posted
I got an earful from my grandma one day for dissing the art and science of pedagogy. She was deeply offended that I thought I could go get a teaching job with my linguistics degree when people spend their entire undergrad just learning how to teach. That is why I find the idea of peer teaching dubious. There is apparently more to trasmittting information to another than simply having the information to begin with.
If gifted kids didn't have special learning needs, we could just have them keep skipping grades until they aren't bored anymore. My in-laws had most if not all of their children skip a grade. I never understood how skipping just one grade was supposed to cure boredom, but I guess it kind of worked as a magic feather (or acheivement placebo) where instead of being content to bump along the bottom of the grade, they felt challenged to prove themselves.
edit:
If they don't want bible in the school, they have to lose the good as well as the bad Irami.
quote:Teaching kids that they are their brother's keeper is something I think we should endorse.
Sure it is. But part of teaching kids they are their brother's keeper involves teaching them that when their misbehavior effects others, the others will not be the ones to bear the cost.
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posted
Irami, I've done this. I tried for years to tutor my peers in math. In grade eight, my teacher had me try to explain how I got a math solution to the calss. I did, but all I got was blank stares. And this has been the pattern (before and) since. I tried, I tried so hard, to explain how I was arriving at the answers I was. It all made such crystal clear sense to me.
I had to give up. I had to give up tutoring, nto for my sake, but for the sake of the poor souls who got stuck with me as a tutor. it wasn't fair to them. It didn't work. It would just make most people frustrated, even my best friend, who is very bright herself. Eventually, she told me to stop trying, that I would never be a good tutor in maths or sciences. I eventually came to the conclusion that my brain just works differently. It isn't a matter of willingness, even. It just. did. not. work. There's nothign I can do about it. I can't stop thinking, and I can't expect people to think the same way as me. It isn't fair to either of us.
And that is with peers who wanted to learn, wanted me to explain. Asking a child to tutor someone who calls her names and hits her with a hockey stick when the teacher isn't paying attention isn't fair. It's not fair. It hurts the child, it makes her not want to be in school, not want to learn. There's only so much you can ask a child to take. There's a limit.
Yes, there's a certain amount of personal bitterness here.
Teaching fairness and responsibility is a good thing. Yet it's been my experience that it's the children like Belle's who already get this concept (as much as the age can). And then they are stuck with children who disrupt their learning, mock them, and coast along on the work that the one child does. Where is the fairness in that? What are we teaching the other children? That this is okay? It isn't. It can't be.
I'm so sorry, I have a lot more to say, but too many bad memories are popping up in my mind and it's making it difficult to write.
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posted
Okay, having now read most if not quite all of the comments in this thread, I'm going to weigh in again.
In school, I had the same things happen to me as most of you did - particularly in that I was often asked to explain things to the rest of the class or to people who didn't pick it up as quick as I did. At first, I was pretty hopeless at this for exactly the reason that Belle suggested - I knew things without knowing how or without really understanding why others didn't get it. However, I did find that when I was "teaching" others, even at that age, it helped me understand the concept better, and I got better and better at explaining things to the point where in the later part of my secondary school years most of my breaks were spent doing just that in more or less formalised ways. Perhaps unsurprising that I wound up being a teacher - though at the time it was the last thing I wanted to do. So I think that peer teaching can be a really great learning experience, but it should be one that's available to all the students. You should see the beaming smiles on the faces of my "lower-ability" students when I pretend not to know something and get them to "teach" me, or when they get to explain things to each other! At the same time, as a teacher you have to be willing to teach kids how to do that properly and then manage the process so you don't get animosity between the kids.
On this topic, I have a student in my year 10 class (9th grade?) who is already in the top set but is far and away brighter than everyone else. She's as shy as anything and loathes being singled out, but is quite well liked by the other group, and I think they enjoy having her in the class and getting the more informed and sensitive input that she can provide. But I know she's not challenged and she's getting bored, and I'm not quite sure how to make sure that she is challenged and her learning is extended without singling her out. At the moment, I'm just going for providing differentiated activities - eg "everyone must do this, if you finish that you should do this, and then as an extension you could do this" with the activities getting more in-depth and thought-provoking - and then everyone has the option of accessing the extension work, so it's not a case of "everyone do this, Camila you can do this instead." What else would you guys suggest?
