quote:I take issue with all of the side-ways hedonism, even when it comes in the guise of misunderstood free will because all of it undermines a sense of responsibility beyond one's own pleasure.
Is this directed at the "men are that they might have joy"?
The meaning of that statement in the context of this discussion that we are that we might have free will, not just to choose for ourselves but to act and not be acted upon.
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Irami, I think perhaps we may agree. Do you not think? Pursuing money, status, power, fame, and stuff like that doesn't really bring joy in the end. Those things all end up being pretty empty once you achieve them. True joy comes in other ways. Yet I do believe the point of existence is for us to discover these ways and gain and give the joy they bring.
quote: Life has no "why" to it, but human beings have evolved to crave reason and purpose, so it is necessary to choose a purpose in order to feel psychologically satisfied... hence my statement that the purpose of life is whatever you decide it is.
Out of curiosity, and as a philosophical question, why would humans evolve a deep, abiding longing for purpose in their lives? Any thoughts?
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Irami, because of the way the word "joy" is used in the scriptures, and most particularly the way it is used in this chapter, I think Mormons have developed a more specific meaning of the word for our "group lexicon" that is different than they way it is commonly used. The scripture specifically says that a person cannot know joy if they don't know misery. It says that Adam and Eve in their garden paradise were incapable of joy.
Obviously, the way it is used in these scriptues denotes a very different meaning from "pleasure". It seems to be a bittersweet mixture of both pleasure and sorrow, perhaps like the rich and complex feelings a parent has over their children in their struggles and successes.
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beverly, the simplest answer is that they didn't. Humans evolved an ability for forming very complex, abstract thoughts, and a very arguable natural consequence (or instigator, it doesn't really matter in this case) of that ability is a "thirst" for new and interesting things, which would be pretty much what you stated.
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Some might say it is the "primate" in us. The curiosity. Was it Nevin's aliens that kept referring to us as intelligent monkeys?
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Judging from the majority of this thread, I'd have to say the purpose of life is to question and ponder the purpose of life.
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quote:Judging from the majority of this thread, I'd have to say the purpose of life is to question and ponder the purpose of life.
You are right, in a sense. Questioning appropriate questions may not lead to a direct answer, but it will shed light on more trivial matters, seperating what is important from what is irrelevant.
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quote: The purpose of life was so that millions of years of evolution could finally, through trial and error and patient testing, produce the finest of all human creations: me.
Or possibly Ralphie's rack. Theologies differ.
I'm a staunch ChrisBridgestian, until the day I die.
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beverly, what I've come to understand pondering this thread is that joy is not in the action. Joy is in having made the choice to do the action with one's free will.
Free will is only possible with the possibility of sin, which is only possible with the Savior, which is only possible with the Fall.
That is to say, I think it is possible to have joy without having sorrows and pain and so forth. I know people whose whole life has seemed rosy and trouble free, but I don't judge them as incapable of joy or faith or charity.
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Woohoo!!! Thanks JH for this thread! I remember there was a thread like this a while ago but I was too busy to post in it, so I'm glad I have the opportunity to do it now.
First of all, I don't believe there's a God, destiny or purpose to this Universe. So while I'm not going to search for what my True purpose in life is (there isn't any), I'll gladly set myself goals, whether short-time or long-time ones.
My life-time goal is to become content with who I am. That doesn't mean I'd be at my best, 'cause I think there's always room for better. Rather it means that all the decision I'd make at a certain point in my life should be according to the knowledge I posses at that moment. Whether something proves good or bad in the long run is a totally different thing. I'm very far away from my goal now, still doing things out of laziness, because I'm sad / mad / plain dumb, but hey, if I'd attend my goal this early in my life what fun would there be left for the rest of it?!
quote: why would humans evolve a deep, abiding longing for purpose in their lives?
Too much time on our hands! Seriously speaking, I think it's our desire to define and cathegorize everything. We defined "purpose", now we can't see a life without purpose when everything in life has its little purpose. It's too much for our self-centered personalities! "What, you mean there's no purpose to my life?! Oh, that's shocking! No way, there must be a purpose!" In my opinion this goes very well together with the creation of religions: we created them in order to feel, if not important, at least part of something important. And how can you be important if your life is just a blink in the lifetime of the Universe?! Truth is - for me, at least - that our lifes are important only to us and to some people we're influencing. Like with waves, the farther you go from the originating point, the less energy the wave has = the less important our influence is on "distant" people.
quote: ... we call doctors, students, and fathers who neglect their responsibilities bad doctors, students, and fathers.
