posted
Seriously, I'm sick of him. yes, I am impatient, but it's becoming increasingly obvious that Chad is nothing more than a thoughtless troll. Since his arrival, political debates are reduced to a parade of sickening and pointless absurdities.
To paraphrase what the level of Hatrack's political discourse has been reduced to you, I present Monty Python's Debate Clinic:
quote: M: (Knock) A: Come in. M: Ah, Is this the right room for an argument? A: I told you once. M: No you haven't. A: Yes I have. M: When? A: Just now. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: You didn't A: I did! M: You didn't! A: I'm telling you I did! M: You did not!! A: Oh, I'm sorry, just one moment. Is this a five minute argument or the full half hour? M: Oh, just the five minutes. A: Ah, thank you. Anyway, I did. M: You most certainly did not. A: Look, let's get this thing clear; I quite definitely told you. M: No you did not. A: Yes I did. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: No you didn't. A: Yes I did. M: You didn't. A: Did. M: Oh look, this isn't an argument. A: Yes it is. M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction. A: No it isn't. M: It is! A: It is not. M: Look, you just contradicted me. A: I did not. M: Oh you did!! A: No, no, no. M: You did just then. A: Nonsense! M: Oh, this is futile! A: No it isn't. M: I came here for a good argument. A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument. M: An argument isn't just contradiction. A: It can be. M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. A: No it isn't. M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction. A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.' A: Yes it is! M: No it isn't! M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn't. M: It is. A: Not at all. M: Now look. A: (Rings bell) Good Morning. M: What? A: That's it. Good morning. M: I was just getting interested. A: Sorry, the five minutes is up. M: That was never five minutes! A: I'm afraid it was. M: It wasn't.
I've been very very careful not to call names to anyone since my first day I said "liberal". To NOT insult them.
I post my views. I give my reasons. I don't say anyone has to like them or agree with them.
I do ask that you don't attack me personally because I extend the same offer to you.
It appears because I have STRONG views that some may disagree with and I POST them that makes me a "TROLL".
It appears that some people have the idea that they can post their "hot topics" and it's not trolling.
I invite you to go back through my posts for the last couple of days and tell me where I have broken some rule that would even warrant your post.
If having a dissenting opinion, posting it, and defending it without personally attacking other posters is a crime. Then I am guilty as charged.
If you are looking for the people calling names such as "Troll", and "a$$" and "ignorant" and "____head" and "idiot" then you are barking up the wrong tree. But if you look around at the other barkers, you will see who they are.
Until you can learn to respect dissenting opinions and other posters, you really have no basis from which to fling your accusations.
quote:What about if no one responds or counters my argument, would me posting some sort of "I guess I win" acclamation classify as trolling?
Depends. Are you serious?
Because when no one counters your argument, you know you've said something utterly ridiculous. I know I've killed a few threads that way. Posts: 5264 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
Stroman, I haven't decided yet that you're a troll. I think there's potential for good Hatrackerness in there. That would pretty cool for that to flourish.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:What about if no one responds or counters my argument, would me posting some sort of "I guess I win" acclamation classify as trolling?
Unless you've responded to every counter to every one of your posts here (which I know you haven't), I'd say you have to either accept that you "lost" in those threads lacking such counters or be a hypocrite.
posted
The fact he put my name "Chad" in the original post seem to affirm that his attack is directed at me.
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
And maybe it's just me, but saying "______ is a thoughtless troll" about any member of this board is probably the worst form of "flame fishing" there is.
I'm starting to wonder if those shouting "Troll" are in fact doing ...what by posting such?
Either way, the whole thread is uncalled for and inappropriate.
It's an attack leveled directly at another member of the board.
I ask if name calling of other members is appropriate?
Posts: 1533 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Seriously, though, Chad, the problem is not that you tick people off when you post "I guess I win" when you've effectively countered all their arguments; the problem is that you've posted stuff like "I guess I win" when you THINK you've effectively countered their arguments, when in reality you've clearly misunderstood their argument in the first place.
