quote:I don't want someone with no educational experience or training teaching my kids, I don't care how well they know math.
See, this is the thing. The restrictions are the opposite.
To go "alternate route" which is becoming more and more popular, they don't care if you've had *any* education classes. They do care that you've taken a certain level of coursework in a subject field, however.
For instance, to teach 6th grade math, you need to have taken 30 credits worth of collegiate math - which equates to Calc III and Linear Algebra level of mathematics, for the most part.
Now, I understand that you have to show a requisite amount of knowledge to teach a course, but course credit is not an accurate gauge of either subject matter knowledge, understanding, or ability to teach that information effectively.
You could have gotten D's throughout college math, having retaken classes over and over to barely scrape by with 30 credits - and be considered far more qualified than someone who took 18 credits and aced everything.
In a different example, you could have taken high level mathematics and topography, dealing with math theory at the uppermost levels of collegiate study. This doesn't, however, mean you have any real connection to middle school math - or have the ability, or patience, to teach it.
The credits matter, not the understanding of the subject or the ability to teach it. And, on top of the credits, you have to take a Praxis test to show that you understand the material, anyway. If you blow the test out of the water, but are short credits, shouldn't that mean something?
No one has been able to adequately explain the reasoning behind the credit restrictions. Or why getting a Masters degree in topography has any bearing on your performance as a 7th grade teacher.
But, along with alternate route, they do force feed pedagogy. Education classes must be taken along with your first or second year teaching, but, by that point, real world experience in the classroom has shown so many of the theories to be 80% pipe dream and 20% only situationally applicable.
quote: Thing is, if it's a calling, it takes sacrifice and dedication. I don't think it helps the education system to make it easier for people to teach, I think we need to make sure that those that are truly dedicated and want to do it are qualified to do it.
I'm guessing, by this, that you haven't gotten your own class and classroom yet. I could be wrong.
Just walking into that classroom every day prepared to teach (and, more importantly, handle the myriad psychological, emotional, social, and undefinable issues children cope with on a daily basis) takes tremendous sacrifice and dedication - on a level totally apart from that needed to sit through lecture.
No matter what hoops you require someone to jump through *before* they are thrust into the fire, actually teaching in the classroom is the true gauge on whether a person has the required dedication and willingness to self-sacrifice. Unfortunately, the two types of sacrifice are entirely different.
Giving up time for class is a world apart from giving up time to sit in a counselor's office with a 13 year old girl who has been sexually assaulted. Giving up time for homework is a world apart from giving up time to sit with a parent of a student who brought a knife into school. Some people are entirely cut out for the former, but not the latter.
But more importantly, the opposite is true. There are truly gifted people who have the wherewithall to teach, and have a natural ability. (I have seen many as paraprofessional aides). These people may not have the patience, however, to sit through hours of theoretical coursework.
Do I think our teachers need to be held to a higher standard? You bet I do. However, a standard of college credits is arbitrary. The ability to take a class has no bearing on your ability to teach one.
There are substitute teachers and paraprofessionals I have worked with that could teach circles around long-tenured teachers, and course credit doesn't even enter the equation.
I think (though I can't be sure) that those on this site working towards eventually becoming teachers would much prefer to have a greater ratio of time in a classroom environment to time spent taking courses; time spent observing teachers in the field, rather than listening to lecture; time spent observing students and helping them deal with their problems, rather than hearing lecture about child psychology.
But this is not the emphasis. The emphasis is on institutional learning, rather than practical first-hand experience. There is series of high jump bars put in place for teacher training, when the job itself is like the long distance hurdles - the skills gained in one don't necessarily transfer from one to the other.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Student teaching is one semester, but most higher level education classes at JSU have practicum requirements, so that you have some classroom teaching experience before you even get to the student teaching semester.
quote:To go "alternate route" which is becoming more and more popular, they don't care if you've had *any* education classes. They do care that you've taken a certain level of coursework in a subject field, however.
You are incorrect here, at least in Alabama. You must have, as I said, a certain number of courses in education and practicum and student teaching requirements met before getting a teaching certificate. If you don't have an undergraduate degree in your teaching field of choice, say mathematics, you have a certain number of hours in math that you must take before you can get that certificate as well. So someone with a degree in topography cannot teach math in Alabama, not without taking a certain number of hours of math, and 44 hours of education.
quote:Now, I understand that you have to show a requisite amount of knowledge to teach a course, but course credit is not an accurate gauge of either subject matter knowledge, understanding, or ability to teach that information effectively.
You could have gotten D's throughout college math, having retaken classes over and over to barely scrape by with 30 credits - and be considered far more qualified than someone who took 18 credits and aced everything.
I don't know what college you go to or went to, but D's will not count toward fulfilling your credit requirement at JSU.
You must have a 2.5 in all coursework attempted, and a minimum of 3.0 in your graduate work.
quote:If you blow the test out of the water, but are short credits, shouldn't that mean something?