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posted
"I'd say, asking them to explain the steps is asking them to think about the leaps they have taken, which is a exercise that properly belongs in education."
And while they're learning to explain how they know what they already know to people who don't know that yet, they're frustrating the people they're supposed to be helping and not learning anything new themselves.
Not everyone -- child or not -- is suited to teaching.
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Yes, really. Because if you say "well, we'll take the good and leave the bad" then it is only a matter of time before people keep justifying what is good and you end up with the whole bible back in schools. And that would apparently be bad.
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posted
I believe that a child's primary resonsibility is to learn not to teach. I understand that there is more than one type of thing to learn in school, and that there are things that can be learned by assisting a peer, but when that happens so often that it slows down that chils progress in the core subjects then I think it is a bad idea...both for the child teaching and for the child learning.
quote:It's a question of priorities.
I was one of the kids who use to get stuck in the groups of losers who wouldn't contrubute to projects, and I hated it. I basically had two choices...I could let them sit there and do nothing, or I could do it all myself. If I only did my part I would get a failing grade, and if I did all of it we would usually get at leasst a B.
I didn't care much about grades, as long as I passed, and I was even willing to do MORE thanmy sahre as long as everyone at least tried to help. But I was not going to fail and have to take a class over because some dumb ass was going to be lazy and not do his share.
So the other kids learned that they could be lazy and Rob would still do the work, and the group would not only pass but would excell, and I learned that I was screwed no matter what I did....so I stopped trying. I didn;t care, and I only did what I needed to do in order to pass. That way I wasn't forced to do everyones work for them. If I liked a topic I would always get an A, but I stopped trying at everything else because I didn't care.
Caring cost too much. Too much time, too much effort, just too much in general.
Mack, I was just like Hobbes in the classes I liked, and I had the same attitude YOU have about his behavior....who are YOU to hold me back? Why should I care about being too much of a bother, when all I wasnt to do is learn adn most of the other kids don't care to bother at all. I was always willing to help the others if they were at least trying, and some of my classmates would have me run study groups for them, adn I was glad to do it as long as they cared enough to try, but I was not about to let the other kids hold me back.
posted
Kwea, I think you hit the nail on the head as to why my kids, and others like them, would end up doing more than their fair share of work on group projects.
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posted
I understand that, but do/did you have that sense of entitlement? That you are inherently better and therefore can suck up all the resources and not feel bad about it at all? That the classtime is meant just for you?
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posted
Can I suck up all the classtime if no one else is going to? It's not an entitlement to do it, but it still could happen.
Of course, a lack of understanding as to what is socially appropriate is something a lot of "gifted" kids struggle with.
I guess peer tutoring should go both ways, where the "stupid" (to use Frimpong's preffered label) try to teach the "smart" kids how to not be so geeky. I think it would be about as effective.
I don't know if when Frimpong uses the word it is good or bad. It seems to mean both for you.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: Fine. Go conduct your experiments with your own children, then.
And that, my friends, is the sound of a big grown man taking his ball and going home.
Scott,
Not to mention taking out the Iliad, or just about any meaningful cultural narratives, you know, the kind of stories that help us make sense our lives and make moral judgments possible, and without which we be an impoverished people living in an affluent slum.
Ela,
quote:Kwea, I think you hit the nail on the head as to why my kids, and others like them, would end up doing more than their fair share of work on group projects.
I don't know if this has to be a problem. I'm also not sure that any project in elementary school is so important that we should be so eager to break our communal ties, for sake of a baking soda volcano or a mobile. I'm also not talking about set projects as much as correcting classwork and reading groups.
Kwea,
quote:I basically had two choices...I could let them sit there and do nothing, or I could do it all myself. If I only did my part I would get a failing grade, and if I did all of it we would usually get at least a B.
That sounds like a problem with the grading.
Mothertree,
Being stupid isn't a good or a bad thing, apparently it's an empirical fact, like being gifted, and as the parents of gifted children properly say that their children tested into gifted programs, my parents can say that their child is giftless. _____
quote: Kwea, I think you hit the nail on the head as to why my kids, and others like them, would end up doing more than their fair share of work on group projects.
