posted
If that is the case, kq, why do you have a member saying something like:
quote:Wow. I wonder why I'm in the LDS church if I don't quite fit in it according to this test.
Steev, I apologize - not trying to pick on you.
My point is not that the LDS church does a bad job, kq, but just that doctrine should be emphasized. If your church does a good job at it - then great. That's my point - I think that's what should happen.
But I think it's impossible for you to assert that every single church in the LDS faith does such an excellent job of teaching doctrine that no LDS member is ever confused or unsure about their doctrinal beliefs - when we have evidence here that it isn't the case.
Your church may do a better job than most protestant churches (heck, it would be hard to do worse!) but it doesn't mean it's perfect. No church is.
My assertion is merely that ALL churches should do a good job teaching doctrine to its members, but some of that responsibility has to fall on the member themselves. I know where I stand and what I believe because it was important to me to learn that and have something I could stand by and say "Yes, I believe that, and this is why."
Each person needs to take some personal responsibility as well.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle, I'm not saying that every unit functions like this, just that it's supposed to. In some units, I have heard of people being there just because they've never known anything else.
Luckily, I've never been in one of them. If I was, I would take it up with the leaders of that unit, because I have a belief that one of the great things about this church is that we are all encouraged to know as much about our doctrine as we can learn.
I agree with you about some responsibility being on the member. If your body is there but your mind isn't, you won't learn much.
Our former youth pastor was ministering to several mormon youths at a local college and it was funny that he was educating them as to what their doctrine really said.
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posted
Belle, I have to say that statement scares me a little, because there is a lot of misinformation out there about what our doctrine really is, and ministers of other churches often believe it.
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posted
This test cannot be used to test knowledge of doctrine. There are at least 6 questions about social issues that some churches leave for personal decision.
I went back and took the test and payed attention to the "High Medium Low" buttons, marked all of the doctrine as "high" and I got the correct religion this time. But all of my answers to the questions stayed exactly the same. (Before, I was listed as 100% Orthodox Jew and only 70% Mormon.)
quote:1. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (100%) 2. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (93%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (93%) 4. Jehovah's Witness (92%) 5. Orthodox Quaker (82%) 6. Bahá'í Faith (81%) 7. Seventh Day Adventist (71%) 8. Eastern Orthodox (68%) 9. Orthodox Judaism (68%) 10. Roman Catholic (68%)
posted
Um, might I point out that the gentleman who made that statement likely did so in jest? The test came up 99% LDS for him.
Yeesh, it's not like I went and became a Muslim after the last time I took this test.
The test is interesting, but it hardly defines people's beliefs. Which is good, because several of the questions had no answer I particularly cared for, and at least one had more than one (on a choose-one question).
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quote: That said, I've run into several Mormons with shocking ignorance of their own "deep doctrine."
fortunately, the LDS faith does not require that we learn "deep doctrine." nor do we believe that god requires that we know it. "basic doctrine" on the other hand IS important, and if you ever run across a member that doesn't know our "basic doctrine" it is because they don't attend church (or their mind refuses to attend when their body does.)
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Belle, I have to say that statement scares me a little, because there is a lot of misinformation out there about what our doctrine really is, and ministers of other churches often believe it.
I'm sure you'll be relieved then to know that the pastor spent weeks meeting with Mormon missionaries, learning about the faith, asking numerous questions to be certain he was indeed properly informed.
And if your church does a good job teaching doctrine, no pastor of another church should be able to say anything that surprises them.
I was discussing Calvinism with someone once who tried to "shock" me by telling me "You know they believe in Limited Atonement!"
Of course, he was mis-informed as to what Limited atonement really meant, and once I explained it to him he said "Oh. Well, that isn't really any different from what I believe."
Again, this just reinforces my point - if you belong to a faith, I think you should know what it believes and be able to stand by it.
quote:fortunately, the LDS faith does not require that we learn "deep doctrine." nor do we believe that god requires that we know it. "basic doctrine" on the other hand IS important, and if you ever run across a member that doesn't know our "basic doctrine" it is because they don't attend church (or their mind refuses to attend when their body does.) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you explain to me the difference between basic and deep doctrine?
As you can tell, I have a somewhat personal crusade on the doctrine issue right now - I'm appalled at the level of ignorance so many people have about their own faiths, and I think it should change. Why would you not teach "deep" doctrine? And why would you think it's not equally important to know?
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posted
1. Liberal Quakers (100%) 2. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (99%) 3. Unitarian Universalism (96%) 4. Neo-Pagan (88%) 5. New Age (88%)
I live in an historically Quaker town. It must be rubbing off on me.