Bad or good don't really mean that much to me anymore. "Bad doctor" would be someone who doesn't perform very well as a doctor, but his (her) quality as a man (woman) isn't defined only by that, is it? Also a "good doctor" can have his moments of blindess and mistreat someone. Is he a "bad doctor" for that person? Yes. In general? How many mistreatments does it take to be labeled a bad doctor?! Again, we give the definitions that suit us most: if he treated me bad he's a bad doctor no matter how many other people say he's good.
I think most of the people here read the Dune series - if not, read them now!! The Bene Gesserit in those books were the first group to actually have a long-time plan, and not only for themselves, but for others too! How many of you have plans for your "next generation"? How about for the whole "next generation"? I think nowadays political leaders have the biggest power to think for the future, but I also think that most if not all of them tend to plan for the duration of their presidency - and probably for the next elections if they can still candidate. Is it even worth it to think further ahead?! I think yes, especially now when we have such a power over our environment and our lives in general. And I also think there's something to the thought that we become more and more comfortable with our lives and we're less and less likely to "naturally" evolve. In this case I think the only way not to stagnate and die of boredom is to take evolution in our own hands. And by evolution I don't mean growing a third hand in order to type faster or growing a nice pair of wings - though that would be really, really awesome, wouldn't it? - but rather about teaching ourselves how to use more of our bodies' abilities, wether mental or physical.
quote: Our rights and decisions allow us ...
I think that "rights" are a very human concept, and an almost useless one too. We talk about guaranteeing certain rights but even when those rights CAN be guarded we don't do it and instead go on with our own business. These rights are a very nice idea, but unfortunately we are waaay far from it right now and don't seem to work very hard in that direction. Oh well, maybe the generations to come will do more. Or they'll just stay in front of the 3D TV and eat new highly nutritious chips made in fully automated factories...
So anyone want to start a Bene Gesserit with me? You know, to try to get humanity on the right track? Subscriptions cost 100 USD and shall be sent to me to the address bene.gesserit@chapterhouse.com. And I volunteer for the role of leader of the guild too, I wouldn't want to burden anybody with so much responsability! Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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quote: Final Fantasy (the movie) says we are all a little piece of Gaia's spirit manifest in the flesh, seeking understanding through experience. I thought that was interesting.
I haven't notice that, but it's the current idea i have about the purpose of the life. I have a Catholic education and i followed the catholic practice until the age of 13. After my 13th birthday, I would have a move back about what i believe.
I interested me about others religions and believes. And at the age of 20, I began to think we are all a member of something. We can call that "Spirit" or "God". And the purpose of the our lifes is to make experiences. When we die, maybe we reinteger this to collect the experiences.
I know that my thought is not achieve and i must work on this idea longer. The thought about the purpose of the life have many way. I choose this way. But i know i may choose a wrong one.
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Choobak, in my opinion you sum up pretty well WHY we want to believe in the existence of something greater than us:
quote: And at the age of 20, I began to think we are all [a] members of something. We can call that "Spirit" or "God". And the purpose of [the] our lifes is to make experiences. When we die, maybe we reinteger this to collect the experiences.
I'd like to believe that, but I'm quite skeptical by nature. I've also seen this idea in many SF books and it sounds reasonable IF there would be a purpose to life or to this Universe.
quote: But i know i may choose a wrong one.
"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt." - Bertrand Russell
You're on the right path! Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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As Mr Card Wrote in the children of spirit, Human can produce lot of idea which 80% are wrong, but the 20% ones survive and permit to build other ideas.
That one point i like in his work. And Why i like his novels.
quote:but we call doctors, students, and father who neglect their responsibilities bad doctors, students, and fathers
Sure, but where this breaks down (as far as making any sorts of sweeping statements about the specifics of responsibilities, even given that the nearly universal meme of "responsibility" has diffused itself throughout human society as part and parcel of human purpose) is that each societal group tends to define responsibilities (or carve up responsibilities) in different ways: the dharma of the Brahmana caste of Hindu society may overlap with what Catholic Mexicans believe are the responsibilities of their priests, but both differ wildly from what the Comanche bands insisted were the responsibilities of powerful puhakatu (power-possessors, the most important of which Americans sadly have called "medicine men").
So, while it may seem useful to say that "living up to one's responsibilities" is the purpose of life, it still brings us back to the lack of a transcendental definition or description of those responsibilities.
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David Bowles: That's true, I haven't even thought of that when I gave my own answer. I guess I'm just not international enough yet! Posts: 4519 | Registered: Sep 2003
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Yeah (not to knock you or anyone else), that's our number-one problem when making sweeping statements about humans: cultural myopia. I do think, however, that we can recognize universals that give atheists and others constructing their own morality a basis from which to work.