I don't know if this has to be a problem. I'm also not sure that any project in elementary school is so important that we should be so eager to break our communal ties, for sake of a baking soda volcano or a mobile. I'm also not talking about set projects as much as correcting classwork and reading groups.
Irami, it was not only a problem in elementary school, but through middle and high school, as well. And I am also not talking about set projects such as correcting class work and reading groups. I am talking about things like science fair projects and other projects of that nature.
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quote: The philosophies really aren't that different - it's all about meeting a child's intellectual, social, and emotional needs.
If a child asks to be in a gifted class, wants to be in a gifted class, yet does not have the appropriate test scores, should the state let that child in the gifted class?
posted
I'm not worried about science fair projects or any other "important" projects, though once again, we open up a question of priorites and what's important.
posted
You say there is no value to stupid or gifted, but you seem very resentful toward anyone who doesn't identify themselves as stupid. (edit: Hope no one quoted that before I fixed it. Oh well.)
I never knew my IQ because my mom thought it would be bad for my self esteem. At least, that is how my sister interpretted the lack of information.
quote:And that, my friends, is the sound of a big grown man taking his ball and going home.
No, it's the sound of a man who refuses to let you make people feel guilty for not wanting their kids to be forced to limit themselves because of the voluntary actions of other children. It's also the sound of a man waiting for you to acknowledge that this responsibility you're always lecturing about goes both ways.
posted
I think we are talking past each other, here, Irami.
In the post you quoted, I was commenting on projects that students are assigned to do in a group, in which one or two students do the bulk of the work, while the others sit back and get the credit all the same. That included science fair projects, English projects, and others of that nature.
If you were not commenting on that, then why did you include my quote in your post?
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Your longer post made me want to shove your IQ up your nose.
Now, I know you. And I like you. I know you're a good guy. But your post just dripped with that superior sense of smug entitlement that causes people to want to beat up the "smart" kids. The I'm better than everyone else, you should cater to me, it's okay if I suck up all the academic resources available type of personality trait.
Did it now? I think you read my post exactly as if you already thought I felt superior, because the whole point was that it most certainly wasn't OK, that it cause problems, I wasn't describing exactly how smart I think I am, if I was I don't think you'd mistake it for dripping sense of superiority.
quote:I am beginning to suspect that maybe I am just a dumb jock. Supposedly I'm a smart kid. *shrug* I was in a gifted program. *shrug* I hated it. I hated school in general, but that's not what I want to talk about.
But what Hobbes said has bugged me since last night. If I had been next to him, I would've said, "Who the hell do you think you are?"
So, if I pissed folks off or hurt them by saying that, I apologize now. But I couldn't figure out a soft way to say it, and I didn't want to leave it unsaid, because it captured some of the heart of that chasm between "smart" kids and the rest of us.
Well for one, I don't recall anything that would suggest that the other kids were anything equivilent to "dumb", or for that matter, "jocks". The difference between me and the other kids in the class had nothing to do with IQ, and I certainly didn't say so, and wouldn't say so.
I admit, I'm not perfect, and I'm sure I did talk down to some of the people I had classes with in High School, and I do think I'm smarter than some of them, some of them are smarter than I am, and that's who I think I am Mack. And now I'm going to stop saying since I've probably already said things I'll regret.
posted
I've skipped from about 3/4 on page 2, but I really couldn't hold back.
[QUOTEexercise in humility to have the gifted kids work in the same group helping the stupid kids[/QUOTE]
Humility shouldn't be our goal in this. We should be teaching these kids, and every child, compassion and unselfishness. Humility is a side effect of that, I think, and is something to be learned as well but doesn't come from being assigned to teach "stupid" kids.
Frankly, any gift or talent is worthless in my eyes without those traits. I think 95% of our society's problems can be traced to selfish and prideful behavior.
And I don't think it is inappropriate to be giving opportunities to serve in school, even at the youngest ages. We just have to make it age and skill appropropriate.
