons saying, "So, ya ready to convert yet?" Is there a way I can politely ask them not to add me to their phone list?
I glanced back up at the thread and couldn't find the "phone list" context, so I'm not sure if I'm on target here ... but when I was on my mission, the only "phone list" was the one generated when people ordered things from TV. Otherwise, any phone-calling that went on was up to the relationship of the missionaries and the investigator. If you don't strike up a regular series of discussions, and if you tell them you're not interested in continuing, they'll have no reason to call you.
quote:(I had Mormon friends in high school, but they couldn't always answer my questions. I assume that to be allowed to go on the mission, it's probably necessary for a person to be well educated about Mormon doctrine.)
It's not a prerequisite — the prerequisites are all about living a moral life within the bounds set by the church. But during their missions, missionaries are required to read the scriptures constantly, practice their lessons, participate in church and sunday school, and take part in training meetings. So by the end, they usually know quite a bit. At least as much as they have the capacity to learn Some have trouble listening, I guess ...
Not everyone can answer every question, but if you've got any that the elders can't answer, do feel free to e-mail me or ask on the board. I've got an awesome track record of either giving correct answers or making up answers that sound good Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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Verily, missionaries are encouraged to keep records of their contacts. It's called an "area book". Farm Girl may receive phone calls because she considered joining the church. If you request to them not to put you in their area book, I imagine they would oblige you.
Missionaries get "transferred" from one area to another according to the needs of the mission. Often it is a new set of missionaries that goes through an area book looking for good leads. Whether or not they actually look someone up is up to them. But if you are not in the area book to begin with, it wouldn't happen to you.
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quote:Definitely. The more honest and upfront you are with them, the better job they'll be able to do of catering to your needs. IE, if you don't tell them that, they'll get their hopes up and spend the whole conversation sweating over how to ask you
Okay, that's good to know. I will definitely tell them right from the beginning, then.
quote:Trust me, there is nothing you can ever say to a Mormon missionary that is worse than what the anti-Mormon down the street said five minutes before
Well, that may be true, but I still don't want to give offense if I can reasonably avoid it.
quote:And in truth, the caffeine thing varies from Mormon to Mormon. Some missionaries might well take you up on the offer.
Okay. I wasn't sure. I know that the 'no caffeine' thing is a recommendation rather than a law or commandment. So I knew that it wouldn't be as bad as sitting down to talk to a rabbi and offering him the other half of your ham and cheese sandwich. Still, I'll make sure to have some Sprite around, just in case.
quote:I glanced back up at the thread and couldn't find the "phone list" context
Well, Farmgirl said:
quote:I wouldn't bank on that. I went through the investigative process (all six meetings), then decided "no thanks" at the end, and they STILL call me like every six months or so to check back. I told them I have a regular church now that I'm happy with, and they are always very polite and friendly, but I think each new group of Missionaries that come to this city get a "phone list" from the previous ones, and I get called again....
And then katharina said:
quote:Yes, they do get a list. It sounds like you got very close and were derailed by something. Former investigators are one of the main sources of...new investigators.
Which to me kind of sounded like it's standard practice for LDS missionaries to keep a list of the people they talked to and then pass the list on to new missionaries so the people can be contacted again. That idea bothered me. But maybe I misunderstood.
Edit: Looks like beverly answered that question while I was typing this post. Never mind.
quote:Not everyone can answer every question, but if you've got any that the elders can't answer, do feel free to e-mail me or ask on the board. I've got an awesome track record of either giving correct answers or making up answers that sound good
quote:Okay. I wasn't sure. I know that the 'no caffeine' thing is a recommendation rather than a law or commandment. So I knew that it wouldn't be as bad as sitting down to talk to a rabbi and offering him the other half of your ham and cheese sandwich.
Let me put it this way. It's not a commandment. It's a cultural tradition. But many of the people who follow the cultural tradition do so because they think it's a commandment The same goes for many other seemingly-bizarre LDS "rules".
quote:Which to me kind of sounded like it's standard practice for LDS missionaries to keep a list of the people they talked to and then pass the list on to new missionaries so the people can be contacted again. That idea bothered me. But maybe I misunderstood.
