quote:What is a hatelisting? A hatelisting is the exact opposite of a fanlisting. It gathers together people all over the world who hate, or wish to speak against, a certain subject.
posted
I don't have any evidence. All I have are the testimonials of Mexican college students that told me about the television commecials and friends of theirs who had joined the American army and never been heard from again.
It's paranoiac and impossible to prove, but I will acknowledge that the stories exist and that it's something I'll never be able to find evidence of.
Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
People generally have bad connotations for hatelistings. But they're not so bad. Its just that when you feel horrible about a certain subject, you should speak out about it. it should be more of a "dislike" listing.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
A "Dear Lord that's the most awful thing I've heard today" listing would be acceptable. Feel free to add me to that.
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Annie, The picture of Mexico that my brother-in-law presented me with was something quite different from yours. He spent considerable time working in Durango and Chihuahua provinces at factories repairing furniture-making machinery.
When not working, he spent a considerable amount of time out and about, but always with people who worked in the factories. He was advised heavily to not travel alone.
He described how huge the gap was between the haves and the have-nots. It was immense. And very easy to see. I still remember him telling me about this parking lot that was surrounded by chain-link fencing with barbed wire at the top. There were guard towers there as well. This was a grocery store.
He also talked about how you see armed soldiers in about the same frequency that you see police officers in the US. And that he was warned not to look them in the eyes. They explained to him that it was because the soldiers are often ordered to do the police's dirty work, but that the soldiers are draftees with family nearby. The soldiers, if you look into their eyes, think you are trying to identify them, find out who their families are, and that makes them very nervous.
But hey, it was only a couple of areas, quite a ways back from the US border and off the tourist path. And the situation in Ciudad Juarez looks horrible, that the Mexican authorities have done so little to end the situation.
It almost makes one wonder what connection the local police may have with the incidents or if they are so small-minded that they would rather more women be killed than receive outside help.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: Funny, isn't it, that the problems with crime increase as proximity to the United States increases?
I think that's more a function of population levels and/or density than proximity. Mexico City has a terribly high crime rate and is not very close to the US.
posted
What television commercials? Do you have sources where we can view them?
Without other evidence I'm disinclined to accept the testimonials of people about something so, to use your word, paranoiac.
Urban legends spread quickly and sound very credible.
I'm not saying that these are definitely urban legends, just that a lot more proof would need to be offered before I accept that the US military is systematically recruiting and killing Mexicans we never hear about. As the family member of a high-ranking Army officer, I take the implications here a bit personally. That's a serious accusation.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Thank you, Annie, for elucidating my thoughts on the matter so well.
PBS ran a documentary on the femicide around Juarez a couple years a go. From what I remember, the power elite of Juarez was implicated quite heavilly. As well, the maquiladoras around Juarez were not shown in a very favorable light.
It's ridiculous that this situation has continued for as long as it has.
Posts: 43 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Annie, you seem to paint a picture where Mexico is all good, except as it gets closer to the US, which you seem to portray as the source of all evil. I definitely think there are evils in how we use the third world for cheap labor, but I don't think it's quite as simplistic as you portray it to be. A very good friend of mine spent a couple of years trying to start a business in the Mexican countryside, away from Texas and California, and his stories certainly do not match yours. I don't think other countries are idyllic places except where the evil of the US seeps into them.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Am I correct in reading one of those articles as stating that during the same period in which 300+ women were killed, 1600+ men were also killed in the same area? Were the causes similar? What form is this violence against men taking? Is it rioting? Crime? Is it strange that more than five times as many men can die, and no one finds it at all remarkable ..?
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
For those of you that can understand spanish and get Azteca America in their TV programming, there is a mini-series that started airing yesterday at 8:00 PM pacific. I live at the San Diego area, and w/out cable, get it at channel 41. The series is rather strong for the young ones and discretion is advised. The actors are very good and the scenes shown are very strong. They talk about the facts frequently and it is overall a very good production. Its called "Tan Infinito Como El Desierto" or "As Endless(Infinite) as the Desert". I recommend it to all Hatrackers. I might post summaries of the episodes for those that cannot watch it.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I don't think the article is acurate when it comes to the men thingy. Did it state since when these men have been killed? Was it murder?
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
My little piece of writing back there was overly emotional and simplistic. Sorry - I'm not very coherent today and shouldn't be phrasing empassioned arguments.
I still generally think that America ruins the world, but that's too vague to put into essay form just yet. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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posted
A friend of mine stated that the reason USA is so rich and other countries so poor is because we are "hogging" all the world's resources.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Well, that's actually pretty accurate (at least, for those resources that can be hogged).
That is, we're using far, far more than could be used by a country our size were they distributed even vaguely equally.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
Okay I didn't have time to respond to this earlier today, so here goes.