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Trisha: I have never thought of it that way. Of course, my feelings about this come in part from the strong influence "My Turn on Earth" had on my as a child. The song "Opposition" spoke to me. It just "rang true". No life is without pain, though some certainly have more than others.
I don't think that our lives have to be tragic for us to know joy, it is more about the opposition that comes naturally to mortal life. On the contrary, I think many lives on this planet have been so tragic that the person has not had much, if any, joy at all. But of course, when one believes that this life is not the end, there is certainly the capacity for joy after death.
As for the free will, it is arguable that Adam and Eve didn't yet have free will because they were not yet in a state of opposition--experiencing only the good and sweet. But they were enticed by the tree and faced temptation before that point. So in my mind, they had free will already. What they lacked was the understanding that comes through experience. And I believe that is where joy comes from also.
Perhaps our perspectives on this are more similar than dissimilar.
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Haven't read the whole thread (bad Megan!), but I can tell you that the question to which the answer was 42 (i.e., the ultimate question of life, the universe, and everything), was:
What is 9 times 7?
(although, it might have been, "what is 7 times nine?" now that I think of it).
But pardon me, I was born to speak all mirth and no matter.
Well, don't you worry about it! I'm very much aware of my cultural myopia. I've tried to correct it since coming to France and starting posting on Hatrack, but I'm still far away from "the perfect cultural gentleman"... Even though I had a glimpse of other European cultures, of the American one, and an even smaller one about the Morrocan culture I still find utterly strange and different others like the Chinese, Japannese, Indian, etc. I know there's really no easy way out of this, just patient learning through direct interaction with the other cultures.
Edit: This is why I said some time ago in another thread that I don't think we're mature enough to form a world-state just yet.
posted
No, no, it wasn't. That is the flawed version of the original question that was left imprinted in Arthur's brain; it is almost certainly not the actual question, since the universe did not end after it was discovered.
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bev- I'm not familiar with that play. I saw it once but I only remember the flashlight song. I understand the general idea of opposition. One interesting idea I read was that opposition will not cease after death. It will be much easier to withstand the kind of temptation we experience here due to the removal of doubt, but unless we cease to have free will, won't there still be opposition?
P.S. I think my point is that I'm less willing to concede that tribulations come from God than the average Mormon. Looking over the Book of Mormon Index, tribulations never come directly from God, but doing his will may cause one to pass through them. Also looking at James 1, particularly versus 7,8 and 13, it seems that there is a very fine line in the attitude of enduring trials. We can't do it with the expectation of reward.
[ January 12, 2005, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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quote: bev- I'm not familiar with that play. I saw it once but I only remember the flashlight song. I understand the general idea of opposition.
I was "raised on" My Turn on Earth and Saturday's Warrior--for better or worse. The songs did shape my thinking in a lot of ways--the things that appealed to me or made sense to me.
quote:One interesting idea I read was that opposition will not cease after death. It will be much easier to withstand the kind of temptation we experience here due to the removal of doubt, but unless we cease to have free will, won't there still be opposition?
Actually, I look at it about the opposite. I think there will be much less opposition after death, but there will still be doubt. Obviously there will be the fact that we still exist after our mortal frame is crumbling in the ground, and that will effect things, but I think things will still be far from obvious. Just my own personal opinion. And I think one of the reasons it will be harder to overcome our weaknesses there is the lack of natural opposition that comes with not having a mortal body. I think opposition that will exist then will come in the form of "hell", which I believe to be an inner state of mind more than anything else.
quote:P.S. I think my point is that I'm less willing to concede that tribulations come from God than the average Mormon.
I don't think tribulations necessarily come from God either. I think they happen because they happen. I think God is more interested in how we will deal with what comes than orchistrating life to be difficult for us. I believe God intervenes (though not always) when His children exercise faith, but rarely, if ever, at any other time.
posted
(oops, I edite above) But we will feel for anyone who does not obtain salvation similarly to to how we feel for those who perish physically in this life. One example of how opposition will be different.
(Sorry folks if we are getting too specifically Mormony for you. But I feel the existence of Satan is as salient as the existence of God. If you don't believe in Satan, there really isn't much need to believe in God.)
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I do think it's true that Satan merely fills a role that God allows to exists. But that is like saying Bush is accountable for what Cheney does. In a political sense, perhaps, but Cheney has free will. This is just an analogy.