By itself, not really. I think you need both. College degrees aren't solely about learning the material. They're also about demonstrating that you can commit to something and through dedication and hard work fulfill the requirements of that commitment.
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In California, student teaching (for elementary education at least) is two semesters: one in a K-3 class, one in a 4-6 class.
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Well, student teaching is the last form of indentured servitude left, so I'm not happy that some states require a whole year of it :-/ Student teaching is essential, but we need to rethink the economics of it. Its impossible to work, and do student teaching at the same time... and you have to pay for the privelege of doing someone else's work. Its nuts.
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largely depends on the school/company, I think. I know a fair number of people who get paid, at least marginally, for their internships. And at some schools, you don't pay full tuition or even any tuition while doing an internship
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And Paul, I would actually find it to be more work to have a student teacher, just so you know. Many teachers feel that way, though some love being a mentor, some abuse the student teacher position(not OK).
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It's actually referred to as a teaching internship at the univeristy here.
How is it any different from other field with practicum requirements? My husband had to do 40 hours per week of clinicals when he was getting his paramedic license - he didn't get paid for them.
Nursing students and med school students have to do clinicals as well. Why is this different?
I think it's wonderful that colleges generally try to accomodate working students, but at some point shouldn't your education and training be important enough that you treat it as a full time job?
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quote:I think we need to make sure that those that are truly dedicated and want to do it are qualified to do it. I don't want someone with no educational experience or training teaching my kids, I don't care how well they know math.
Well, in public schools, you're much more likely to have the opposite of this: someone teaching math with a four-year education degree, BUT NO BACKGROUND IN MATH. My sister taught in Maryland; during her first year of teaching, she was supposed to teach a semester of algebra. She's a music teacher. She hadn't studied algebra since high school.
My alternate-route-teacher friend has a master's plus in biology. He had some experience teaching undergraduates, and a gift for teaching in general. He had to take two semesters of courses to get a state certification--the second semester was completed after he got a teaching job in a juvenile detention center. He has a talent for working with kids, troubled or otherwise. Now, a few years later, he teaches AP, 9th grade, and 8th grade science in a private college prep school, and is doing quite well. He didn't NEED a multiple-year education degree.
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How much do doctors get during their residency? They must get paid...but I don't remember if I got billed the same for seeing a resident instead of our regular doctor. (I guess it didn't matter in the end because the resident had to call in two other doctors to consult.) But then there was the time I was in a teaching hospital and I'm pretty sure they didn't bill my insurance for the fleet of nurses that were in to observe.
Who pays? And how much should they for on-the-job learning?
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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I never did student teaching. I parlayed Sunday School teaching experience into jobs tutoring at a tutoring center and teaching test prep classes, and those into paid teaching jobs. Student teachers are slave labor. They put in insane hours, teaching much or all of the day and then going to classes, and they pay for the privilege.
I did have a couple of internships, one as a programmer/researcher and one as a researcher, and both were paid. They paid quite well, for a college student, in fact.
As far as the student teaching requirement, most if not all districts will wave it if you have equivalent "real" experience.
-o-
Belle, just to clarify, when I said I wasn't offended, I was referring to OSC: I'm not offended by his column. I'm not offended by anything else here either, btw, but I wanted to clarify that point, lest somebody think I was protesting too much. Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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In the UK student teachers get free tuition (but then we have very low tuition fees anyway) and an £6,000 per year training bursary. As a postgrad education course (PGCE) is usually full time, that's basically what you live on. You are on the course for 180 working days, of which you spend 120 in school observing or teaching. So most of the training year is spent in school, learning on the job. You are expected to have an undergraduate degree in the subject you are training to teach at secondary level (though there are exceptions - my degree was in philosophy and politics and I'm training to teach religious studies). I don't know how undergraduate degrees in education that lead to qualified teacher status work, but that's how the PGCE works. On my course, we were at uni full time for four weeks, doing subject knowledge extension and some basic bits of theory (the status of RE in the national curriculum, lesson planning, inclusion and differentiation - all either context or practical stuff, really). Then we were at school 4 days a week till Christmas, with a day at uni every week where we had further subject knowledge extension or training on practical issues (not that much explicit pedagogy - more stuff like learning styles, effective teaching of older students for examination courses, classroom management) and the tutor who ran those sessions was herself a very effective teacher, so we got a huge amount out of it by seeing first-hand how the strategies she recommended worked. Now we're in school 5 days a week, expected to teach a 40% timetable and on top of that we have various tasks, essays and so on set by our professional studies mentor and the university. I can't say I've learned a huge amount of educational theory - it really has been focused on what works in the classroom. I guess it must be different in the US, though, from what people are saying...?
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I will explain my slaver....ahem my student teaching when I have more time this afternoon. It was really interesting to read about Icarus and amira's experiences, so I'll have to throw mine into the pot. Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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quote: Glenn, I think it goes even deeper than that. My paranoia meter says that NCLB is out to destroy public education and redistribute the funds.
I agree. I've written about this before, especially the "shadow public education systems" that exist in the old south states. Whether it's racially motivated, or religiously, or ethnically, these people don't like the fact that government funding limits education policy.