First, I am somewhat familiar with the killings along the border. It's not just in the area between Cd. JuƔrez and El Paso, either. It's spread along the entire border although it is most pronounced near the large border cities. I believe there are several researchers at University of Texas - El Paso investigating the entire phenomenon. Also, SeƱorita Extraviada is supposed to be a very good documentary about the murders. Unfortunately, I still have yet to see it.
As to Mexico and how dangerous it is, I've got to say that I agree with Annie about much of it. The most dangerous areas are the border and Mexico City. The border is certainly not typical of Mexico and many Mexicans don't necessarily think about it as part of Mexico - it's the frontera also many will say they're from the border before they'll say they're Mexican.
In regards to Sopwith's friend and his experiences in Durango and Chihuahua, Durango is one of the most dangerous non-border areas in Mexico. It's a state with one of the highest rates of migration because there are almost no economic opportunities. As to Chihuahua, I'm only familiar with the situation along the border, particularly in Cd. JuƔrez, and as already stated, the border's not a particularly safe place. So I'm not really surprised that his experiences weren't the best.
Other than a few areas, I think Mexico is generally a fairly safe place. Last summer, I traveled through Central Mexico by myself and other than an unexpected marriage proposal (taxi driver - less than five minutes after I got in the car), had absolutely no problems. The people were all very friendly and I didn't think it was as dirty as many make it out to be.
As to whether or not the US is to blame for Mexico's (or other countries' problems), I think the US and other developed countries can definitely cause more harm than good. But Mexico cannot be exonerated of the blame for many of its problems.
Finally, the issue of the US recruiting immigrants with promises of citizenship. I've also heard this a lot, but mostly in a historical context. However, it looks like the recruitment issue has been blown out of proportion. This site indicates that the US during war times has implemented programs that accelarate the naturalization process for green card holders. I can imagine that some immigrants would join the military because of the accelerated process but I don't think I would say that the US gov't promises citizenship for military service. It does bother me, however, that recruiters have apparently crossed the border into Mexico to attract recruits.
I think that covers everything and hopefully it's coherent.
posted
Well, this is it. I've I started the episode summaries on the series I talked about earlier. I just saw the second episode, and well, it was a very strong thing. A friend of mine said that she even cried after she saw the first episode. Chapter One I didn't get to see the very opening of it, I was working on compy here, so I missed about the first five minutes(which my mother rec'd), but turns out that there is this reporter played by Ana Serradilla that was arriving home at Mexico City, and started talking to her nana about this job her boyfriend was getting her at NYC. I think the scene fades here and it turns to the roommate of some woman in her early twenties that had just disappeared. The roommate was very worried about what was going on and stuff, so after calling as many people as she could to try and find her, she finally calls the mother, who happens to be the reporter's nana. The nana gets the phone and is delighted to hear about the roommate, she asks about her daughter, and thats when she is told everything. Her daughter had not come home since last night, and her boyfriend had gone as well. The nana becomes very upset about this and starts telling the reporter that she's off to C. Juarez. The reporter agrees and since she saw her nana so agitated, she goes with her too. The two women arrive in this ramshackle neighborhood with no pavement, a whole bunch of garbage all over the place and of course, the mattress wire fences. They start asking around to find out where the nana's daughter lives at since they do not know the neighborhood. People just back away saying that they do not know who they are talking about. In the distance, the camera focuses on a group of women talking about how this is the first one to be taken in their neighborhood and how they had never really felt it until it happened to someone they knew. One of them says that she had known four from the previous missing ones, and that only two had appeared, and "dead of course". The other woman tells her to hush and respect the dead. Thats when the reporter and the nana come by and ask them. There was a boy nearby apperantly the son of one of the women, and murmurs something like "The dead one?" after they mention the girl's name. The boys mother covers his mouth and tells him to shut up. Thats when the women tell the rep. where the girl lives at. They finally do get there and the nana is very shaken because of what she knows could've happened to her daughter. So the rep. gets a call right there and its her boyfriend. She got the job at NYC and he really wants her to go. But then, she tells him that she is thinking about staying there to be with her nana until her daughter is found. THe guy gets really angry, and starts telling her that he doesnt want her there because he isn't comefortable knowing that she could be in danger. Then the rep. starts thinking more about it, but wouldn't be dissuaded from leaving after the roommate walks in the kitchen where the rep. was arguing with the boyfriend, and eventually the rep. decides to stay in Juarez and start to do something about it. The three women go to the police and try to open up a case. How ever, the cop is completly aloof and tells them that they cannot report her missing until after 72hrs have passed. When they tell him that she hadn't come home since her turn at the maquiladora last night and that her boyfriend(the missing girl's) Valerio, had gone to look for her when she had not shone up on time home. Turns out that Valerio never came back, and they had both disappeared. As soon as the "officer" heard that they both had not turned up, he just lifts up from his chair and pleasantly tell the women that the case was solved. (I was so ready to get a double barrel right then and there) Accoding to his little pea brain reasoning, the couple had eloped. All three women had WTF? looks on their faces and demanded that their concerns be listened to. The guy just tells them the same thing about how they had to wait for 72hrs and tells them to leave. Extremely angry, they leave. In the next scene, they come across the offices of an institute that was trying to