I wanted to avoid posting fluff in this thread, because I didn't want to buoy it to the top of the list unless I felt like what I was saying was important, but now I've gone and done it anyway.
Dang.
Hatcrack indeed.
-o-
::shakes fist at Scott::
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
I do think it's a little discourteous to speak of someone behind their back like this. Explaining she left and pointing out the thread are fine, but rehashing the argument seems a little unfair to me.
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mothertree, interestingly enough, my firend's PhD dissertation in social psych (the one I keep posting for volunteers for) is on people categorization. Cool stuff (even if I don't understand the half of it).
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Dag, is it rehashing the argument if she didn't stay long enough for it to be discussed at all? I mean, there was the wolf children thing, then poof! She was gone.
I mean, it's not like she was forced out. Almost everyone in that thread was begging her to stay. Are we supposed to never again discuss the things she's said, now that she's deliberately removed herself from the community?
Maybe we are.
This whole thing leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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Honestly, I didn't get the whole cool thing, and I still don't, because we seemed to be having two completely unrelated conversations. I was saying that while we should generally strive to be welcoming to new members, 1) that welcome did not particularly need to extend itself to members whose only contribution so far had been rudeness, 2) being welcoming did not equal a free pass from ever being questioned or an exemption from disagreement, and, yes, 3) we have expectations for discourse here, and having those expectations is not intrinsically morally equivalent to being unwelcoming. Anne Kate's response was disappointment at how much we now valued being cool. I didn't get it then and I don't get it now.
(You'll notice I have started to cultivate the habit of directly addressing the person I'm responding to. Hopefully, this will cut down on my EDITs to clarify. )
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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quote:Dag, is it rehashing the argument if she didn't stay long enough for it to be discussed at all? I mean, there was the wolf children thing, then poof! She was gone.
I mean, it's not like she was forced out. Almost everyone in that thread was begging her to stay. Are we supposed to never again discuss the things she's said, now that she's deliberately removed herself from the community?
Maybe we are.
I don't know. Certainly, responding in that thread would be perfectly valid.
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*ponders* What if a link was posted in that thread referring to this thread? They'd be self referential to each other then. There was a good reason that this thread was started and quite naturally refers to that thread.
I don't think anyone's intent was to make behind the back comments on this thread. In fact everyone I've seen posting has basically made the identical comments previously to ak directly before she left. It isn't like anyone is actually trying to cover new territory, but more the community and individuals trying to come to grips with their own emotions and sense of loss or guilt or relief, or for that matter, guilt about feeling relieved.
Dag, I don't tend to think I've posted anything in this thread to be ashamed of. I don't think I have badmouthed anne kate. I described the circumstances of her leaving, and how it made me feel.
I think talking negatively about people behind their back is definitely wrong. I don't really think I've done that. You seemed to feel I did wrong in the original dispute, and so I wonder if you're referring to me again here. I don't know that "rehashing" the argument is equivalent to talking about anne kate behind her back, or discourteous. If by "rehash" you mean covering the same material again, well, heck, we do that all the time around here. It's not generally considered welcoming to tell people they should confine their comments on a topic to a single already-existent thread. Why is this different?
This thread is about Anne Kate's departure. I was very hurt by the manner in which she did this. Do I have to forever keep that inside now that she has left, because to do otherwise would be to talk about her behind her back?
A thread with Anne Kate's name on it is hardly talking about her behind her back. If it's okay to post in the original thread, why not here? What's the distinction?
I have always valued your opinion, so if you think I'm doing wrong, I will certainly pay attention. I may not, in the end, agree, but that's not in the contract.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I didn't say that to chastize or get people to change any posts already made so much as to get people to think about it before adding more to the thread. In fact, I don't think any one post could really cross the threshold - it's the conversation as a whole, and the line is certainly fuzzy.
To tell you the truth, I'm somewhat uncomfortable with this conversation as well, but I feel that if it is going to take place, I'd rather be in it than out of it, if that makes any sense. So I feel quite conflicted each time I bump it. I felt the same about Papa Moose's thread. (Which is why I'd rather keep having the conversation here instead of bumping that thread.)
Eventually it will die, though, and my presence or absence likely won't impact the timing much.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Icky I know. And honestly I wouldn't do the cross post myself, though I contemplated it. It has already been bumped once today. I figure it would have to be someone who *did* have their feelings more directly effected than I did, who should do the cross post if they feel it is the right thing to do.
I think talking about feelings is legitimate. Especially feelings about what happens here at Hatrack.