When I was a missionary, I kept phone numbers and addresses of people I had contacted as long as they were interested. When they stopped being interested, I didn't keep the number.
The only time I would call someone out of the blue that I found in the area book was when I got "whitewashed" in. IE, both of the previous missionaries were transferred out, and all my new companion and I had to go on was the area book, often with little written distinction between serious investigators and casual contacts.
The problem with area books is the fact that it takes a lot of effort to keep them up. Often, an area book doesn't represent the current state of a companionship's contacts, but rather the state they were in a week or a month or even three months ago.
So imagine how scary that was. I would have no idea what the person I got on the line might be thinking, so usually, I would be like, "Hey, I found your number in the records over here ... were you talking to some missionaries recently?" and if they wanted me gone, I got gone, and the number went away.
Maybe other missionaries handled it differently, but to me, that seemed like the only reasonable way ...
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Oh, but my point was ... the phone numbers weren't kept out of a desire to recontact someone again and again and bug them. Usually, if they were held onto, it was an oversight. Except in the deaf mission ... when we were lucky enough to find a deaf person at all, we usually kept track of it
Anyway, maybe other missionaries in other missions have other procedures. But that was my experience.
[ September 02, 2004, 03:35 AM: Message edited by: A Rat Named Dog ]
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If it helps, most missionaries are very, very bad at keeping it and even worse at looking at it. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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A finer mess of confusing notes and archaic doodlings can never be found.
"Do you think that we should put it in the area book that Maria came to the door naked?"
"It's 10:30. We have to go to bed. We'll update the book tomorrow. . ."
Four months later. . .
"Hey, look, Elder James and Steward never contacted this Maria person back. Let's drop by her house. . ."
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I'm with Dog. I don't think I ever looked at my area book for contacts. If there were people we were currently talking to, I knew about it. If not, going door to door was always easier than trying to bother people because they once talked to someone. Really, I rarely got any better information from an area book than I would get from going to someone's house at random. Remember, we're talking about 19 year old kids, not professional telemarketing firms.
It's kind of like that quote in Sneakers:
quote: Martin Bishop : Organized crime? Cosmo : Hah. Don't kid yourself. It's not that organized.
quote: I don't want to be called every few months by Mormons saying, "So, ya ready to convert yet?" Is there a way I can politely ask them not to add me to their phone list?
Perhaps I unintentionally painted a bad picture that I didn't intend to with my comment earlier, and that is why you took it that way, Verily.
Although they DID call me periodically for months afterward, part of that was MY fault for not being direct enough with them (afraid of hurting their feelings) about the fact that I didn't want them to call. I would just make up excuses some. Finally, the last time they called, I said, "Look, I've found a new church home, I really like it and I'm not interested in your religion anymore and would like to be taken off your list" and after that they stop calling.
And those times they did call, they were so NICE that I almost hated to turn them down on their offer to come visit with me again.
So just be up-front with them about it, and they won't bug you afterwards. Better to be firm, even if you are afraid it might hurt their feelings.
posted
Hmph. Well I just met episode twenty-two of Madlax.
quote:You'd only be leading them on if you feigned conversion and then said, "Ha! Fooled you!"
People can reasonably disagree about how often this happens, but it does happen quite a bit more than I think it should. I mean, it sounds really silly, but you'd be amazed at how many people join a church for months or even years before revealing that they were just fooling around.
Particularly with a church that is somewhat famous for having secret rituals and so forth...I mean, at least that's a motive I can sorta understand, when it happens. Not that mocking another religion and trying to steal their temple offerings is good. I was once with this guy, in Korea, and we went past this little shrine in a cave. Well, there was no one around and the gate across the mouth of the cave wasn't locked, so this guy suggests that we loot their temple and is halfway through the gate before I could stop him.
One common problem is when someone "converts" for love, not getting that their paramour is serious about wanting someone of the same faith (hint, if said person won't marry you unless you convert, then it is a serious matter). A year later the "convert" is like, "I didn't realize that you were so serious about this religion thing...."
Anyway, that shouldn't be a problem here. And don't worry if you don't end up being interested. Technically, Mormons are into "universal salvation", such that everyone that doesn't actively hate God will get the best afterlife possible for that individual.
