...anyway, I think you're taking this too seriously. I dislike Bush myself, but so what? I don't think Kerry would have been much better, with his turn-US-over-to-UN attitude.
Of course, what'd I know? I wanted the Libertarian candidate to win ^^.
Posts: 3060 | Registered: Nov 2003
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...but if you try sometimes, you might find You get what you need!
Not a reflection on the election results. Just a need to finish the song lyric. Move along, nothing to see here.
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I dunno, Dag-this campaign has been the lengthiest ever, and the dirtiest in a long time. I think it's understandable that the apparent defeated would be initially angry and emotional.
Speaking as someone who voted for Bush, I sure as hell would be irritated and liable to emotion-and I know my fellow voters would be, too.
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Yeah. Those Bush-voters are such horrid people, rotten to the core, making miserable neighbors and truly evil decisions.
If only we as a society were advanced enough, civilized enough, to usher in a new era in which the masses wake up and voted for Kerry!
Cats and dogs would live together! Colors would be brighter, food would taste better, and we'd all get ponies!
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Well, you can take comfort in the fact that Bush did not clearly have a mandate-- there are lots of disappointed people out there this morning who will be sure to keep their eyes on the administration through the next four years.
Kerry supporters-- don't martyr yourselves. It is neccessary that this country has your voice of skeptiscism. Even if I don't agree with Kerry's values, I see the need for opposition to the current administration, if only as a token attempt to "keep them honest."
So much was accomplished in this divisive, bitter election. I'm heartened that people were standing in lines to vote, that people waited hours to exercise their opinion. Maybe that's worth all the bitterness.
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If the process is clean, and the victory honest, then where is your objection?
(Two big if's, I know)
This isn't a loss for the American people at all-- now that we've shown interest in politics again, perhaps we can push for more honesty. This election is a wake-up call. The people are watching now.
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I imagine there are strategists in the Democratic National Committee this morning who are taking a hard look at the party platform and candidate choosing.
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"Well, you can take comfort in the fact that Bush did not clearly have a mandate-- there are lots of disappointed people out there this morning who will be sure to keep their eyes on the administration through the next four years."
Yeah, right. The same people who voted their hearts out last night and found out that born-again Christians really do outnumber them everywhere it counts.
The disappointed people can't keep a closer eye on the administration than they have been. And they can't get any more disappointed.
I am really, legitimately, a member of a minority. And while that minority can wield real power in specific areas in which it's concentrated, it simply can't stand up to the weight of the majority on a national level.
I think Ohio in particular, with its overwhelming born-again turnout driven by anti-homosexual fervor, demonstrates this aptly; even though both sides had record turnout, it's simply not possible to muster enough opposition to shut out the people willing to hate for God.
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quote: I respect those who disagree with me. But that doesn't mean I want to live in a country where a man like George Bush can win an election fair-and-square.
quote:Yeah. Those Bush-voters are such horrid people, rotten to the core, making miserable neighbors and truly evil decisions.
Non sequitur.
quote:Yeah, right. The same people who voted their hearts out last night and found out that born-again Christians really do outnumber them everywhere it counts.
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Sara, that's not a non-sequitur. Especially by adding the "fair and square" tag, adam has made it clear that it's some attribute of the voters who elected Bush that make the country less acceptable to him as a place of residence.
You've got me there. The tone of my posts has been extremely sarcastic, ungracious, and pretty childish. But...you know, in this case, I really do feel like I'm giving what I'm getting-just in plainer language. So no, I don't believe it was a non-sequitir, even though I do believe it was the other things I just said.
quote:I am really, legitimately, a member of a minority. And while that minority can wield real power in specific areas in which it's concentrated, it simply can't stand up to the weight of the majority on a national level.
So what are you going to do about that?
A commentator yesterday said something I thought was very interesting-- there was little to no pandering to the Conservative Democrats / Liberal Republicans from the opposing party. Bush came right down party lines-- Democrat = Liberal = Enemy. So did Kerry.
But nothing could be clearer, to me at least, that America does not think that way. Lots of Republicans are dissatisfied and a bit ashamed of the President's fumbling of the Iraqi reconstruction (I'm one). And with heightened political awareness, the time is ripe for reasoning.
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Oh, hey, don't forget that every state that had a proposition for it voted for marriage to be defined as between a man and a woman and protect the sanctity of marriage (from those homo sinners).
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What does follow from Adam's statement is that most of his neighbors (in the extended sense) have made a choice that makes him feel uncomfortable to live here.
Doesn't mean he's saying they are "horrid ... rotten ... miserable ... truly evil." Just that he is uncomfortable living with their decisions.
I'm in the same place. I am uncomfortable as a citizen in a country that is so strongly evangelically Christian and which is comfortable with our foreign policy over the last four years.