"Faith Based Initiatives" means the same thing.
quote: Thing is, NCLB wasn't conjured from thin air. There were educational experts who are theorists in the field that were consulted and brought in to back the bill, to emphasize how valid it is, and to show that it will work.
True, and my comment you are responding to (about NCLB not being written by educators) is the weakest argument of the 4 I listed, only because politicians were able to find educators that would give them the support they needed. But still, it didn't get written because educators pushed for it, but because politicians did.
quote: So, Glenn, how many kids have you sent through public school? And how many public schools have you had personal experience with as a parent?
Two. My son graduated with a 3.9 GPA, and AP college credit in history. He turned down AP calculus because he wanted to pursue artistic interests. He had a perfect SAT score in Verbal, and quite good in Math (800 and 640, I think).
My daughter was originally behind in reading, so she was placed in a reading program and within two years was tested at the 98th percentile for reading at her grade level. She now is a high school freshman in Honors Math, English and History, and she's in the National Junior Honors Society.
As a parent I've experienced 2 elementary schools, 2 middle schools and one high school. All within the same district.
As a student of education and substitute teacher I've experienced 5 districts, (not including my children's district) with a total of 6 high schools, 7 middle schools, and I've lost count of elementary schools.
And of course, as a child I experienced 4 districts, 3 elementary schools, one Jr. High School, and 3 High Schools.
Yet all of that is merely anecdotal evidence, as is yours. More important is how I look at the news reports that we are inundated with on a day to day basis. Constant reports of "below average schools" only affirms that precisely 50% of schools are "below average." Comparison of american schools to foreign schools only affirms that america suffers "lower average scores" because we attempt to educate a larger fraction of our population. Same for "Falling SAT" scores. Reports of "Students that can't read" in our High Schools is an indicator that we keep failing students in the system longer than we used to, rather than encouraging them to drop out and find a job, as was standard practice in the 1950's.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Well, in public schools, you're much more likely to have the opposite of this: someone teaching math with a four-year education degree, BUT NO BACKGROUND IN MATH. My sister taught in Maryland; during her first year of teaching, she was supposed to teach a semester of algebra. She's a music teacher. She hadn't studied algebra since high school.
I understand what you're saying. I know that in the past this has been the case. What I'm trying to point it is that it no longer is, at least not in my state.
For new teachers, the requirements are that you have a major in your field of study, plus the education requirements to get a secondary teaching certificate in that subject. I know that it's been enforced, by tallking to my kids' teachers - case in point my daughter's gifted education teacher has discovered that she can no longer teach the middle school gifted classes, and had to stop this year - because she doesn't have the appropriate certificate.
Principals can get exceptions for people who aren't qualified for that subject so long as no other qualified person applied for the position. That's what is happening with the school library programs - many of them are using teachers who don't have the library certificate because there aren't enough people out there who have it. Alabama is ranked 50th out of 51 states (DC included) for ratio of students to qualified librarians.
In other words, a new librarian with the proper certificate and no experience must be hired over an experienced teacher without the certificate. Now, this can be a good thing or a bad thing. For me, since I plan to graduate certified in my field of choice it's good. I can get a job just about anywhere, but in doing so I may displace a teacher that's been there for years. Of course, that teacher has the opportunity to add-on the proper certificate, if he/she chooses.
The school librarian position is in desperate short supply in Alabama. My friend works as a reading specialist in a school district and in their eight schools, not one has a qualified librarian. I hope in four years, they'll have at least one.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: You must have a 2.5 in all coursework attempted, and a minimum of 3.0 in your graduate work.
You know, I never knew that. It's quite possible Rutgers has the same requirement. I was never in danger of not receiving credit, so I never knew the cutoff.
Looking back at my previous point, I guess you could substitute getting the lowest possible credit-earning grade after repeated attempts for 30 credits instead of getting 4.0's for 18 credits.
As for Alabama's alternate route certification, they do not require education courses going into the program, nor do any other alternate route programs.
Alternate route is a way for people with relevant life experience to begin teaching, while at the same time taking coursework in pedagogy at night and on weekends. Alternate route teachers begin teaching with a Certificate of Eligibility, and then work through the bureaucratic hoops to get provisionally certified, then officially certified.
Alabama seems to require 14 credit hours of coursework from the time you enter the program until the time you get your cert. New Jersey requires 200 hours of coursework (not credit hours, not sure how one translates to the other).
quote: True, and my comment you are responding to (about NCLB not being written by educators) is the weakest argument of the 4 I listed
If I remember, you didn't list any arguments. You just wrote the word "Wrong" four times.
quote: Reports of "Students that can't read" in our High Schools is an indicator that we keep failing students in the system longer than we used to, rather than encouraging them to drop out and find a job, as was standard practice in the 1950's.
This is very true, as was the rest of what you said in that paragraph. But, unfortunately, keeping students in the system has become "passing students through the system" - without really stopping to see how much they've really learned.