In our school, the kids who can read well do tutor younger kids who are struggling. The 2 year age difference does much to prevent problems of feeling lesser than a peer, because it is a 'big kid' that is helping.
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Am I the only one that flat-out refused to "explain" everything to the people in the rest of the group that weren't too fond of me in the first place? I wasn't too happy to be stuck there at all. "I know the material, I'm checking out now, get back to me when something new happens."
Of course, that has a price - the grading system depended on it getting done. You can only tell everyone to fly a kite of you don't care about grades, and I figured that out very, very early. It still worked out.
They were good at things I that I wasn't, but no one was required to skip their own softball practice or flirting to help me get better at it.
quote:This was highschool and I had enough self confidence and personal ... something that escapes me.... that I didn't get in anyway maltreated by the other students, but most of them spent their time mad at me,
Hobbesy, I'll bet this still happens. You have an air of genial bon homie that hides just how incredibly principled and stubborn you are. In a world of lead or be led, your clear immunity to being handled WILL make some people resent you. I love that you're so stubborn and principled, because it means you're trustworthy and also that you're not going to do something stupid to hurt yourself while trying to please other people. I'd tell you to hold strong, but I doubt you need it, and I'd mention to remember to stay teachable, but I don't think you need that either. I will tell you that I like that about you, very much.
[ January 17, 2005, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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And I don't especially like Christians, white people, or men. The thing is, I like them fine, I just don't like them especially.
Dagonee,
quote:No, it's the sound of a man who refuses to let you make people feel guilty for not wanting their kids to be forced to limit themselves because of the voluntary actions of other children. It's also the sound of a man waiting for you to acknowledge that this responsibility you're always lecturing about goes both ways.
I think that more people should feel guilty. Of course it goes both ways, but we have to understand that stupid group's only distinction is that they are stupid, and part of being gifted comes with understand that responsibility that gift confers.
On a different problem, misbehaving kids need to be taught responsibility also, but it's the same lesson.
Civic responsibility is more important than arithmetic in public school education. The Matthew Shepards, and the Columbines, and the drug abuse, and drunk drivers do not happen when kids have a sense of self and civic responsibility.
Or we can content ourselves to raise society with David Cash's priorities. For the record, the man was a wonderful nuclear Engineer who has probably gone off to make a healthy sum designing a new and better brand of teflon and is considered by many people, in virtue of his degree and job, to be a success.
Ela,
We are talking past each other. I don't really put stock in elementary school grades. It's sounds like we agree on the large scale.
quote:posted January 17, 2005 03:39 PM --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I think that more people should feel guilty. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course - then they are easier to manipulate.
If that's where your priorities are.
I'm just thinking about the article I read about felons and businessmen having an extraordinarily high self-esteem.
quote:I think that more people should feel guilty. Of course it goes both ways, but we have to understand that stupid group's only distinction is that they are stupid, and part of being gifted comes with understand that responsibility that gift confers.
Assuming, of course, that a gifted person is able to teach classmates, or even children two grades below. An assumption that is pretty unsubstantiated.
And you seem to be advocating depriving "gifted" children of the chance to maximize their learning if such deprivation will help children you refer to as "stupid."
posted
Jenny, what do you mean by "exit strategies?" When I saw your mention of that what jumped into my mind was that the ultimate goal of gifted and talented programs was to eventually have the student able to function happily in a “normal” setting. _____
The idea behind special education, at least in my daughter's school district, is to create a "least restrictive environment.” This means that the student is integrated into the “regular” classroom as much as possible. In the case of my daughter, she goes to a regular classroom but periodically goes to separate classes to meet special needs ranging from academic issues like language comprehension to social needs like anger management. She is able to keep up with the standard second grade curriculum and be with her peers while getting her needs met.
More advanced students help her by being good role models. Sometimes typically developing peers will be invited to join social groups such as a “circle of friends” group that deals with how to make friends, but they are by no means required to attend.
I’m just thinking out loud here. Some of you stated that being talented and gifted was a special need, so I think it makes sense to look at how special needs are handled. Can approaching gifted and talented programs from a “least restrictive” point of view work, or is being in an average classroom restrictive by nature? Are the special needs of talented and gifted students so severe as to require being pulled out of their classes and put in a small elite group?