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quote:if you belong to a faith, I think you should know what it believes and be able to stand by it...I'm appalled at the level of ignorance so many people have about their own faiths, and I think it should change.
i think that is so essential... to me "By Faith is meant first conscious knowledge and second the practice of good deeds"...so whatever belief system we have has to be a fully lived expression of our particular beliefs rather than (all too often) passive acceptance.
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posted
Belle, I don't know what Tom meant by deep doctrine, but I think it is stuff that isn't actually outlined in church literature. (By which I mean stuff like when Brigham Young taught life begins, or whether the lost tribes are living in a subterrenean enclave.)
I can easily believe there are Mormons who don't know their doctrine, but mainly I think the test is jacked. To come up #1 LDS you have to subscribe to their definition of a "corporeal spirit " God which I had a long discussion with someone about last time this test came up.
I came up 100% Orthodox Jewish last time, and LDS was like 5th. You can say a lot of folks don't know their deep doctrine, but I'm not one of them if I do say so myself. Why, my doctrine is so deep it goes all the way back around to being shallow again.
Oh, here we go: 1. Orthodox Judaism (100%) 2. Eastern Orthodox (91%) 3. Roman Catholic (91%) 4. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (89%) 5. Jehovah's Witness (86%) 6. Islam (84%) 7. Orthodox Quaker (80%) 8. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (77%) 9. Sikhism (76%) 10. Hinduism (76%)
posted
1. Bahá'í Faith (100%) 2. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (97%) 3. Jehovah's Witness (97%) 4. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (95%) 5. Orthodox Judaism (94%) 6. Sikhism (88%) 7. Liberal Quakers (86%) 8. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (81%) 9. Hinduism (78%) 10. Jainism (77%)
.....
14. Roman Catholic (75%)
Hrm. I consider myself a Catholic...I don't know anything about the Bahá'í Faith! Maybe I should look into it.
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posted
1. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (100%) 2. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (99%) 3. Jehovah's Witness (85%) 4. Eastern Orthodox (84%) 5. Roman Catholic (84%)
The first question about the nature of the Godhead just didn't have the exact right answer for me. I must have picked the Conservative Protestant choice rather than the one earmarked for Mormons. Because I was going for a 100% Mormon score.
The first question:
quote: 1. What is the number and nature of the deity (God, gods, higher power)?
---Only one God--a corporeal spirit (has a body), supreme, personal God Almighty, the Creator. ---Only one God--an incorporeal (no body) spirit, supreme, personal God Almighty, the Creator. ---Multiple personal gods (or goddesses) regarded as facets of one God, and/or as separate gods. ---The supreme force is the impersonal Ultimate Reality (or life force, ultimate truth, cosmic order, absolute bliss, universal soul), which resides within and/or beyond all. ---The supreme existence is both the eternal, impersonal, formless Ultimate Reality, and personal God (or gods). ---No God or supreme force. Or not sure. Or not important. ---None of the above.
I bolded the choice I picked. Between this one and the first choice falls Mormon belief about God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost acting as one God. They are three separate and distinct beings acting in a unified manner. Also, we believe that God the Father and Jesus Christ do have bodies, but that the Holy Ghost does not.
I guess I could have in just as good conscience picked the first choice.
Posts: 5957 | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
"Wow. I wonder why I'm in the LDS church if I don't quite fit in it according to this test."
I have to say, I understood immediately that this person was making a joke. It wasn't the first time I have heard someone make this statement in jest after taking the test. All it needed was a smiley.
In all fairness, Belle might not have taken it as a joke because of her present problems. As for the question at hand, I have to agree that a numer of LDS don't understand their own religion. Yet, very few don't at least understand the basics of the faith.
The problem is the "deep doctrines" issues, that too many non-Mormons (and a few overzealous Mormons I might add) don't realize are secondary to the faith. For the most part LDS doctrine is a fairly open structure. It is large and expansive enough to evoke a kind of theoretical conceptualization. Too often the dividing line between basics and deeper (less important)issues is hard to tell because of the possibilities embeded in its ramifications.
Like the very structure of its organization, the theology is both a dogmatic (authoritative) and progressive (personal) system. There are core beliefs within it (basics), but what those beliefs might mean at closer scrutiny (deeper) can be far reaching and less than sure.
Sadly, those who don't understand the difference between basic and deeper teachings of the LDS Church continually misidentify what Mormons believe. Worse are those who deliberately force the "deeper" and more speculative aspects of LDS theology into the realm of basic beliefs; purposefully making a mockery or confusion.