raise awareness on the murders. They enter the place and they see pictures of the bodies that had and hadn't been identified, posted on what looked like room seperators. The reporter started reading some of them, and was aghast with what she saw (the one that shocked me the most was the picture of a twelve year old that had been strangled, raped, tortured, and mutilated). After the rep. saw all this, she grew very upset, and talked to the woman in charge of the place. In the background, you can hear another woman dictating the names, ages and conditions in which the bodies of even more women were found. The nana gets rather shaken about what she is seeing, and starts to tell the rep that her daughter isn't among these women, (this was a very sad scene mind you). The rep. goes to the cop's office again and demands to know why the man had never told her that so many women had been killed or where missing. So many were gone, enough to make them realize that if a girl was gone for one minute, her life was endangered. The guy said that those that were killed were only the type that liked to "play around with men", "liked to wear kinky clothing" and "led a double life" (let me at him, let me at him!!! *pause here as I count to ten*). The rep. was enraged, and she just told they guy to stop doing what he was doing and start doing his job. The guy just dismissed her, and still angry, she went to investigate on her own. She went to the maquiladora where the missing girl and her roommate worked, and talked to the manager. He said that he hadn't seen anything at all, (he's saying these things while there is a flash back scene. He is standing by the window where he saw the girl being kidnapped, *little squirt! Be a man and tell her!) In the scene, you can see the girl walking fast headed home, when a black car just comes by and these men whose faces you cannot see, just run off with her. As soon as the car had appeared, so had the boyfriend, but the car got to the girl first, and the boyfriend, Valerio, just stares in disbelief behind a tree, as his girlfriend is taken away. (*sigh* Half-way till I finish the first episode!)
This is where I stop today, it was 1000PM PST when I wrote this, and I need to go to sleep already... I'll continue posting these summaries during the week, I hope you like what I am writing, but most important, I hope you realize that something must be done about these things. As Hatrackers, we might not be able to do much, but if there is one thing we can do, raise awareness, we must not resist doing that which we can do. Oh, and that even when I use little sarcastic remarks and stuff, I am very serious about his topic. Happy Hatracking. -Altariel of Dorthonion
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Alt -- I just wanted you to know I find this thread interesting, and have been reading it, even if I have nothing relevant to post here. I had heard nothing about any of this until here.
posted
Thats why we need to let people know! I asked my friends yesterday about all this, and to my surprise, only one of them knew. She is a mexican girl like me, which disappoints me in a sense because I wish it wasn't only us who knew. I'm so glad more people know now.
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I'm working on the listing already. All I need now are pictures to make a decent layout and stuff. Has anyone found any good pictures I can use? Maybe brusherize?
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
After just having seen the third episode, I am even more passionate about letting as many people know about this. I am sick with what I saw on this third episode, I even cried out in rage at not being able to help these women after what I had just seen. But first of all, let me start where I left off yesterday.
After the manager keeps quiet, the rep. asks him about the photographers that had been coming to take pictures of the women(I think it was for a so-called newspaper *my ass!*) that work at the maquiladora. He did confirm that they came, but the rep. asked him if he had any names. The guy told her that they never gave him any, and the rep. was shocked. "How in the world do you know if they were real photographers if they never even showed you any I.D.? For all we know, they could be taking pictures of their next target!!!!!!!" she said. The guy just told her meekly that "he had to get by". (My mom was like "Le dieron mordida", or they gave him a bite, in other words bribed him. I got so mad.) The rep. just left the place and then the scene switches to a gardener(played by Luis Felipe Tovar, a VERY good actor) in which he was tending to a garden in a rich man's house. The rich man was having breakfast in his patio with his wife, who was reading a newspaper. She tells him about the murders and how so many women had disappeared. The man just tells her that the girls themselves asked for it when they decided to "go around being indecent". The woman told him that it was still a very horrible thing, but the man starts to get ticked off telling her that the newspapers were only exaggerating things to sell more copies, and how she was ruining his breakfast. The woman, who appeared to be, and later on proves, that she is very weak minded, the kind that live in their own little wonderland and never really matured; just dissmisses the subject telling her husband that its "ok honey, just don't get mad"(F***ing AIRHEAD!!!!). The door bell is rung and the gardener get the door. Its his wife and daughter, Flor. Flor comes and tells him that her graduation is coming nearer and she will need to buy new shoes. The dad is all like "sorry dear, but you know I only get paid till the end of the day" "But Dad! The store is closed by the time you get back!" "Well guess what my little Flower, they have just paid me, guess this is your lucky day( )." Flor got all happy and then she left with her mother. The gardener got back to his job and informed the rich people that it had only been his family. Switch scenes. Now we get a look at Flor and her mother when they are arriving. Flor goes to her mother, who had started to prepare lunch, and asks her permission to go with her friend and show her new shoes to her. The mother strictly forbids her, telling her about whats been going on and how the disappearances had started in their area. Flor is mad at her mother, and goes to her room. There she gets the gorgeous idea of sneaking out . She just grabs her shoes and sneaks out on her mother, who didn't notice. On her way, the camera switches perspective, and it shows the first person view of a man hiding behind a tree, following Flor, who is skipping happily along (like Little Red Riding Hood), and then the perspective changes again and you see Flor from the front. Credits Roll.