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quote:One common problem is when someone "converts" for love, not getting that their paramour is serious about wanting someone of the same faith (hint, if said person won't marry you unless you convert, then it is a serious matter). A year later the "convert" is like, "I didn't realize that you were so serious about this religion thing...."
This happens ALL THE TIME. It happened with/to my stepsister. It happens constantly. What annoying about it is that it treats the religion so lightly, and it's not a very honest thing to do. I would a thousand, thousand times rather be with a someone good who simply didn't believe it and wasn't going to fake it rather than someone who was willing to fake and lie about something so incredibly important. I respect the first one.
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Heh. Mormon missionaries have come to Providence.
I saw them a few weeks ago, while I was driving somewhere. Yesterday they came to my apartment. I was in the middle of a scrabble game, but I told them they could stop by some other time.
This may be interesting. I have no doubt that I will remain agnostic. Too many social-issue differences between me and the Mormon Church. But like Verily, I'm willing to chat with them. It's the religious studies major in me. Though, I'm intending to read Mormon America and other scholar texts before I see them again (I've read a portion of Mormon America and thought it very interesting).
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For those of you who have served a mission, especially those who were in the US.... What were the most surprising/embarrassing/wildest encouters you had with someone in their home?
Not that I'm looking for ideas or anything..
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1. The naked guy sitting on his back porch. We knocked the on the front door, he yelled to come around back, we got halfway around and, uh, reversed course. Good grief.
2. "Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ. How do you feel about his experience?" "I totally believe it. That happened to my cousin."
3. "It would be wonderful if you would marry my son. I'd even be willing to have him be Mormon if it meant he went back to church." -- Methodist minister's wife
4. (Second discussion, second time meeting, never met LDS or been to a Christian church before) "Why would God want us to be baptized?" "To...be obedient, to get rid of our sins, and to have a new life as a disciple of Christ." <missionaries sit, stunned> "That's right? Do you want to teach? How did you know that?" "I read your book." "In a WEEK?"
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quote:Mormon America and other scholar texts before I see them again
Do any of those include writings by actual members of the church? Or are they only critical texts?
The Missionaries aren't going to argue semantics, or play church history apologetics. They're there to teach the very basic elements of doctrine and theology.
So, just don't expect a long in-depth discussion based on 'scholar texts'. Whether it's written by believing scholars or critical scholars, it's not their job to bear their testimonies of those works.
posted
*muses* The investigators that shocked me weren't the ones that came in challenging - that's to be expected. When I served on the UofM campus, that's what usually happened. The shocking ones were the ones that listened and let themselves believe it. I still get floored by that - every time.
quote:Beliefs must be willing to withstand reasonable discussion, in both directions.
which is exactly what the article I linked to refers to. I suggest reading it - I think you'll understand what exactly I was trying to say.
I'm not advocating the head-in-the-sand method by anymeans.
BUT...
Thing is - the Missionaries don't have the time, resources, or allowance to research any historical claims made on their mission. If you have Church History or semantical questions that they don't know right off the bat, they can't go straight home, dig out their own reference books or do an internet search and get back to you. This isn't their mission.
So bringing up any non-doctrinal grievances of these sort of things are quite, well, unproductive.
Lucky for the Missionaries, last time someone showed up with an 'Explain This' packet, I had tagged along, was well aware of every acusation or 'discrepancy' he tried to bring forth, and was able to take it off the Missionary's hands, and direct the Questioner to additional sources that more directly addressed those issues.
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One of the most interesting things that happened to me on my mission was meeting a witch. We were knocking on doors and this woman comes to the door wearing a necklace with a 5 pointed star on it. She said she was a Wiccan. At the time I knew very little about Wicca, so I considered the experience to be a little strange.
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quote: *muses* The investigators that shocked me weren't the ones that came in challenging - that's to be expected. When I served on the UofM campus, that's what usually happened. The shocking ones were the ones that listened and let themselves believe it. I still get floored by that - every time.
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The missionaries are there to teach the basics of the gospel and invite people to make committments that lead to acting on that faith and testimony, but missionaries themselves never convince anyone. Conversion is a huge inward change that involves the head and the heart, and missionaries just don't have the power to change someone's heart. That comes from the Lord.![[ROFL]](graemlins/rofl.gif)
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Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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