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quote:And you seem to be advocating depriving "gifted" children of the chance to maximize their learning if such deprivation will help children you refer to as "stupid."
I wouldn't phrase it that way, but yep. I think it will make for a richer classroom. I'm not a maximizing for sake of maximizing type of guy.
quote:Those who accomplish things usually do. Those with low esteem talk but don't take action.
I don't know if it's that simple. Should we say of gang murders or corporate theives, "Well, at least they are out there doing something with their lives."
*chuckles* I'm also thinking of Clinton eating all of that junk food in the 90s with pride, and maybe he shouldn't have felt so good about that, either.
quote:I wouldn't phase it that way, but yep. I think it will make for a richer classroom. I'm (edit: not a) maximizing for sake of maximizing type of guy.
Of course you wouldn't phrase it that way, but I'm glad you admitted it. If you're philosophy becomes dominant, expect more flight of advanced kids from school systems with such policies.
The classes that were identified as "difficult" in high school were at least tolerable. Those with everyone in the general population (American Government, Spanish, *shudder* P.E.) were absolute hell. If all my classes had been like that, it's likely I wouldn't have finished high school.
I agree, the problem is that if parents are narrowly looking for their own child's scientific self-interest, then it's not fair for gifted kids to have to use their time-- and the classes time-- to help or model for your kid. A very good argument could be made that the gifted kids are not served by the burden of giftless kids leeching off of them. It's an argument I don't agree with, but that's what we are talking about.
posted
Are you trying to argue against both sides? What's happening in ladyday's classroom is exactly what you've been advocating.
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quote:I think that more people should feel guilty.
I've been trying not to say this, but I can't hold it in any more.
I am sick and tired of people trying to make me feel guilty because I am what is generally called "smart" in our society. Because, frankly, that's all I've been hearing all my life. Never got it from my mom and dad, because they always understood. But from the rest of the family, on both sides, from friends of the family, from almost everyone at most of the schools I ever attended (even support from teachers at every level was very hard to come by). In every way, ever since I was a child, I have been given the message that I should just keep my mouth shut because being "smart" didn't make me anything but annoying. Further, I have always been expected, within my family, to show intense interest in everything everyone else does and is interested in, but no one in the family, outside my immediate nuclear family, has ever acknowleged any achievement or interest of mine. Ever.
Why am I, and other academically talented individuals, singled out? We don't expect the athletically talented to downplay their abilities. We don't expect the musically talented, or the artistically talented (with the exception of writers, sometimes, because that smacks too much of academics), or the musically talented, or the dramatically talented to downplay their abilities. But because my ability happens to be academic, I'm supposed to shut up and act like I don't know any more than anyone else, and to act like I like it that way.
You know, we went through this whole argument when I was attending community college, when some folks in the school felt that the Honors Program (which I was not enrolled in, although I was invited to take some of their classes by individual instructors) and the honor societies should be abolished because they were considered "elitist". Well, these same people were not proposing to eliminiate the Dean's Medallions. These didn't depend on grades so much as someone being a recovering addict or alcoholic, or a rape victim, or having gone through some other hardship in life, even though the Medallions were consdered the highest "academic" award in each division. In other words, even if you had the highest grades and the most achievemets in a given division, you would not be invited to apply for consideration for the Medallions unless you had undergone some "hardship" in life. And they had to be the right sort of hardships; a good friend was not allowed to apply for the Medallion even though she was a young widow, severely dyslexic, raising two children alone who had also lost a third child, who nonetheless was in the honors program with an exemplary academic record.
They also did not propose elmininating athletic honors or artistic honors. Just the academically-oriented honors programs. Because it might make the people not invited to join the Honors Program or the Honor Society feel bad about themselves. You think it didn't make me feel bad about myself in high school when the cheerleaders were considered the ideal just because they were thin and could do gymnastics? But nobody seemed to think that was a problem.
Do I sound defensive? You bet I do. That probably has something to do with the fact that I've been put on the defensive about my one measly little talent - being good at academic things - all my life. And, frankly, I'm a little tired of it.