A 10th grader that can't read is a failure of the system. Would that student have been encouraged to drop out years ago? Possibly. But should that student have passed 9th grade? No.
We do try to educate a greater portion of our population, but I feel that the methods we are using (which are taught in education courses) don't even begin to address the difficulties of such an effort.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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quote: A 10th grader that can't read is a failure of the system. Would that student have been encouraged to drop out years ago? Possibly. But should that student have passed 9th grade? No.
A 10th grader that can't read is probably dyslexic, or has some other form of learning disability. Many such students can and do learn worthwhile skills from their time in school. A lot depends on the school. Some of those "educational theories" OSC is railing against include the fact that some such students would never have been recognized as being able to learn and kicked out of the system, but there are significant numbers of people who, for example, can't read but can do very well in history if their instruction is based on "talking books" or videos, and the tests are read to them. I picked history because it's generally associated with reading skill, but there are plenty of other examples.
In fact, recently I've been working with an 8th grader who reads, maybe at a 2nd grade level, but seems to have a pretty good understanding of 8th grade science. I'm trying to assess whether the school would be willing to read her tests to her, so she might be able to pass her science course, but I think the school has too many hard luck cases and has has an entrenched "war zone" mentality. And since I'm just a sub, I'm not really in a position to discuss her IEP.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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FlyingCow, I looked at the alternative fifth year requirements at JSU (Jacksonville State University) and you are right, you don't have to have education classes entering the fifth year alternate route program, but you certainly do before you can receive a teaching certificate. Maybe I'm just confused on what you were disagreeing with me on?
I thought we were talking about whether or not people should take education classes before being certified as a teacher, and they do, alternate route or not, in Alabama.
Here are the requirements for getting a teaching certificate in mathematics in Alabama, going the alternate 5th year route:
quote:ALTERNATIVE FIFTH-YEAR PROGRAM MASTER OF SCIENCE IN EDUCATION MAJOR: SECONDARY EDUCATION TEACHING FIELD: MATHEMATICS (6-12)
Basic Requirements (26-29 semester hours):
EFD 500 Research in Education (3) EFD 515 Seminar in Schools and Learning (2) EFD 560 Psychological Principles of Learning (3) EIM 410G The Information Age Classroom (2) EPY 429G Developmental Psychology (Lab Required) (2) EPY 442G Educational Measurement (2) ESE 404G Effective Teaching in the Secondary Schools (2) (Corequisite: ESE 484G) (Prerequisite: EPY 429G and lab) ESE 420G Teaching Mathematics (2) ESE 484G Secondary Practicum (2) (Corequisite: ESE 404G) ESE 567 Improvement of Reading in Secondary Schools (2) ESE 580 Internship in Secondary Education (4) (offered Fall and Spring during public school hours) (Prerequisites: Completion of SPE 500 and all coursework listed above).
*SPE 500 Survey Course in Special Education (3)
Students who have not previously satisfied the special education requirement at the undergraduate or graduate level must take SPE 500 and have no electives.
Teaching Field Requirement (15 semester hours):
By faculty advisement, select 15 graduate semester hours in mathematics courses. At least half of the 15 semester hours selected must be numbered at the 500 level. A student may transfer no more than three semester hours in the teaching field. This major requires a minimum GPA of 3.0 in the course work in the teaching field. Transfer credit cannot be used to raise the GPA in this teaching field course work to the required 3.0.
*Electives: 0 or 3 semester hours: By faculty advisement, 3 graduate semester hours of electives must be selected from courses numbered at the 400G or 500 levels.
44 Semester Hours Required for this Degree
After getting the degree as outlined above, you are eligible to apply to the state for your Class A cerftificate.
Edit: I think I know where we got our wires crossed - you were looking at Baccalaureate-Level alternative routes and I was looking at fifth year, or master's levels.
[ January 27, 2005, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Belle ]
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: A 10th grader that can't read is probably dyslexic, or has some other form of learning disability.
And if the child is in 10th grade with undiagnosed dyslexia, or some other cognitive impairment, that is still a failure of the system. There are resources, just as you described, for helping students with learning disabilities.
The problem is when you have regular ed students who are failing for any number of reasons, yet the school passes that student on anyway.
Belle, I'm not sure what we were disagreeing on, either, come to think of it.
My basic stance is that education courses are, for the most part, severely limited in their usefulness. Day to day experience is a far better teacher than any lecture could be, and the idea of student teaching (or apprentice teaching) should be a far greater percentage of any sort of education degree program - like 80% or better.
I feel that the requirement of education courses for teachers is overly emphasized. The number of pet theories that have come and gone (such as whole language, or open classrooms) in the past decades is astounding. It's very similar to dietary fads and crazes, when one theory replaces another, or an old one is disproven.
Hours spent sitting in a classroom listening to a professor who hasn't been in a noncollegiate environment in years (if ever) is not useful, and turns away many truly gifted individuals that we want educating the country's youth.
Unfortunately, we end up with many highly educated, highly "qualified" teachers who can't teach a damn thing - although they can recite theory and subject matter to you all day long.