It's like playing checkers with somebody, randomly hopping your first piece around the board regardless of rules or color, yelling "King me!" four or five times, then sweeping all your opponent's pieces to the floor -- and, when they say, "Hey, you can't do that," turning to them and saying, "Don't be a poor loser, man."
posted
Since when have threads making unbased attacks on individual Jatraqueros become acceptable?
If arguing poorly makes one trollish and deserving of a ban, most Jatraqueros should have been banned long ago (at least those who go into serious threads.)
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
*considers* Except for a few unfortunate and flaming exceptions, appellations of troll are rarely unbased.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Almost all troll accusations here on founded on little more than a new person being annoying to some members. There are more than a few of those accused who have later gone on to become valued members. And I suspect there are more than a few who got mad and left, but would have gone on to become valued members.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I will admit that I do not view every thread, and that I've only seen a little of CStroman, but I've been a bit appalled at the immediate rejection I've seen.
If anyone can post me some good reason as to why this was earned, I'll understand. I know it can sometimes be earned.
But this was too borderline to get the jump, IMHO.
Now, I accept that Chad could be a cedonym, and in that case we should stop interacting.
But I do not think he is a troll. I think he could be educated, but clearly with all the condescension that has gone on here that can't happen. I've seen too much "We've already taken down this argument, refuted that fact, etc and it is stupid. You are an embarrassment to your cause, etc" Not very nice, eh?
Unless this is a cedonym, this is a real person we are condemning and putting down. Lets get off our high horse here and try a little teaching before we throw the guy to the flames.
Posts: 438 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I don't think Chad has been a troll for some time. He just has ideas a lot of you(us) don't like, but that's not being a troll. If he would just, for the love of all that is holy, stop typing things in every other post in ALL caps, it would really be appreciated.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
I would say that the name-calling you have recieved is generally not accepted.
But you have to understand why it's happening.
We really like to think of Hatrack as a gathering of friends of the Cards. We are all sitting down in their living room. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we get upset, but we always try to be civil.
Then you barge in, yelling, and making demands. You get upset that people aren't really hearing your arguments, but you do not appear to be really listening to others. Your tone is so abrasive that even those that agree with you on the issues (as I tend to) get embarassed by your behavior.
We keep trying different ways to get the point across to you that you are coming across rude and boorish.
Maybe you should take a step back and see how the other posters here on the 'rack deal with each other. Take some time to get a feel for the place. Hatrack has a place for you, but as with any other social situation, you have to learn the unspoken rules of behavior.
posted
Man, the more Chad posts the more I think he's just fiesty. Which is annoying, because the only time I get to bust out insults like "flake off, dillweed!" is where there's a troll about. Ironically, not being a troll has ruined my fun.
You just can't win on this board, can you? Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
mph is eloquent and persuasive above. He speaks well for Hatrack as a whole on this, I think.
I think fugu13's post from another thread is appropriate to block-quote here. He too is reasonable, eloquent, and well-spoken.
What do you think of this, Chad? Make sense? (comments, questions?)
quote:Chad, almost no thoughts are not okay to post. The key is how you post them. Posts which insult other posters, posts which show a disregard for other people's points against you (you have in particular been guilty of this one, making many posts talking about how people aren't refuting your points, when you've ignored many calm refutations of your basic logic skills and kept insisting you were absolutely correct), these sorts of posts should not be made.
And to clarify a bit about the last. If you disagree with someone, but can't support the why at all, you shouldn't post that they are wrong. This does not mean its not okay to disagree without a reasoned argument, this means you shouldn't be saying they are wrong without a reasoned argument. It would be perfectly okay to give your position without reference to their position.