Doesn't mean that I find any of y'all who voted for Bush to be evil -- just that I don't want to live in this country because I'm not comfortable with that trend, and I have to find a way to deal with that.
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quote:You've got me there. The tone of my posts has been extremely sarcastic, ungracious, and pretty childish.
I still loves ya.
quote: But...you know, in this case, I really do feel like I'm giving what I'm getting-just in plainer language. So no, I don't believe it was a non-sequitir, even though I do believe it was the other things I just said.
I just don't think my lack of comfort in living with this decision means I think you are a miserable, rotten hunk o' manhood. That's all.
I just feel very much the stranger in the strange land.
[ November 03, 2004, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Sara Sasse ]
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Well, since the actual deciding factor here appears to not have been any tax philosophy or opinion on the war but, rather, one's belief in born-again Christianity, I can only hope that these people all become disillusioned with their choice of God. Any suggestions on how I can speed up that process?
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I was using hyperbole, of course, but I think there is an element of truth in it. I mean, it's not just that you think that someone has made a bad political decision...but to say that "I don't want to live here anymore," or "I'm uncomfortable living here now," doesn't that also imply a moral judgement as well?
Which, really, is fine with me (though obviously I disagree with that judgement, if it exists). How someone votes is a strong measure of their morality, and among the most meaningful. But it really does seem to me that if one is now uncomfortable living in America, that necessarily means they have found a lack in morality and other human qualities based on their neighbor's political stances.
But, really, we can all rest assured of this: it won't last. The Congress and the White House are never aligned for very long. The thing that worries me most now is the SCOTUS and what such a powerful GOP will do. Hopefully, the Justices can hold off retiring.
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You could point out that they really don't like the other members of their various congregations after all-- works for people in our ward all the time.
quote:Well, since the actual deciding factor here appears to not have been any tax philosophy or opinion on the war but, rather, one's belief in born-again Christianity
I'm interested in the fact behind this statement, Tom. Are you being bitter, or is there evidence to your opinion? In my part of the world, even the Christian radio stations were touting Bush's war on terror rather than his stance on homosexual marriage.
[ November 03, 2004, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Scott R ]
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There's no chance that the justices can hold off another four years. It's going to be a big re-make of SCOTUS and a terrifying one, for many of us.
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BtL, coincidentally, my husband and I happen to have a meeting already scheduled with our immigration attorney, Glorily Lopez. The meeting was set to discuss his reapplication for permanent resident status (it has to be renewed after the first year of residence in the States). We were originally going to meet last week, but she had laryngitis.
Looks like we have some additional things to talk about. Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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You have a point, Twink. Really, my ideal situation would have been for the DNC to gain a solid majority in at least one house of Congress, and Bush to have kept the White House.
Wait...that's hardly my ideal...let's just say it's what I hoped for.
I think this is the only reason possible for me to be grateful for new minority tactics in Congress for filibustering.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:I was using hyperbole, of course, but I think there is an element of truth in it. I mean, it's not just that you think that someone has made a bad political decision...but to say that "I don't want to live here anymore," or "I'm uncomfortable living here now," doesn't that also imply a moral judgement as well?
For me, it is a question of feeling at home and feeling like my life as citizen is congruent with the rest of me.
This is now pretty much an evangelical Christian nation that is comfortable with its foreign policy decisions of the last four years. That is what it is -- it has declared itself.
I'll be your friend, but I don't wanna be married to ya. Posts: 2919 | Registered: Aug 2004
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"I'm interested in the fact behind this statement, Tom. Are you being bitter, or is there evidence to your opinion?"
Absolutely. In every state that had an anti-homosexual proposition on the ballot, evangelical christians turned out in numbers that exceeded estimates by at least 10%. In Ohio, in particular -- the only state that really mattered in this election -- evangelical christians go better than 3:1 for Bush.
The best predictor of voting patterns this election happens to be religious values. As I predicted, months ago, and everyone said I was silly for doing.
------
You know, if Sara winds up moving to Canada because Ohio doesn't like homosexuals, I will be very, very mad at Imaginary Jesus.
posted
Heh, J4, I was hoping for the opposite. I was quite unconcered about the Congress and Senate, but was really hoping for a change in the presidency, so as to get rid of, most notably, Ashcroft and Rumsfeld (whose tendrils are seeping into this country in ways that make me very unhappy).
quote:This is now pretty much an evangelical Christian nation that is comfortable with its foreign policy decisions of the last four years. That is what it is -- it has declared itself.
Well, about half-plus-one has so declared itself.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Tom, I find myself once again in the minority. It's an odd feeling to know that the majority of the people in America disagree with my opinion of things in general, and candidates in particular.
