posted
Telp... I am so sorry this is happening. Some people just can never understand how restricting one group's rights can be harmful to society. Not only does it bring society down, it leads to other restrictions until sooner or later you find yourself in one of those groups. And then, they stand around with dumb looks on their faces wondering "Why".
Last night, while I was watching the different news about the elections, they brought up the different amendments and the corresponding polls. Even the wording for the people against banning same-sex marriages seemed condescending. It just reminded me that we still have a long way to go before tolerance is the minimum and exceptance is the norm. (Yes, I know that sounds idealistic. I admit it. I am a closet idealist.)
posted
Telp, if it helps... Providence is an incredible city that's very gay-friendly. I'd love to have you as a neighbor.
It aches that millions of Americans believe in their hearts that it's not worthy for me to love another woman. That I shouldn't receive societal approval and governmental benefits for a gay relationship. I'm planning on being childless. But somehow if I marry a man, it's different to them than if I want to marry a woman.
Yeowch. It's suddenly become very personal.
Posts: 1261 | Registered: Apr 2004
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I hope what I offer is comfort, but I'm not sure how it will feel.
Minority issues - the repeal of discriminatory laws and reversal of entrenched attitudes - tend to play out over decades rather than months or years.
In other words, this isn't the end of your struggle, but probably close to the beginning.
And, yes, I know that marriage rights have been an issue for gays and lesbians for a long time, but the public perception is largely that this issue appeared "overnight." Historically, that usually doesn't go well.
Hurt for now, but hold on to the belief that people, hearts and laws can change over time.
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posted
Okay, I have to point out that this in no way, shape, or form implies the vote has told you to "go die." It doesn't say to "shut up." It doesn't necessarily imply any hatred or bigotry. The only thing it says is that your relationship would not be recognized by the state and you might (or might not) get the special benefit that recognized marriages do. To claim otherwise is not very fair to those who support these amendments.
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posted
Xap, I don't think any of us are worried about the people who voted for the amendments feel like right now. I'm concerned for Telp, because he's my friend, and I'm concerned for all the other gays and lesbians out there who now feel like they (and their relationships) are nullified by the rest of the nation.
This country is going in the wrong direction in so many ways, but this one in particular I find particularly painful.
And in many ways I think these laws are just delaying us from social justice. They aren't increasing any sense of "morality" as their proponents seem to believe. They just delay what is inevitable if we are to live up to our basic ideals.
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posted
Xap... I don't want to be insulting.. but this vote is against ME personally... and all other gay folk. And this insults all those couples that are married but have no children....and insults again those gay folk who live the same way but are somehow different.
The human race will not stop breeding. Civilization will not collapse.
This is bigotry...and there is no way around it. I'm living in it. I can tell you it's real.
So, everyone who voted to dictate how I can live my life... fine. That's your right. But it's my right to insult you (plural you) back. *raises middle finger to all the voters for these evil amendments*
Now that we are even...let the court battles begin.
[ November 03, 2004, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Telperion the Silver ]
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posted
Becuase if the argument is that marriage is only for man and women because of procreation... well.. those straight couples who marry but have no children are destroying the institution of marriage.
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posted
I don't think procreation is the only thing that the argument hinges on, Telp.
Obviously I don't want to debate the issue -this thread is not the place for it. Let's just say I disagree with your assessment that it's an insult to married people without children and leave it at that.
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quote:Xap... I don't want to be insulting.. but this vote is against ME personally... and all other gay folk.
No, it really isn't - any more than any vote that takes away something I might want is against ME personally. That interpretation simply is not consistent with either the law itself or the reasons many give for supporting the law.
Now, if you went around asking each voter for a thumbs up or thumbs down on "gay folk" THEN it would be against you personally. But I bet it would end up overwhelmingly thmubs up, despite a significant minority being strongly thumbs down.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Belle, some of us feel that one argument opponents have is that a gay couple can't have a family related to both of them. This is ignoring all the other "moral" arguments. People have said, "Well, they don't need those benefits because marriage is for family." Well what happens when a straight couple chooses not to bear children?
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posted
I think that just proves the "no children" argument doesn't hold any water - it's not the real reason people are against gay marriage, I suspect.
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quote:No, it really isn't - any more than any vote that takes away something I might want is against ME personally
How often does a law or a new amendment take anything away from you? Or anyone else? Not that often. Loosing the right to shoot fireworks or having to pay a new tax isn't quite up there loosing your benefits, will, executorship, visitation rights, and having the dream of union put out of reach for 50 years or more. And in some of these states the new amendments are apparently talking about banning anything that LOOKS like it might be gay. How they plan on enforcing this I have no idea.
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posted
I want affordable healthcare - and that is a pretty critical (life and death even) issue for a lot of people. The government won't give it to me, though. Does that mean the government is voting against ME personally? No. It's not even voting against the collectively uninsured personally. It's just voting against a certain healthcare plan.
And this amendment is just against a certain way of the government defining marriage. It's not against YOU or even gay people in general.
Posts: 2432 | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Telp -- how does this vote take anything from you that you have?
Now, maybe it shuts the door for you getting something you want, but that's not the same thing as taking it from you.