Furthermore, Because someone does not refute you does not mean you are right, or they think you're right, or you have won the argument. It may very well mean, as it has for several of your posts, that your argument is considered too simplistically wrong to bother refuting, particularly given your behavior of ignoring people's refutations. It may also mean the person just doesn't feel like posting, or have time. Many of us are busy people, and many of us also recognize that even if we are right, inflammatory discussions can make us worked up and tense, situations we prefer to avoid.
We really do think of Hatrack as a virtual equivalent of the Card's living room. The mantra (as per the User Agreement) is "We speak with passion, we listen with respect." Listening with respect doesn't mean you have to agree, but it does mean you exert the Principle of Charity (see 5b) and refrain from the written equivalent of spiking and dancing in the end zone. That's appropriate for flamey forums, but not for here.
We don't always live up to the ideals ourselves, but we try to do so. Makes for more interesting dinner conversation and less Unmaking in the world.
[ September 24, 2004, 12:34 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
That is correct. Often when a thread gets too heated, I just back out of it. I enjoy discussion, but I don't enjoy arguing. Just because I don't respond to somebody doens't mean I don't have a response. It's not a competition to see who can win.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I'll add my agreement to mph and fugu13...both very well put. Chad initially came across as rude, boorish, and...not sure what word I'm looking for...smug? self-righteous? closed-minded? something like that, anyway. But as he's posted more, I've started to see glimmers of potential good Hatracker under there I'm still pretty much a n00b myself, but I like to think I have a pretty good impression of how this community operates and how to (and how not to) go about finding my place in it.
Posts: 957 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Wow... you all call chad this and no one even calls ME this... That's friggin AWESOME... However now i must change the way i post... I still agree with Chad on all of this.
Posts: 529 | Registered: Jul 2004
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My basic yardstick: Is this person authentically trying to understand and communicate with another person, or are they trying to score points off of them?
If you come across as sincerely trying, people will overlook a lot and forgive even more. If you come across as ticking off points in some ego list that has nothing to do with building an actual relationship, people will react to that negatively -- even if, during the point-getting, you toe the letter of the law but not the spirit.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
yeah.. i think it would be pretty stupid to try and ignore / kick out/ get rid of chad in any way... because if you did, I would have to take on the roll of the annoying guy. And believe me... you don't want that. I may be 19, but my mind doesn't know that. My mind thinks I'm twelve... and i know how to be annoying... heh heh
posted
Cool, Chad. The next step as a Hatracker is to start working on helping others live up to the ideal when they are not doing so.
That is, when someone here falls [i.e., does not live up to that ideal], the appropriate response is to stick out a hand and help them up, or at least look away so as to minimize their embarrassment, rather than pointing and laughing. Or jumping up and down, wagging your butt in his or her face to demonstrate your superior skills of balance.
Again, none of us live up to this all the time. But next time someone insults you by misreading your intention, even though this would take a lot of strong character, try something like rephrasing your point so that it is more clearly understood and (gently, in a friendly way) ask for clarification. You'll get loads of positive support.
[ September 24, 2004, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
BTW, it is emotionally exhausting to be routinely having to turn the other cheek, to be the charitable one in the face of unkindness, and to be always extending yourself more than halfway to meet the other person in the conversation.
You shouldn't have to do this a lot, because other people in the community should be trying to live up to the ideal as well as help out when you are getting quagmired with someone else. Again, we don't always live up to the ideal as a community, but we try. When it works, it's great.
Your entre into the community could provide a nice nitus for reflection and refocusing as a community, I think.
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Ah... I love Hatrack. A potentially icky situation has once again brought out the great Jatraquero minds who have solved the problem with understanding and respect.
*beams with pleasure*
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Just to be clear, I'll defer the "great minds" title to mph and fugu13, as well as any other revered status. I was unaware before recently of being placed by anyone on any sort of pedestal, and I have great and frothing desire to avoid it ever happening again.
Not my cuppa, not by any measure.
(Don't make me tell you to do anatomically impossible things to yourself, Telpy. With due respect to Kwea, I've done it before, and I might just do it again. )
Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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