The ability to teach is not something that can be gained by taking courses, nor is it something that can be measured by tests. It is not quantitative, but qualitative. All the restrictions placed upon new teachers, however, are *quantitative* - and so are not really geared towards finding people who can actually teach.
A good teacher doesn't necessarily require an ed degree, nor does an ed degree necessarily make someone a good teacher.
The prerequisites to teach are very similar to the whole concept of standardized testing for students - an arbitrary benchmark by which a person can be quantified.
Posts: 3960 | Registered: Jul 2001
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Belle, just one other thing, with regards to alternate route.
You need education courses to become certified, but not to teach. In fact, you can teach a good many years without getting your certificate, simply by being involved with the alternate route program.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
We have teachers at our school that have already taught for 20 years in a private school environment, but they are forced to take alternate route courses simply because they are short on education credits.
In one alternate route class in our district, there was a teacher of 25 years who had *taught* alternate route courses for 10 years. The state told her that she could not be certified, though, until she took the courses herself.
posted
So, fugu - was not at work Wednesday, and while at work today discovered someone had borrowed my directory of schools, school districts, regional educational service districts, and the superintendant of the state listing. I will see if I can't hunt it down tomorrow - it was a difficult listing to get to begin with . . . but still very interesting (to my mind) and a good indicator of where the tax dollars go to as it shows all the myriad levels involved in education in this state. So, if you are still interested, I'll try to track it down tomorrow again, or find a website to reference for you -
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quote: And if the child is in 10th grade with undiagnosed dyslexia, or some other cognitive impairment, that is still a failure of the system.
True, provided it's undiagnosed. As I mentioned, the girl I've been working with has an IEP. I don't have access to it, and I'm probably not supposed to know she has it, but it's one of those things that everyone knows anyway.
So I don't know what the school is doing to deal with her reading problems, or what the diagnosis is.
The other issue here is that some parents pull strings to *GET* their kids classified, in order to get extra help, yet other parents are scared to death of "labeling" their kids, so they don't get help. It's not an issue of diagnosis, it's an issue of classification, and you have to get the parents permission to do that.
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* is slightly amused (in a sad way) for discovering teachers have a tough time of it everywhere, as it seems.
Hehe...I almost wrote a big post about what it takes to become a teacher in Brazil, and some peculiarities of brazilian school system, but you guys wouldn't be interested in it, probably.
Posts: 1785 | Registered: Oct 2003
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How can parents pull strings to get their kid classified as learning disabled? To me it seems that not enough kids are classified that should be.
My husband is dyslexic and they never diagnosed or classified him and he ended up barely graduating high school at a 4th grade reading level. If he had been classified he would have done a lot better in school and college.
My son's teacher just told me yesterday that if teachers start refering all of the kids that should be tested in their class they get pressure from "higher up" to stop and they are told they are not doing their job and refering "too many" children to be tested for special ed. Too many???? Either the kid has a learning disability or they don't. It may vary in severity but that doesn't mean the mild cases don't need help.
If a parent has to "pull strings" to get their kid tested, it is probably because the school system doesn't have the right system in place to identify them. (I may be ranting a little here from the conversation I had with my son's teacher.)
[ January 28, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Dazzling Kira ]
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quote:If a parent has to "pull strings" to get their kid tested, it is probably because the school system doesn't have the right system in place to identify them.
Or there's parents like me, who have children that do need help, but because they're not learning disabled or hindered enough don't qualify for assistance.
Sad thing is, my insurance won't pay for the needed occupational therapy beyond a token few visits, because, in their words "That's a service that is provided free by the schools."
Umm, only if you qualify for it.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I have a feeling thay my kid isn't learning disabled enough to receive help either. Maybe that is why the system isn't so good. So, how do I "pull strings"? Posts: 15 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I'm not going to tell anyone how to get their kid classified just to get additional services. That's why administrators start to crack down on referrals.
But you can take your kid to a pediatric neurologist and have him/her *Diagnosed* with a learning disability, and you're pretty much guaranteed they'll get classified. A psychiatrist can also *Diagnose* a kid with a disability.
BTW, a pediatrician can prescribe ritalin, without an official diagnosis of ADD, but a pediatrician has no business diagnosing a kid with ADD. That needs to be a neurological diagnosis. Don't get your kid ritalin unless you've actually got the diagnosis, or you're no better than a drug dealer.
Posts: 3735 | Registered: Mar 2002
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There must not be any strings to be pulled. Any help at all to anyone is good in my opinion even if they don't "qualify". There just isn't enough money or some other reason.
I am going through the normal channels though to get help. I am not trying to cheat or use resources that are meant for others. I assume that most parents are trying to get services that will genuinely help their children succeed when the normal system won't help their children.
If the system decides not to help my dyslexic kid then I will probably assume the system is bad and I will tutor him at home every day. Posts: 15 | Registered: Jan 2005
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After all the system failed once already in our family with my husband. He would have had a much more successful life if he had been able to read and write. He is only mildly dyslexic so he never qualified for help.