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posted
Taking away a possible future is definitely taking away that is real and of value. Telp has been personally affected by this - the society he lives in is not the one that he thought he did, and his possible future has been altered. That's definitely a loss. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
If it is any consolation, most of the people who voted for the bans probably did so not realizing the effect it would have on you and other gay people. They probably did not sit down and listen to the concerns of someone who would be directly affected by their vote. Partially because you and Karl Ed and Synthesia and others have explained why it matters to you, I voted no on the gay marriage ban in my state. So maybe you didn't prevent any bans from passing, but you influenced at least one voter. You put a human face on the issue, and it is vital that you keep doing that. People are fine with keeping "those gays" from marrying, but it's harder to do something you know will hurt your friends.
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quote:...So maybe you didn't prevent any bans from passing, but you influenced at least one voter. You put a human face on the issue, and it is vital that you keep doing that. People are fine with keeping "those gays" from marrying, but it's harder to do something you know will hurt your friends.
That's a success then. Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
It passed in KY too. You have my sympathies.
Fight back. Fight where it hurts. Find something important to most or all of the supporters of the ban, or something important to those with power or influence over the supporters. Threaten and/or destroy it, and let them know why you did so.
I wish I could think of something more specific, but I have my own civil liberties that I fight for. I would say find a national company, preferably one that does not dominate its market. It should be based in Michigan and employs lots of people there. Organize a boycott. Support laws that hurt that company.
That is just one idea. Your enemies have all the guns right now, so it is time to develop WMDs.
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quote:Find something important to most or all of the supporters of the ban, or something important to those with power or influence over the supporters. Threaten and/or destroy it, and let them know why you did so.
I can't think of anything that would less effective.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Ok, I gotta say this. If you don't like it, blame it on the snarky pregnancy hormones. STOP TELLING TELPY THAT HE SHOULDN'T FEEL BAD ABOUT THIS AND THAT IT'S NOT ABOUT HIM PERSONALLY. This isn't a debate thread, and those of you who are posting unsupportive comments need to go do so in another thread.
posted
Ok, I'm sorry, but I didn't add this. Why is it that we can have a thread that runs 3 pages full of support for a woman who feels she's been assaulted by a man - as well as reassurances that she's not over-reacting? But when a gay man opens up and shares his feelings some of you just can't help but kick him when he's down. Telp has just been told that his future has been changed!!! Possibilities are now closed to him. Maybe he hasn't "lost" anything, as one person so haughtily pointed out, but have some compassion.
quote: Find something important to most or all of the supporters of the ban, or something important to those with power or influence over the supporters. Threaten and/or destroy it, and let them know why you did so.
That sure sounds like terrorism to me.
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quote: Maybe he hasn't "lost" anything, as one person so haughtily pointed out, but have some compassion.
I didn't intend to say this in a haughty manner. Telp said "How often does a law or a new amendment take anything away from you? Or anyone else? Not that often." I thought about his question, and I thought "Not that often. In fact, I'm not sure it's happening here."
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posted
Toretha: it did? Wow, I've been out of the loop for a long time.
and another kiss for telpy from both me and B. Now, there, you get a kiss from a cute Asian boy. ::hopes that brightens your day::
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I'm a white guy, with a Judeo-Christian upbringing. I was raised in a good neighborhood, by good parents who made good livings.
I've never read about myself on a ballot. So aside from the fact that I really do think this and similar moves have taken something from homosexuals (whether or not it was lost long ago, or never there at all is another issue), I certainly wouldn't presume to say it's not a loss. Because I've never read about myself on a ballot, and had myself so clearly 'chastised' (for want of a different, less polite term)
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posted
katherina -- I see what you're saying, but I don't think it really qualifies.
Every time there is any vote, one side will always lose a future where they vote would have gone the other way. But from what Telp said, it's obvious that he isn't talking about something so general that it applies to every election.
Telp has one idea of how he wants social issues to go over the next 50 years. The majority of the voters in his state have a different direction they want things to go.
The only difference I see is that this affects him so personally, and I can certainly understand his frustration and anger.
posted
Qualifies as what? As a loss? There was a future that could have been, and now because of a vote and a majority of the people in the society in which he lives, cannot be.
Of course he's upset that it affects him personally - that's why he started the thread.
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posted
"Telp has one idea of how he wants social issues to go over the next 50 years. The majority of the voters in his state have a different direction they want things to go."
It's amazing how democracy can be used to justify any evil based on its popularity.
posted
porter, Say you're a women prior to 1920 who really wants to vote and believes that it is unjust that you are and that the social climate is changing in such a way that more people are coming around to your side of things. Then, during an election, your state and many other states pass laws that specifically say something like "The act of voting is defined as when a MAN votes. Any system that has women having anylike like a say in an election is illegal." would you think that something had been taken away from you? The de facto situation may not have actually changed, but I think that this takes away dignity and potential. What has telp lost? Maybe the hope that he'd be treated as an equal human being?
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posted
It is kicking him when he's down. Start another thread to argue about the statements - we owe it to a member of Hatrack to have a clear thread to be sad about something.
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