posted
I used Defenestraitor's words for the subject of this post.
I find it interesting when people talk about the "ills of organized religion." My first question is for Defenestrator:
"Firsthand" is a very personal word. Do you mind elaborating?
TO everyone else: What are the ills of organized religion and do you think the benefits of 0rganized religion create more health then sickness?
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posted
Gathering in congregations give opportunity for germs to spread. We should all live in sterile isolation bubbles. And then there is communion/sacraments. Can you spell biohazard?
Seriously, no one way of life is enjoyable for everyone. Like college.
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posted
That's the ills of organized anything. Can you make a list of the good things that come about from human organizations?
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posted
Any human organization will produce a mixed bag of results. There have been some possible ills mentioned. Before creating the CBA mentioned in the second part of the question, we could list some of the benefits. Anti-Chris, what about you? Can you think of any?
posted
Once you have completed all the rites of passage, and obtained all the authority, rights, and privileges that an organized religion has to offer, then the only purpose that an organized religion serves is as a venue for finding opportunities to serve others.
Too many people rely too heavily on organized religion when it comes to personal decision making and finding spiritual strength.
Edit: Add continuing education as a purpose of organized religion.
a) Charity work (depending on religion) b) Unifying factor (depending on religion) c) Promotion of peaceful behavior (depending on religion)
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posted
The benefits of organized religion easily outweigh the "ills", excluding the issue of whether it is true or not. I suspect that without organized religion our society would be very barbaric today, and we would lack the discoveries of science, the benefits of democracy, and enlightenment in general. Historically, these things have arisen out of organized religion.
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Really? When did the Girl Scouts wipe out those that disagreed with them, as the French Catholics did to the Heugonauts in the 16 and 17th century?
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posted
Obviously you didn't hear about the Brownie Massacre of 63. It was terrible, thin mints and chocolate chips everywhere.
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Have the Girl Scouts had the power to? If the Girl Scouts were given the power to control lives like that, I have no doubt that something of the sort would take place.
If you give ANY group of people the power over life and death and take away accountability, both wonderful and terrible things will happen.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (After which, therefore because of which) is NOT true.
Conversely, the Boy Scouts is absolutely a religious organization. It isn't any one particular religion, but religion is woven through everything. Can you tell me of the massacres done by it?
posted
Morbo: Out of curiousity, why did you choose that example? Seems kind of random if you ask me ^^.
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quote: we would lack the discoveries of science, the benefits of democracy, and enlightenment in general. Historically, these things have arisen out of organized religion.
Tres. HMMmm. I'll let you support this argument if you like. It might have some merit. However, let me just say that the Catholic Church has certainly suppressed science, democracy and enlightenment throughout much of it's history: Darwin and evolution; the excommunication of Galilio (sp) for being the 1st human to see the moons of Jupiter and write about it (the Church reversed itself around 1970); the Church supported feudalism and monarchism because it benefited from them;auto-da-fes of the Spanish inquistion, frequently torturing and killing alchemists/scientists; italian book burnings and murders of advocates of enlightenment. The list goes on and on...
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posted
Organized religion can provide a society of friendship and support as well as a structure of observances and requirements that rewards and reaffirms beliefs.
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posted
Aren't the Girl Scouts an "organized anything?" It was a random choice.
Of course, if you grant power to organizations the dynamic changes, as Katharina acknowleged. But this is exactly what happens when you give blind faith to any organization: you grant them enormous power, for good and ill. I will grant that organised religions have done much good in the world. I wonder if they have done more good than ill.
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quote: Organized religion can provide a society of friendship and support as well as a structure of observances and requirements that rewards and reaffirms beliefs.
Very true, and a solace denied atheists and agnostics. Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
THe problem with citing various atrocities committed in the name of religion that go against that religion's principles is that it assumes that without the religion, the atrocities would not have happened. I don't believe that.
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posted
There are lots of legitimate criticisms to levy against the Catholic Church and it's relationship to science, but somehow you seemed to get them all wrong:
quote:Darwin and evolution;
I'd be interested to see your sources on this. The Catholic Church has stayed pretty much out of the Evolution arena. Even if they disagreed with it, which I haven't seen serious evidence of, they hardly supressed it.
quote:the excommunication of Galilio (sp) for being the 1st human to see the moons of Jupiter and write about it (the Church reversed itself around 1970);
While the Church's actions with respect to Galileo are hardly laudable, they had nothing to do with his being the first human to see the moons of Jupiter. Whether the prosectuion was primarily about scriptural interpretation or science, it is certain that at the time, Galileo's hypotheses on heliocentrism were not provable, especially given that so many of his specific hypotheses were wrong. The Church badly overstepped its role in this matter, and committed an injustice. But it does no good to so badly misstate the facts.