Good, I just finished the first episode. The second one is a bit more graphic, but nothing compared the the one I just saw. I really hope you appreciate what I am writing, and most of all, I hope that you do not ignore this sitution, its been ignored too much. Please, as Hatrackers, spread the word, but most important, join the listing I'll be making soon. I think it will be online in about one or two weeks.
posted
What do you think of the layout? I just finished it right now, I'll put up the text and the english version asap. Look here.Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I like the layout, Alt. I have no idea what it says, but I thought the understated roses were appropos. I assume "mujeres" is murdered?
Posts: 2283 | Registered: Dec 2003
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posted
Also, I wanted you to know I was aware of this. They used it as part of the plot on "Profiler", a show I used to watch with my mom, a few years back, and I looked it up online and was shocked to find out all this information. I've been following it ever since. It's not only Mexican women who care.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Thank you. Its really encouraging to know that people out there care. I even had the courage to email OSC about it asking him to help by writing something so that less people ignore these things. As a Christian I was appalled that some of these women are killed for devil worshipping rituals. BTW, i'm working on the english version as we speak.
posted
I've uploaded the english version to the server, I'll start working on the tecky stuff like inlines and css tomorrow. English VersionPosts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
Its coming along. I was working on the php for the spanish version, I still need a little bit of time because I wasn't working on it during Thx giving break. I had too much things to do...
Posts: 3389 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
we had a presintation and film presented on campass about the murders. I was not able to go, but a lot of my friends did. THere is a patition on line, although i dont know how much good it will do...
Posts: 264 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
wow. I didn't see this thread until today, but I just wanted to say that it struck a chord with me. My social studies class has been studying genocides and mass killings around the world and this looks like more of the same thing.
quote: How many more women must be killed before some one will solve something?
That is the question isn't it? Based on the example of history, enough that it qualifies as genocide, and then more. From what I've read so far there has not been a single real prosicution for anyone who has committed genocide... it's sad, but apparently the world doesn't really care.
posted
It is very sad that there are so many genocides, and such a hands-off attitude toward them. For example, there are still people who say the Holocaust never happened. Turkey still refuses to admit that the Armenian genocide ever happened. Genocides going on today are routinely not reported in the US even when people have repeatedly tried to bring attention to them. (Check out Human Rights Watch if you don't know what I mean.)
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Permit me to point out that genocide wasn't even considered a crime in strictest legal terms until after WW2.
So if humanity is a little slow to bring laws into play that have only been in place for a generation and aren't invoked often enough to commonly accepted, the standard is a little shakey.
posted
I see that no one has floated out the theory, quite common around here on the border between Mexico and the US, that the deaths are partly the work of an American serial killer and perhaps copy cats.
BTW, Mexico is like most other struggling countries: full of beauty, wonderful people, lots of squalor, crime, and evil bastards, most of them in the upper strata of the government. Most of the country's economic woes stem from mismanagement and fraud at every level, but specifically from rateros like LĆ³pez-Portillo and Salinas de Gotari.
The endemic public practice of suborning police officers, not paying property taxes, squatting, "colgando" (connecting a cable to power lines to siphon electricity) and other practices of the people of Mexico only compound the problem, as they, as we say in Spanish "no tienen cara de quejarse" (have no moral authority to complain... i.e., they are complicit in the corruption).
Posts: 1144 | Registered: Feb 2001
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. She just grabs her shoes and sneaks out on her mother, who didn't notice. On her way, the camera switches perspective, and it shows the first person view of a man hiding behind a tree, following Flor, who is skipping happily along (like Little Red Riding Hood), and then the perspective changes again and you see Flor from the front. ![[Mad]](mad.gif)