[ January 12, 2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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I think that essentially, that is they thing everything comes back to, Choobak: Good and Evil, Dark and Light, God and Satan, Ying and Yang, Individual and Community, Chaos and Order, Hell and Heaven, Passion and Reason (I could go on...) The duality of the human race is undeniable.
And, in the end, although all of us would like to be on the side of the light and the God and the Heaven, we all end up with some sort of balance.
EDIT: I'm sure you're right, ScottR. But that is sort of the point- somethings are in opposition, some go together, but again, half way is a good place to be.
posted
Yang is building and active forces. Pure Yang is destructive and unstable. Pure ying is like absolute zero. Most elements are considered some blend of the two.
Interestingly, on the classic ba gua they are not directly opposite each other though increasingly people who present images of the ba gua get that wrong. That is because if you visualize the tai chi thingy, pure yang is the white ahead of the black dot while pure yin is the black trailing the white dot. I thought that was so frequin cool when I first understood it.
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There are plenty of paradoxes in Christianity that reflect the yin and yang. To save your life you must lose it. To lead you must be the servant of all. To pass the gate of heaven you must humble (debase) yourself.
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"If you don't believe in Satan, there really isn't much need to believe in God."
I find this a really, really depressing worldview. How can you live like that without throwing yourself off a bridge?
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I realize a lot of churches don't believe in Satan. Marianne Williamson and a lot of modern spiritualists teach against a belief in Satan.
The thing about Satan is we don't believe he has cosmic powers that exceed our own, though he does have access to more information and has generally been around longer. Some religions feel he has the special power of angels but we read "created a little lower than the angels" differently.
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Going with my train of thought (that I'm developing now as we speak) from above. I would see Satan as being an inextricable part of the God, should you believe in a God or Gods. Satan is just a natural pairing for God.
posted
Teshi, I can see your point. You'll like this: I was thinking about the evil ring in LOTR and what does it do? Conceal the wearer. So it's very relevant to the issue of Satan's invisibility in our modern worlds.
This is giving me new insights into all those bible stories where one son goes wrong. Especially Abraham. We focus on the pain of him almost having to sacrifice Isaac. But it seems like having to cast out Ishmael would have been painful as well.
[ January 12, 2005, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Trisha the Severe Hottie ]
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quote: "If you don't believe in Satan, there really isn't much need to believe in God."
I find this a really, really depressing worldview. How can you live like that without throwing yourself off a bridge?
I find it not only depressing, but contrary to what Christianity has taught for the last 2000 years. Christianity, in its classical form, is NOT a dualistic religion, Satan and God are NOT equal and opposing forces.
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I've said in several different ways that they are not equal. THough I guess agreeing with the yin yang idea might imply that. But if there is no evil, why would God be necessary? I don't believe in God because he is necessary. I just think the Age of reason banished Satan first, and God naturally followed.
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*nod* But your first question also presumes that evil requires a physical embodiment in order to exist. Why?
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Here's an interesting passage from the Book of Mormon that illustrates LDS beliefs about God and Satan, good and evil.
******* Moroni 7:12-17
12 Wherefore, all things which are good cometh of God; and that which is evil cometh of the devil; for the devil is an enemy unto God, and fighteth against him continually, and inviteth and enticeth to sin, and to do that which is evil continually.
13 But behold, that which is of God inviteth and enticeth to do good continually; wherefore, every thing which inviteth and enticeth to do good, and to love God, and to serve him, is inspired of God.
14 Wherefore, take heed, my beloved brethren, that ye do not judge that which is evil to be of God, or that which is good and of God to be of the devil.
15 For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night.
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.
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Technically Satan doesn't have a body (in this worldview). He doesn't think he is bad. He thinks God is conceited and is just trying to persuade everyone of that. The thing Satan doesn't get is that if he had his way, he would be running things instead of God. So in my opinion his hatred is personal and not principle driven.
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Evil is simply disobedience of God. Like a shadow is just the absence of light. Darkness doesn't need embodiment like the light does.
The angels had one opportunity to choose or reject God. 1/3 of them, Satan included, chose to reject God. Adam and Eve likewise had one opportunity, when the serpent tempted them at the tree. They chose to reject Him, and that's where the world is stuck today.
Personally I love philosophy, but I find it rather tiresome to read this topic. Lots of speculation and uncertainty. I personally know the truth that God created us so that He might love us, and we are meant to return the same. I can't imagine living without that knowledge permeating my existence.
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I don't know, that's kind of the way the world runs, isn't it? You don't turn on a lamp to make darkness, but you can't have light without a source.
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