Posts: 15 | Registered: Jan 2005
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quote:But you can take your kid to a pediatric neurologist and have him/her *Diagnosed* with a learning disability, and you're pretty much guaranteed they'll get classified. A psychiatrist can also *Diagnose* a kid with a disability.
In my case my son doesn't have a learning disability, he has a physical problem - that isn't severe enough to be classified as a physical disability and no amount of diagnosis can change the fact that under the Federal IDEA (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) occupational therapy is not a covered service. It's only an add-on service, so you have to qualify in some other area first in order to get OT. And my son doesn't.
It's very frustrating, because his lack of fine motor control will definitely cause him problems in school (he cannot properly grip a pencil, for example) but the school says they can't help him. I have to pay for the OT myself, which I just plain can't afford.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Kira, as a parent, I think you just need to insist that he be tested. They don't like to screen for learning disabilities till second grade (I think, or 8 years old.) From the way they explained it to me, the test was designed for at least a second grader, and if they test too early and the child doesn't qualify, they have to wait three years before they can test again.
Then again, nearly everything the school district told me was a big ol' bunch of lies, so. . .
When I read what you wrote about home work on the front page, I had to laugh. I think some of the busy work is just to show the parents that they are really teaching their kids. In our last district, I had a problem with a 10 year old or less spending 3-4 hours a night on homework, too. I finally got to the point that I told him I didn't care what his grades were. I would look at the homework he had at night and I would decide what he had to do and what he could skip. I didn't care about his grades, and he just needed to show me that he was trying his hardest. It was great. And at the IEP meeting, I told them that was what I was going to do. I'd decide what homework was important and which was silly busy work. (This was after years of being polite and seeing my son fall farther and farther behind.
Eventually, I pulled him out of school for three quarters and caught him up two grades. We then entered him into a different district (which had to test him for placement ) which is how I know how far he caught up. They were really surprised that he'd been home schooled for three quarters and what a difference it had made in his scores.
This new school, (he's in 8th grade and has been in this district two years) is great. I've been worried about a complete lack of homework, but I listen to him talk about school and all the fun things he's learned during the day, so I know he's learning and I've decided to stop stressing out about it. He's enjoying school for the first time in his life. He's got a B average and I'm just going to leave well enough alone. He'll never be a rocket scientist, but that's okay, because he doesn't want to be a rocket scientist. He finally learning and enjoying it. It took a decade of blood sweat and tears, but he's finally talking about fun stuff he learned at school.
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Belle, you might want to look into a 504 accomodation plan. This is also a legal and binding agreement between you and the school, but it does not fall under IDEA.
For instance, one of my students had a slight hearing impairment in his left ear, and he had a 504 plan put into place so that he would always be seated on the left side of the classroom - so that his good ear would be toward the teacher and class. I have seen other 504 plans for students who have difficulty seeing the board, which require them to be seated in the front row. Also others that focus on socialization problems, with accomodations that aid the student when dealing with cooperative learning environments.
Kira, mildly dyslexic should damn well have qualified for help. I have a student who is mildly dyslexic right now. She had my mother eight years ago in the first grade. During that time, she was an average student who had some difficulty reading, but the consistency she showed with her difficulty led my mother to recommend her for testing. At the end of the year, she was diagnosed with mild dyslexia, and her mother (bless her!) chose to have her daughter repeat the first grade, but in a different school in the district.
The second time through, she got the help she needed and the accomodated instruction, and she achieved far greater success and confidence. Now, she is one of my star students and has learned seven years worth of coping mechanisms and strageties - at this point, her IEP only has a provision for extended time on tests, which she never even uses. A true success story of special education.
Glenn, the problem of parent permission has been a problem. As has been the reluctancy of the administration to classify students. Generally, minority parents are more resistant to special ed classification because of the stigma they feel it carries (though in my school, at least, no one seems to notice or care whether one student receives some extra time or extra attention from an in class support teacher). White parents are far more apt to have their child tested and classified, so that they can receive special services that will help their child succeed.
As for schools' willingness to test, the law is very clear on one point - if a child needs an accomodation, you *will* pay for it no matter what it costs. Money cannot be discussed in a court of law when it comes to special ed accomodations, and an IEP is a legally binding document. Because of this, schools are reluctant to test students - simply because of the costs involved.
On top of this, many young black male students are misclassified (or misreferred) as ADHD, ADD, Emotional Disturbed, etc... when they are none of those things. Teachers in younger grades are quick to label a disruptive child, when their disruptive behavior may stem instead from conditions in the home. In my district, they *strongly* discourage us from referring black male students, because that demographic is already disproportionately represented.
It's difficult all around.
Personally, I'd love for *Every* student to be tested in 1st and again in 4th grade. If every child had an IEP accomodations sheet, my life would be 100 times easier. Rather than my trying to decipher each individual student's learning patterns, there would be a reference sheet of the modifications that student needs to succeed.