Dagonee Edit: I also find it interesting that both of your posts listing specifics were wrongs committed by the Catholic Church, especially when at least one of your points (evolution) had a weak connection at best and there exist far better examples of religious interference for it.
quote:Organized religion can provide a society of friendship and support as well as a structure of observances and requirements that rewards and reaffirms beliefs.
How are any of those denied atheists?
They can form an organization to gain community and friendship, and support groups. They can set up a structure of observances, such as historical anniversaries perhaps, and celebrate their common beliefs. They can include and exclude others from their organizations or societies based on those individuals beliefs, and thus reward and reaffirm their beliefs.
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quote:I will grant that organised religions have done much good in the world. I wonder if they have done more good than ill.
When the leaders of an organized religion also have tremendous political power, then yes, these atrocities have occurred. But you can usually find how they twisted religious beliefs to justify their very political ambitions. I personally belief that most organized religions don't have these atrocities written into their fundamental beliefs and that the garden-variety member of the religion isn't going to up and instigate an ethnic cleansing in the name of faith. When religion gets used as a tool for political gain, then it gets a bad name.
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quote:Tres. HMMmm. I'll let you support this argument if you like. It might have some merit. However, let me just say that the Catholic Church has certainly suppressed science, democracy and enlightenment throughout much of it's history: Darwin and evolution; the excommunication of Galilio (sp) for being the 1st human to see the moons of Jupiter and write about it (the Church reversed itself around 1970); the Church supported feudalism and monarchism because it benefited from them;auto-da-fes of the Spanish inquistion, frequently torturing and killing alchemists/scientists; italian book burnings and murders of advocates of enlightenment.
Certain groups within organized religion did all of those things at various times and places, but at other times and places equally important segments of organized religion were putting into motion the movements that would create everything you listed as being oppressed above. The ideas behind the notions of the scientific method, rationalism, and human rights emerged from mainly thinkers associated with the church, which had protected and sponsored the survival of ideas dating back to Plato and Aristotle or further. It is from the church that financing was found for people to study things like this, in a world where it was hard to even survive. And it was also the church that promoted the notions of right and wrong in society. Even today, I suspect there are many people who would give little thought to the ethics of their actions if the church was not there to remind them about it, in an organized, direct way.
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posted
For those who seem to agree that organized religion can be a part of atrocities when they have the power to,...
Would you agree that perhaps by limiting the power of religion, we limit their ability to become corrupt? That perhaps it's in the best interest of a Church to have less political and military power than more?
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quote:That perhaps it's in the best interest of a Church to have less political and military power than more?
My stars, yes. I'm opposed to a theocracy in general - even one headed by my own religion - because I'd rather keep the mess of power out of it. Utah was basically a theocracy when Brigham Young was both president of the church and governor of the territory, but that was special circumstances. I wouldn't want it as a regular thing at ALL.
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posted
whoa... Sorry everyone. I meant no offense to anyone. It wasn't my intent to bash organized religion. I admire those who have faith in a higher power, for I too believe in a higher power. I admire those who attend churches and who build stronger communities because of it. Organized religion has many goods. I should have been more specific. By "ill" I was referring mainly to when organized religion (and here I'll be more specific and say "Roman Catholicism") transcends the bounds of personal faith and community-building, into the realm of moral dictatorship.
When Bush's own aides stop questioning him and start to defend his responses to the public, in spite of his usage of heavy religious terms like “crusade”, it frightens me. It has that foreboding feel from my childhood, when the priest "could do no wrong", when some devout members of my family "could do no wrong". Their preaching was holy-writ, no matter how sharply it contrasted with the facts, with science, with the growing preference in America of inclusion over exclusion. I worry when politicians begin using religious rhetoric to sell their points to an all-too-believing public, in effect exploiting their faith. I worry when politicians favor their own personal belief, even in the face of overwhelming facts, in creating foreign policy. It makes me wonder, just how much of this war was based on Bush’s personal beliefs? Just how much did he persuade others in his administration to follow his lead out of fear of being disloyal?
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posted
They don't have power over life and death, they can't lock anyone up, they don't have someone at the highest levels who answers to the church, and being excommunicated simply means you can't go to the temple, take sacrament, or hold callings within the church anymore.
In other words, there is only power only those to whom belonging and participating is important. In contrast, at other times in space and history, religions have had power over those who did not wish to belong to them.