Ralphie talked somewhere about people sometimes crossing a personal line, and airing too much inappropriate information that causes her to go into smackdown mode. There is a lot we do share here, but yes sometimes intimate (in a non-sexual sense) stuff crosses a line. The threshold is different for everyone.
But if we draw a fence around an already subjective line then no one would convey deep emotions around here either. And those are important to the community.
So I think you discussing your hurt feelings has validity. You've been very careful where you mentioned them. It isn't like you've spread dirty laundry over 20 threads to get revenge. You've only mentioned them pretty much in the context of the this thread and the other, where introspective conversation on the topic, is the topic.
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I didn't really know AK and I had stopped paying attention to the Papa Mouse thread when she left, but I think talking about it here is a public forum is more honest and fair to her then discussing it on AIM or e-mail. As people have said before, if she wants to come in a defend herself or discuss the issue further she can. On AIM or e-mail she couldn't.
Posts: 1015 | Registered: Aug 2004
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Good lord, see what happens when I leave to go to the store with my kids?
Ok, to those that are uncomfortable about discussing this - sorry. Probably my fault. I should have stayed out of the thread.
quote:You don't have to defend yourself to me.
How was I being defensive? I simply explained myself and acknowledged that yes, I knew aka wasn't here, but Zeugma brought up an issue, Elizabeth asked a question, then you made some points and I answered them.
As for the cat thing - I didn't bring that up in order to refer to the incident that occurred back then. Zeugma mentioned cats, and I used it as an example when I related the "wolf children" incidents to my comments in the flag burning thread. That's all I intended.
God forbid we would re-hash that. It has been years, and I sincerely regret that I ever let aka upset me over that silliness. I should have ignored it then and I have no wish to hash it all out again now.
As for whether we should be talking about it or not - it's a public forum. If you don't want people talking about you or about your opinions, don't post. I can understand out of courtesy not talking about people who aren't around - but then again no one is forcing anybody not to read this forum (except those that have been banned, and we never hesitated to talk about them that I remember)
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:I think talking about it here is a public forum is more honest and fair to her then discussing it on AIM or e-mail. As people have said before, if she wants to come in a defend herself or discuss the issue further she can.
I don't agree. I think saying negative things about her when she's not here and we KNOW she'd be hurt by it would only reinforce her impression.
Anne Kate is NOT going to come charging back and defend herself. She isn't - she isn't that type of person, she's easily hurt, and she wouldn't understand. Maybe for someone else saying that public is better would be true, but not for her.
quote:If you don't want people talking about you or about your opinions, don't post.
You mean talking negatively about you or your opinions. No one is objecting to the hug thread.
That's the point. That's why she doesn't post anymore. She's too sensitive and too fragile to take being handled at all roughly - more sensitive than even most people can handle, and more sensitive than usual joking and courtesy require.
I do NOT blame Icarus at all. I saw the whole thing, and I thought it was funny and fine. But Anne Kate didn't. She wasn't being melodramatic or going for attention or anything - she really didn't. She's too sensitive for that. That's not a judgment - she just is. Maybe Hatrack got too big for that to be apparent to everyone, and maybe when it's that big, it's too hard to remember who can and can't handle certain topics and certain normal amount of joking. That's why it's okay if she leaves if she has - maybe Hatrack just isn't the place anymore. I think it's important to understand why.
[ February 02, 2005, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Lady Jane ]
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Belle, to be clear, I'm not sure that there is a "fault" here, or that it's yours if there is. This thread is happening because some people missed the incident and are genuinely curious. I'm posting in it, as are you, I imagine, because I am involved and want things to be portrayed accurately as I see them.
Anne Kate was a valued and respected long-time member of this forum, and I think it would be only natural for there to be a backlash against whoever "drove her away," and that's why I feel the need to keep my side of things where people can see it, as long as there's going to be discussion about her at all.
So nobody is personally making me uncomfortable, least of all you, Belle. Rather, the situation can't help but be an uncomfortable one, probably for most of us.
Posts: 13680 | Registered: Mar 2002
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I just wanted to say that I never had any reason to think Icarus or anyone drove aka away. For some reason, Icarus seems to have born the brunt of a lot of this, but I never saw anything he did that would provoke any kind of back lash.
Icarus, I think you have been very considerate and tactful in all that you have said. It's one of your best qualities and one of the reason I admire you.
I'm going to stop now before I hug you or something.
Posts: 4625 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:You mean talking negatively about you or your opinions. No one is objecting to the hug thread.