Even now, if one student's IEP calls for a visual aid as a companion to a lesson, I make sure that every student has one - it's a good idea, anyway. If another requires a study guide to be provided for each test, I offer that to all my students.
In my view, IEPs make the job easier by taking out some of the guesswork and experimentation. In others' view, they make the job harder by forcing the teacher to adapt their teaching style.
It's those teachers we need to worry about.
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Sigh. I guess it all comes down to round holes and square pegs. It would be nice if the system was perfect.
The best we can do is try.
The point on the 504's is a good one. I'm just learning the difference now.
And as to testing, current theory is aiming at about 3 to 4 years old, not first grade, if you really want to nip these things in the bud. Some schools are trying to do this, but really it's before they have access to the kids (I'm trying to remember the term: "Child find" (?) or something.
That's part of why I direct you to medical professionals, not educators. What the school may not be capable of, your medical insurance may do, especially with regard to providing a diagnosis, even if not a treatment. With that ammunition, the school should have to write the IEP. (And if you have the diagnosis before first grade, the school system may still be responsible for providing services)
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We brought our son in when he was 2 1/2 and they said he needed intervention, but they couldn't provide it till he was three. We took him to a speech lab at KU and they worked with him for a while, then the school took over when he was three. They stopped when he reached some ridiculous percentile. (I think one of them was 18th percentile, "which isn't good, but we can't provide services once they hit that benchmark.")
I seriously hope things are better nowadays. Like I said, my son is 14, and theoretically, we had him in the best school in the state, maybe the country, for autism. (Seriously, people move here from all over the country because of this program.) He was diagnosed and the school would write up IEPs and then do nothing with them. At the last IEP meeting we had, when I pulled him out of school, out of 9 teachers he had, only 2 knew he had an IEP, and one of them was his current "home room" teacher and the other was his previous year's "home room" teacher.
This was also the same meeting where they told us they thought his social skills needed to be addressed. You mean like we talk about every year and is written into the IEP?!?
God, I hated those people.
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Just so parents know, there are usually meetings before the IEP meetings. I would just love it if a with-it parent, or their educational advocate, came right out and said, "OK, which services have you decided to provide for my child? Can we just cut to the chase?"
I have also seen people bullied, big time. (usually by the sp. ed. director, not the teachers)
On the other hand, I have seen the special ed. teachers bring a parent around to accept their child's special needs and to make them realize that it is not a bad thing that they need extra help.
[ January 29, 2005, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Elizabeth ]
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Well, at our meeting, the speech therapist kept trying to hint around that he wasn't going to be qualified until I finally just came out and said "You're not telling me anything I dont already know."
I knew he wouldn't qualify in speech and he didn't even come close, he actually is above average in oral communication. He just can't write, because he physically has trouble holding a pencil.
I'll look into the 504 thing and see what happens.
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I just read the first post, so I don't know what else has been said since then. But I had to put in my 2 cents on the first post:
I am currently a high school senior. I have been in the current public school system for the last 13 years. In my experience the best teachers were not ones who did things by the book, they were not education majors, they were majors in the subject they taught and they taught their own styles. It held true from elementary school on up pretty much. Those who are education majors often had condecending attitudes that drove me nuts, and dumb projects that I equated only with busy work and learned nothing from. Now this data is most definately biased, beucase I have only a small sampling of teachers and whether or not I knew they were education majors was based on whether or not they told me. But to me, education major has come to be equated with bad, boring teacher. I don't know anything about you as a teacher Narnia, this is just from my personal experience.
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Kayla, the IEP is a legally binding document. If the school fails to make the accommodations stipulated, they can be taken to court and *forced* to make those accommodations. The law is very clear on the matter.
If something is written, it must be done - no matter what the cost of inconvenience. There was a recent lawsuit where a teacher refused to accomodate a student with an IEP, and that teacher was fined $15,000. The school and teacher are legally bound by that document, and if they do not comply, you should file for due process to start legal action.
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Yeah, but see, my problem is that I'm weird and my mother-in-law kept telling me and my husband not to be the "problem parents."
I should have been a bigger bitch about it all, but I played nice until I decided to take my ball and go home.
Anyway, he's doing well now.
But, all of his early IEPs they kept insisting on educational things and I had to really fight them just to get in that he could have extra time to buy a cookie at lunch because he had a tendency to barf if he didn't eat enough. And he'd lost weight and could stand the extra calories. But they had some weird policy about not selling the kids food after a certain time. And by the time he finished his lunch, it was too late for him to decide if he was hungry enough to buy a cookie.
I was very concerned about social interaction, and they kept telling me how nice and polite he was and how everyone liked him. And he'd come home and tell me about the games he played with kids at school. It wasn't until 4th or 5th grade that I found out he was sitting alone under a tree by himself and playing those games with his friends in his head.
Ooh, I still hate teachers. I hated them when I was a kid and I hate them as a parent.
Not you, of course, but the teachers that did that to my son. It still pisses me off.