At any rate, I find the beliefnet explanation of LDS teachings to be less than truthful and full of inacuracies.
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posted
The big thing about that question is that we believe Heavenly Father is the supreme God and has a body. Big issue there, but I agree, I had a problem with the wording.
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1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (96%) 3. Liberal Quakers (95%) 4. Reform Judaism (81%) 5. Orthodox Quaker (78%) 6. Bahá'í Faith (74%) 7. Neo-Pagan (72%) 8. Mahayana Buddhism (71%) 9. Theravada Buddhism (70%) 10. New Age (69%) 11. Sikhism (67%) 12. Secular Humanism (65%) 13. Jainism (57%) 14. Orthodox Judaism (57%) 15. Hinduism (56%) 16. Taoism (55%) 17. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (53%) 18. Seventh Day Adventist (51%) 19. Islam (51%) 20. New Thought (50%) 21. Scientology (49%) 22. Eastern Orthodox (46%) 23. Roman Catholic (46%) 24. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (40%) 25. Nontheist (39%) 26. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (39%) 27. Jehovah's Witness (26%)
I knew bad things would happen if I stopped going to church. I was baptized Roman Catholic. Guess that didn't work out very well.
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posted
1. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (100%) 3. Liberal Quakers (94%) 4. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (87%) 5. New Thought (80%)
Well, Interesting... I am Catholic by origin and culture, but i see another vision of my believe here...
I want to know better Liberal Quakers, Christian Science and New Thought (What are they ???) before appreciate the result...
[Edit after look Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants] : This is not my opinion in large part !!!
posted
Can't you click on the religion to learn about it? In one version of the test, where I answered by my personal ethics, I came up with Jainism and I had to look it up.
A good description of the Mormon conception of God using Mormon terminology would be "The greatest of all souls." but it probably sounds like it means something very different from how we mean it. It sounds like what the ex-preacher in The Grapes of Wrath prayed to.
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posted
1. Liberal Quakers (100%) 2. Unitarian Universalism (97%) 3. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (92%) 4. Mahayana Buddhism (90%) 5. Theravada Buddhism (88%)
I am reading up on these. So far I like Liberal Quaker--however, the name seems like an OXYMORON to me.
quote: After Death Few liberal Quakers believe in direct reward and punishment, heaven and hell, or second coming of Christ. The primary focus is nondogmatic: God is love, love is eternal, and our actions in life should reflect love for all of humanity.
quote: Salvation Beliefs are diverse, as dogma is de-emphasized. Most believe that all will be saved because God is good and forgiving, and the divine Light of God is available to all. Good works, especially social work and peace efforts, are viewed as integral to the salvation of humanity, regardless of belief or nonbelief in an afterlife.
posted
It only gave me a 66% for Taoism, but I think that should be much higher. I now proclaim myself a Taoist!
quote: Contemporary Issues Positions on abortion, homosexuality, divorce, nonviolence, and social-betterment programs are not unambiguously stated in the ancient texts. One might be able to derive a stance on these issues, but any such stance would be attenuated by the recognition that any stance is just a conceptual abstraction that has little usefulness.
For some reason I find that very funny, very wrong, and very right all at the same time. It has earned my *gigglesnarf.*
Posts: 2445 | Registered: Oct 2004
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quote:This test cannot be used to test knowledge of doctrine. There are at least 6 questions about social issues that some churches leave for personal decision.
The biggest reason that the test cannot be used to test knowledge of doctrine is that one is forced to select between a small number of simplistic answers. As a latter-day-saint I found that, on most questions, none of the answers fit LDS doctrine (as I understand it) exactly. Often several of them might be true if considered in a certain light.
For example;
What happens to humans after death?
The following answers all have some overlap with Mormon Doctrine but none of them are exactly correct.
quote: Souls are judged immediately for a foretaste of heaven or hell. At the final judgment, God (or Christ) will resurrect and judge all for heaven or hell. (Or souls may also be judged for punishment and/or purification before heaven.)
The soul's spiritual development continues after death so that all may eventually experience the indescribable joy of closeness to God. Hell is not a place but the tormented state of remoteness from God.
There is definitely an afterlife, but the specifics cannot be known or are unimportant--most important is one's conduct in life.
Choosing between these is difficult because they all contain aspects that are true from an LDS perspective. Which one a Mormon might pick is as likely to depend on their current state in life and the importance they give to individual details in our doctire as it is to their understanding of the official Church doctrine.
I could make the same observation about many other questions.
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Because I was going for a 100% Mormon score. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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