quote:O the greatness of the mercy of our God, the Holy One of Israel! For he delivereth his saints from that awful monster the devil, and death, and hell, and that lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.
I think it's interesting to note that Saints are people who but for the atonement of Christ, would be going to hell.
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quote: As has been said before, this moniker does not imply a state of greater worthiness or personal holiness, but that we are all striving to become better human beings.
Would it be appropriate to call me a saint, as I too am striving to become a better human being?
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I'd like to say yes, but the simple fact that holds me back from worship of any kind is that I'm not actually sure how holy God is. Does it count if I'm trying to be as holy as I can, regardless of what God may or may not be like?
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Part of the trick of being a "saint" is you can't ever say you are one, you can't assume you've arrived. Even the Prophet a few turns back, like in the 70's, said he still had to work every day to make sure he wasn't straying- that his testimony was like a moonbeam held in the hand.
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Well, Tom, since the word "saint" is something we choose to call ourselves (which, I might add, was dictated to us by the Lord through revelation,) I wouldn't have a problem if you wanted to call yourself a saint. We generally refer to one another as "Latter-day Saints," which I don't think would apply to you. Theb again, if you wanted to call yourself one, you have my blessing. Posts: 786 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Depends on where you get your idea of Holy, Tom. People are changeable. Do you have a standard of ethic that endures when you change? It's kind of a balance. We want to be compassionate without submerging our reason in the needs of another- like that pastor AJ mentioned on Belle's thread. But if your idea of Godly is based on your own heart, then you have the god of Star Trek V. The one Kirk talks about in the closing scene, not the one he blows up.
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A principle that I liked to re-iterate to my Sunday School class last year was that God isn't grading on the curve. You don't have to acheive traits 1 through 256 on the checklist before you die. What you do have to do is be better. The sinner has to be better and the most devout, pious Mother Theresa has to be better. This can be both comforting and infinitely challenging. Posts: 8504 | Registered: Aug 1999
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quote:Does it count if I'm trying to be as holy as I can, regardless of what God may or may not be like?
That makes me wonder, if I may ask a horribly personal question that you're welcome to politely decline to answer. If you're not sure about the existence/goodness of God, can you believe that there are things that are holy? Is it that there is holiness and you're not sure if God measures up to it, or is that when a God exists that is not holy, then nothing can be?
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What's wrong with that? It's based on a pretty good scripture.
I guess Brian is right that we are to call ourselves saints. But the trouble comes where one might say, "I'm a saint, therefore what I choose to do is saintly." This is kind of the thinking that keeps pyramid schemes alive and well in populations of the Saints.
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"Is it that there is holiness and you're not sure if God measures up to it, or is that when a God exists that is not holy, then nothing can be?"
It's the former. I believe quite strongly in an objective standard of goodness, but do not necessarily believe that a god has to meet that standard. He does, however, have to meet that standard to deserve my worship.
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"I guess Brian is right that we are to call ourselves saints."
More importantly, do you call other people saints? And if you do -- and I'm pretty sure you do -- do you ever call non-Mormons saints, or is there the assumption that non-Mormons are not trying as hard to be saintly?
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*nods* Then it makes sense to call yourself a saint if you'd like, if you're striving for holiness (sanctification) as you understand it.
If you would allow me another personal question, if it doesn't come from God, from where do you get your understanding of holiness? I can see reasoning out what is good, but holy seems to be of the divine, and by definition something that isn't found in human beings.
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My mom called her father a saint after he passed away. He was not a church goer. I don't feel it's my place to call others saints. Though I do have an idea of saintly behavior, I guess. I tend to think of people who do very good things within the church as doing good that is expected. But people who do good things for those who are not "like them" are doing good that is not expected, and that is usually in my opinion saintly. Like that lady who does "puppies behind bars." That rates as saintly in my book. At least from what I can see in the clip, which I'm sure was made by some marketing people. But I have no reason to doubt it.
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"If you would allow me another personal question, if it doesn't come from God, from where do you get your understanding of holiness?"
This is going to sound ridiculous, but the things I consider "holy" are those that I believe are self-evidently important and/or "sacred" to society and the self -- but which may not in fact be practical in the short term. In this way do I distinguish "holy" from "good," as I think most things which are "good" require rationality.
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quote: More importantly, do you call other people saints? And if you do -- and I'm pretty sure you do -- do you ever call non-Mormons saints, or is there the assumption that non-Mormons are not trying as hard to be saintly?
Not for someone trying to become "holy" on their own merits, because according to this particular lexicon a saint is not just someone trying to be holy, but a person who relies on Christ's atonement. The idea is that no matter how hard we try, we can not reach the state of purity required to return to God without Christ's atonement and our reliance on it.
I'm not sure I have ever heard of individual people referred to as "saints". When we refer to ourselves or members of the church, we might use the acronym "LDS", but I don't really give the "saint" part all that much thought, and I'm not sure if others do either. It's just handy to have a word that refers to members of this church-that-has-such-a-long-name. And "Mormon" seems too much like a misnomer to me and many others.
It is fairly common for someone to talk of "the saints" in reference to congregations of this church. And I think the term might be used sometimes we might be asked to evaluate our efforts to follow Christ, but I don't really hear it used individually in a specific way.
quote:More importantly, do you call other people saints? And if you do -- and I'm pretty sure you do -- do you ever call non-Mormons saints, or is there the assumption that non-Mormons are not trying as hard to be saintly?
It's hard to debate the usage of a word that has a double meaning. Mormons have adopted the word "saints" to refer to themselves, in part, because that word, on its own, denotes the high standard to which they hold themselves, and in that sense, it can easily apply to anyone, of any belief system.
But since Mormons have been using it specifically to refer to themselves for so many years, it might feel strange to refer to a non-Mormon as a saint. This isn't because Mormons think that non-Mormons somehow fail to measure up to the original definition of the word. But rather, it is because the word has now developed a secondary, common definition that refers only to members of the Church.
I do think it's possible for a group of people to use a complimentary term to refer to themselves, without automatically insinuating that non-members lack the trait implied by the term.
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"Saints" has a special meaning to me as when there is harmony and synergy among a group who by themselves would be quite ordinary. I think people can only be "saints" when acting as a group, being one in a greater purpose.
I used to think the title of the book Saints should have stayed A woman of destiny but then I came to have this feeling for "Zion" which is similar to the feeling of "saints" that I am speaking of. It goes back to the definition of "saintly" that I gave before, where you are giving your all to something that isn't about you.
[ January 10, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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