In third grade we did have social interventions in the IEP. It all sounded nice in the IEP, but it boiled down to taking all the weird kids and having a weekly "lunch bunch" group. Unfortunately, the teacher leading it got cancer and they met all of 3 times.
I'm just going to stop now before I get mad all over again. Posts: 9871 | Registered: Aug 2001
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Fugu - you asked for some information last month. My apologies for the delay in getting it to you - as I said earlier, my hard copy disappeared out of my office. Miraculously, when I requested that it return during a staff meeting, it suddenly found its way back to my desk! Here is the name of the publication:
Washington Education Directory
and a linky to the site where you can purchase a copy since they do not publish on the web:
Now, as I was saying, I recall from my high school days (mid-80s) that in a school of 1200, we had a principal, vice-principal, three counselors, and two office assistants. Then we had teachers. Most of the teachers also taught extracurriculars such as theatre or sports. We also had full-time band and choir teacher, orchestra teacher, arts and crafts teacher, etc. these are offerings that are barely hanging on and are generally costing families additional monies to afford since it is no longer a part of standard public ed that is offered in a way that is affordable for all families. Okay - sorry - I'll stop that other rant. Back to the staffing levels in public education.
When you review this directory, what you see are numerous layers of administration.
From the top down:
Office of Superintendant of Public Instruction - OSPI(statewide)with nearly 8 pages of staff listings.
Seven "Educational Service Districts" - ESDs -another layer of administration with 11.5 pages of staff listings. (you can average about 50 names per page).
The next 141 pages list the school districts and then individual public schools. The school districts repeat much of the admin levels already listed in the previous two layers.
So - let's look in a little more detail:
A school district of 12,650 is already "served" through layers of OSPI and ESD. Then just within the school district itself (BEFORE the teachers/instructional staff) we have 24 admin position with similar titles to OSPI and ESD staff such as:
Superintendant Exec Asst to the Superint. Director of Community Relations Director of Instructional Services Director of Human Resources ad infinitem . . . down to Manager of the Auditorium.
Then we get to the actual schools.
A sample high school of 1,150 can contain a principal, three ass't principals, vocational director . . .no mention of office assistants, teachers, instructional assistants, custodians, bus drivers.
My point being: I get to listen to a lot of concerned folks in my real life about student:teacher ratios, poor nutrition, inadequate physical activity, lowered test scores and raised testing expectations (with little to no basis in reality) and then I look at these layers of administration and I suddenly see why it might be a wee difficult to provide lowered ratios, etc. The money is being spent in superfluous layers of admin.
I think it's shameful.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Yep, sounds like you have a surfeit of administration.
However, its not necessarily as bad as it looks, either. One thing I'd check for, for instance, is people wearing multiple hats. For instance, at my particular school, where we had a manager of the auditorium, a teacher or assistant principal held that post in addition to their other duties. This can happen at any level.
The duplication of job titles between layers isn't of particular concern to me, one needs a superintendent to look over the school districts as well as a superintendent to look over the schools in a district, for instance. And at each level there's all sorts of management stuff to do.
I'd say most of the fluff is at the ESD level, that's about 75 people per ESD. Its significantly less than the state level, but I've got the sneaking suspicion that funds for the ESDs come from district revenues, effectively. Funds for state superintendent are pretty much divorced from funds for schools, plus the ballooning federal paperwork alone takes hundreds of people per year at the state level; that's not an unreasonable number for a state office.
The school district numbers don't look bad at all. Superintendent plus secretary, likely a few people with multiple hats, HR and IS people (both of which are pretty much essential, particularly given regulations in place), that sort of thing. I'm mildly interested in the role of the Community Relations person, its possible that job could be better folded into the Superintendent and his secretary, but one position does not a burgeoning bureaucracy make. I don't know what the other positions not listed are, so I won't comment on them, but I expect we'll find a Comptroller or the equivalent, probably at least one other secretary, likely at least five or six more people working in IR-type fields, someone in district services, someone in operations, that sort of thing.
The school doesn't sound bad, either. They've pretty much got to have a vice-principal doing discipline-type stuff for legal reasons, need another vice principal to focus on traditional vice-principal-ish stuff, and need another vice-principal to take care of extra duties, like paperwork. The world requires a lot of paperwork.
The vocational director is there because they need someone in charge of the vocational program and nobody else knows how to do it (this is usually someone who was a teacher and likely still is but is wearing an additional hat).
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I hope in four years, they'll have at least one.
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Either the kid has a learning disability or they don't. It may vary in severity but that doesn't mean the mild cases don't need help.![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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) which is how I know how far he caught up. They were really surprised that he'd been home schooled for three quarters and what a difference it had made in his scores.![[Mad]](mad.gif)
I have a student who is mildly dyslexic right now. She had my mother eight years ago in the first grade. During that time, she was an average student who had some difficulty reading, but the consistency she showed with her difficulty led my mother to recommend her for testing. At the end of the year, she was diagnosed with mild dyslexia, and her mother (bless her!) chose to have her daughter repeat the first grade, but in a different school in the district. 