I don't really think the "born again" vote is a fair characterisation of what turned the tide in this election. I think people voted their conscience and Bush won. I can't really nit pick at that. I don't like the outcome, but I don't think it's any less valid if one group is more successful than the other at getting their supporters to the polls.
It's over. Bush won. And the House and Senate are both GOP-held by wider majorities.
It is now up to the Republican party to show that their leadership is good for all Americans. That they are the ones worthy of this leadership position if they want to retain it.
I'm skeptical. But we (by the only process we have) have selected them to lead and now we need to see what they can do.
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quote:It is now up to the Republican party to show that their leadership is good for all Americans. That they are the ones worthy of this leadership position if they want to retain it.
They won't, though. That's my prediction.
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quote:You know, if Sara winds up moving to Canada because Ohio doesn't like homosexuals, I will be very, very mad at Imaginary Jesus.
Tom, I've come to the realization that I was an errant Canadian seed that blew too far South. It was an accident. *weak grin
I will visit often, I promise. And you must come visit me a lot, too. Send SOphie for inoculations.
Seriously, David and I have been looking seriously at heading back to Canada after the fellowship. He is a fish out of water here, and I do feel all warm and squishy up there. Foremost for me, even above the question of religious belief, is that I can practice medicine there without fighting an uphill battle. I don't have family keeping me here, and I can (hopefully) seduce my friends to come visit.
This just speeds up our timetable a bit, frankly.
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"I don't really think the 'born again' vote is a fair characterisation of what turned the tide in this election. I think people voted their conscience and Bush won. I can't really nit pick at that. I don't like the outcome, but I don't think it's any less valid if one group is more successful than the other at getting their supporters to the polls."
Look at the stats again, Bob. Voter turnout was the key, and I honestly believe that both parties really pulled out literally every single stop in order to bring as many people to the polls as they could. And if you review the survey data, it's obvious that the evangelical Christian vote and the Democratic base went head to head, and the evangelical Christians just plain outnumbered 'em.
Now, I don't doubt that they WERE voting their conscience. But keep in mind that these are people who define "good" as "what God wants," so I have trouble believing that their religion was not a factor in determining what their conscience said.
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quote:Yeah, right. The same people who voted their hearts out last night and found out that born-again Christians really do outnumber them everywhere it counts.
quote:I am really, legitimately, a member of a minority. And while that minority can wield real power in specific areas in which it's concentrated, it simply can't stand up to the weight of the majority on a national level.
I think Ohio in particular, with its overwhelming born-again turnout driven by anti-homosexual fervor, demonstrates this aptly; even though both sides had record turnout, it's simply not possible to muster enough opposition to shut out the people willing to hate for God.
quote:This is now pretty much an evangelical Christian nation that is comfortable with its foreign policy decisions of the last four years. That is what it is -- it has declared itself.
quote:Absolutely. In every state that had an anti-homosexual proposition on the ballot, evangelical christians turned out in numbers that exceeded estimates by at least 10%. In Ohio, in particular -- the only state that really mattered in this election -- evangelical christians go better than 3:1 for Bush.
I agree with all of this. I can't express how very stunnned and sorrowful I feel right now. The thought of what laws are going to be passed in the next four years truly scares me. My fear is that while everyone concentrates on the wars abroad, laws that legislate morality will be passed without a blip on the radar.
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To an extent, I think Tom’s right. But only about a third of American evangelicals are solidly in “the religious right.” I think what tipped the election is that Republican Christians were successful in focusing the discussion of religious issues on abortion and same-sex marriage. Other evangelicals, including professors at some pretty conservative seminaries, tried to broaden the discussion to include poverty, human rights, the death penalty, the environment, and Bush’s theology of empire, among other things.
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From what I heard, churches were actively campaigning in this election. Definately time to remove their tax exempt status in my opinion.
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I think that's better said. I wasn't trying to say that "born agains" weren't the deciding factor, but that the religious of a particular type were courted and brought to the polls by the GOP.
They have as much right to vote as I do.
The GOP has a right to get the vote out.
It just worked better for them this time. They did a better job of making this election count enough to their supporters.
This is how every election in America has been since I've been old enough to pay attention. A few issues become important enough to get people to polls in greater numbers than what the other party can do.
I think we need a change in this country, that's for sure.
But I can't fault the GOP for how they managed this time.
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I intend to fault the people who voted for them, however. I can accept that the country has embraced that philosophy without respecting the people who hold it.
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When you put it that way, Tom, it makes me really want to jump up and change my mind about the issues we disagree on.
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Scott, do you honestly think that you're well-qualified to offer lifestyle suggestions to mourning Democrats at the moment? If so, what would your qualifications be?
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You can move to the north east. That's pretty close to Canada and seems to hold their value system.
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