Added: If you mean influence over those who DO hold secular power, I don't agree - there just aren't the numbers to justify that. I don't know enough about the details of lobbying and religion in politics to say definitely, but I hear a great deal more about the Pope's opinion on issues and Jesse Jackson running to "advise" the President that I do about the LDS church inflencing things.
posted
I have come up with two metaphors of my own to explain what can go wrong with organized religion.
First in English: The biggest problems of organized religion is that the organization tends to be heirarchical, and that religion tends to require perfection. In other words, very human people are given moral diminion over others, and such becomes their status that they can not be seen to be anything less than perfect.
For too many, this demand for perfection harms the minister/priest. They know they are human but the society demands they be perfect.
But mostly what happens is that people follow the commands from the hierarchy without question, and those questions need to be answered.
Love, charity, all the virtues are placed second to the virtue of obeidiance. That is fine under an all caring all knowing God. It is disaster waiting to happen under an imperfect human.
The Metaphors:
A Wolf in Shepherds Clothing: These are people who take on the trappings of religion, demand the obiediance mentioned above, but do so for thier own gains. Whether its amassing fortunes or altar boys, these people pervert what they are supposed to be supporting, and drive away people from all churches.
The Roman in Temple Garb: THis is a politician who dresses himself in the trappings of religion to promote his carreer, not really his religion.
I believe that much of the log-jam that is our present debate on Abortion is because of these Romans In Temple Garb on both sides. All claim that the other side is wrong and the only right answer is voting for them.
But that is getting sidetracked.
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posted
Saying you don't like organized religion is like saying you don't like school.
How many schools have you been to? Can you assume that they are all like yours? Can you assume that they are all like Harvard? Can you take an example of an incident from a school controlled by the Hitler Youth and use it to show why schools are bad?
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Pros of organized religion: Unification of believers Extended support system within the religious community
Cons: Straight from Marx - people believe in a better afterlife - this belief can keep them complacent in a bad earthly situation, such as poverty, etc. Can alienate those who don't believe Can also be used as a reason for war and persecution of nonbelievers
space opera
[ October 18, 2004, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
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posted
There's a difference between organized religion and personal religious belief. I am not a fan of mixing organized religion and political power. However, a politician who expresses his or her personal religious belief as a motive for action is not necessarily trying to mix Church and State. Using the general religious beliefs of a population segment as persuasion is as much politics as a call to any type of values or morals--it's part of the rhetorical situation of majority representation and appeal. It is not necessarily an attempt to force one's set of beliefs on everyone, but it is definitely an attempt to act from a strong value foundation. Anyone charismatic enough to win a major elected office will likely be operating from a strong set of personal values--be they honorable or despicable.
If I don't agree with the beliefs that a political leader is acting upon, then I have the right to speak out and try to get a new leader elected. At the same time, the politician has a right to be vocal about his or her beliefs and try to persuade his or her constituency to the same end.
[ October 18, 2004, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: advice for robots ]
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posted
Whoa! Lots to chew on here, some very good responses. Annie: let's just say it's not for me. Like Marx, I wouldn't belong to any religion that would have me as a member. But that's a good point, I and others tend to paint organized religion with too broad of a brush.
quote: The ideas behind the notions of the scientific method, rationalism, and human rights emerged from mainly thinkers associated with the church
Tres. Note that for hundreds of years almost all thinkers in Europe were Christian, with a few exceptions such as the Jewish minority. I submit that the scientific method flourished in spite of the Catholic Church, not because of it. You have a point about human rights, however: I agree with you that the human rights movements of the 19th and 20th centuries in Western society would have been barren indeed without Christian support.
Rubble: I'll have to think about that.
Dag: I'll take your word on evolution and the Church. I guess I was really thinking about the rise of Creationism, promoted by funamentalist Christians. I stand by my post regarding Galileo (subject to further research): he was excommunicated primarily because he wrote and talked about moons orbiting Jupiter, which appeared to support heliocentrism, in apparent contradiction to scripture. Whew! Perhaps it's organized power and hierchies in general I am opposed to, instead of just organized religion?
posted
Fight the power! I thought about it last night and realized much of my dislike of organized religion definitely stems from a hatred of (often ignorant and wrong) authority.
Another reason I keep coming back to Hatrack: insight into myself.
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And then there is communion/sacraments. Can you spell biohazard?![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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whoa... Sorry everyone. I meant no offense to anyone. It wasn't my intent to bash organized religion. I admire those who have faith in a higher power, for I too believe in a higher power. I admire those who attend churches and who build stronger communities because of it. Organized religion has many goods. I should have been more specific. By "ill" I was referring mainly to when organized religion (and here I'll be more specific and say "Roman Catholicism") transcends the bounds of personal faith and community-building, into the realm of moral dictatorship. ![[Dont Know]](graemlins/dontknow.gif)
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