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posted
On one hand, it's irritating that academic honors be eliminated. On the other, school is all just a game, and things sort themselves out. Life in general is Revenge of the Nerds.
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posted
You know, I honestly had no idea that something liek this thread would open up such a mental can of worms inside myself. And in Hatrack, too.
Irami, I'm going to talk again from personal experience. I don't have any studies or stats to back up what I am going to say, merely the personal experiences of myself and other in this "elite" group.
It was a chance to soar. Once a week, I could be with kids who thought like I did. Kids who read books - they read books! And books like I did! We played card games that taught us pattern recognition and visual thinking. We researched subjects that interested US. Once a week, one precious, glorious day a week, I was interested in school.
The rest of the time, I sat there. After I finished grade five, my teachers were, well, less than equipped to deal with an oddball. Maybe my class went slower than average ones do. Heaven knows we were a tiny number - 11 of us, when I graduated grade 8.
Some time during those years, I learned that there was no point in putting my hand up to answer a question. I already knew the answer. If I answered it, then no one else would have to figure it out. I wasn't learnign anything, there was no point in me answering. Which made for a lot of time spent sitting at my desk pretending to be stupid. Also, I learned, the other kids don't like you when you answer all the questions.
Not that it mattered, they didn't like me much anyway. I put up with all sorts of crap because I was different. I hid who I was and what I loved in a vain attempt to avoid being the outcast. I'm sure there are people who suffered a lot worse, but I don't know their pain. I only know that I still carry a lot of marks today. And I refuse - REFUSE - to feel guilty about the things that brought me joy. I sat through four days of boredom each week in anticipation of that one day where I could be myself.
Who would I be if there was no Mrs Wallce, no Ms Costa? I don't know. Sometimes, when I'm especially down, I wonder if I would even be. The boredom, frustration, and yes, the unfairness, would have left far deeper marks.
Not to mention what happens when a kid learns to caost. A kid who ghoes uncallenged through elementary school can be shocked in high school. A kid who manages to coast through high school will be hit even harder by university. With no challenge, you never learn good work habits. Never stretching, when someone requires you to, you can't.
I will not be guilty. I've spent too long coming to terms with the fact that Who I Am is in fact an Okay Thing to Be.
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posted
*chuckles* Yup Lady Jane. I'd say the thing I'm most proud of at this point in my life is becoming a 24 year old homeowner.
AJ
On another note: My boyfriend, my fellow homeowner, who is as I've mentioned before of Black-Cuban descent, was bored out of his mind *in* the gifted programs in what was the best school system in the state of Ohio (which has pretty decent public schools in general). So, I don't know if he's actually a genius or not, but apparently the gifted programs that were helping everyone else, left him bored. He slept his way through his hardest classes his senior year of high school, infuriating teachers because when they'd wake him up he'd know the answers.
posted
What are you agreeing with? I stated some things that were happening in my kid's class and asked some questions. While I think the concept of inclusion and a least restrictive environment is a good one for my daughter, I'm not sure if it answers the needs of the gifted and talented.
In a way, though, I think it should. It just makes sense to me that kids with special needs should be treated the same whether they be above or below the typically developing spectrum. But I want the experts to weigh in .
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quote:It was a chance to soar. Once a week, I could be with kids who thought like I did. Kids who read books - they read books! And books like I did! We played card games that taught us pattern recognition and visual thinking. We researched subjects that interested US. Once a week, one precious, glorious day a week, I was interested in school.
quote:On the other, school is all just a game, and things sort themselves out. Life in general is Revenge of the Nerds.
I don't think it's that simple. I don't think that school is a game or that life is revenge of the nerds or that soldiers and firefighters should decide public policy and that academics do not live in the "real" world.
I think the word "gifted" is morally active and that science is the least important core subject taught in school and that we should think carefully about what qualities we are praising and blaming when label kids gifted and giftless.
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posted
I don't know, Katie. The only reason I survived school was that I knew at least the teachers thought I was worth something. The academic honors and amazement I got from adults were the only reason I didn't go catatonic from the severe harassment and, looking back, sometimes emotional abuse I got from my peers because they saw me as "other" because I was smart and didn't like sports and didn't care about clothes.
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