But you can't have it your way all the time. You can't post opinions, defend the helpless or whatever it is you want to do and expect that you only get positive feedback. One thing I like about here is that we hold each other accountable for what we say. Sometimes you get your feelings hurt, sometimes people will even tell you "You're being a jerk here, stop it." I've had people tell me that, and when I looked back on it - they were right. It hurt my feelings, and in those cases I really was defensive, but when I calmed down and looked at it I could see that my behavior was out of line. That happens. When you're among friends, you should expect that any real friend is going to call you on boorish behavior. And when you talk about as many different things as we do, and have so many posts flying out there with our names on it - you're going to get called on something at some time.
I guess what I'm saying is if you're too fragile to deal with anyone being critical of you, then someplace like this probably isn't the best place for you. In that case, she was probably wise to leave. Regardless, it was her decision and I think it's blatantly unfair to try and "blame" others for what she did.
And I'm not being defensive here because I really didn't have anything to do with this whole thing, I didn't even post in Papa Moose's thread until after she had already made her goodbye post and I only posted to speak out for Icarus against what I thought was unwarranted criticism of him.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:I guess what I'm saying is if you're too fragile to deal with anyone being critical of you, then someplace like this probably isn't the best place for you.
Congratulations. She did. She left, because it is too rough for her.
I think there is room for the sensitive and articulate, espeicially when we love them.
Anyone else thinking of the words to Starry, Starry Night?
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I can't say I like the idea of looking at her as an angelic martyr driven away by the cruelty of the community here.
She said some mean, hurtful things to people here, repeatedly, over the years. She deliberately lashed out and tried to hurt people, often when they had done little to earn such hatred.
On the whole, she was kind and loving to almost everyone here, but she was by no means perfect. If you got on her bad side, she threw some pretty nasty stuff your way.
kat, your "Congratulations, you jerks drove her away" tone is really uncalled for. No one here drove her away. She chose to leave, for reasons that aren't particularly clear to anyone here. The idea that we're all so mean and insensitive that she just couldn't stand being in our presence is ridiculous, especially when you read all of the people, including the people disagreeing with her, telling her how much they cared about her and asking her not to leave!
Posts: 1681 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote: She's too sensitive and too fragile to take being handled at all roughly - more sensitive than even most people can handle, and more sensitive than usual joking and courtesy require.
Okay, I will admit I don't know ak as well as many/most of you. And I will admit that you can't always tell what's going on inside by what a person shows.
I still can't help remembering the discussion about defending your personal space, and her posts about reacting with physical violence towards someone who encroached on hers without first asking them to back off. I will note that I did not critizing her decision on that thread, and even said that while it was something I wouldn't do I could understand her reasoning.
I have a hard time equating someone who's capable of throwing a hard elbow to the gut of a guy who's by her own admission just trying to be friendly with her, and then pretending it was an accident, to the person kat is decribing above as being that incredibly emotionally fragile.
I'm not saying you're completely off track, kat. I'm just asking if maybe you're taking your analysis a bit too far.
Posts: 7954 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I DON'T think anyone drove her away. I think she is too sensitive for the joking and teasing and nitpicking that is the norm of behavior here. When Hatrack was smaller and she posted more, there was more of a buffer. It's bigger now, and that means it may not be the place anymore. That's not a judgment, either on Hatrack or on Anne Kate.
Posts: 1163 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Neither kat nor Belle nor Icarus nor Zeguma has been snarky on this thread while expressing their own opionons on the original topic. And I like you all, so don't start in on each other or I'll borrow celia's cricket bat, or Ralphie's whip.
You are all human and you've all had your differences with each in the past, but you are all bigger than that, especially on this thread. We don't need to rehash every argument that has happened for the last gazillion years in detail. A few general references is fine, but don't get defensive for what happened eons ago.
ElJay, I do agree with kat that aka was/is fragile. Sometimes the most fragile people are the ones that react the most violently because they are afraid of getting hurt now, like they have been hurt in the past. There isn't a necessary dichotomy as you are drawing it.
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Telpy, sometimes Vulcanization has its uses.
However, I'd wager that every single one of the people I called out above, has more compassion and depth of emotion than I do. They feel more deeply, and so they hurt more, but also feel more joy than I do.
To use a bad math analogy, my sine curve of life is more of a wobble, while they have higher peaks and lower valleys. But hey, it takes all kinds of us to make the world, and as I said, sometimes being a Vulcan comes in handy. It can make me difficult to get along with at times too, because I don't see things as emotionally as most other people.
I frustrated Tom Davidson at Kama Con for exactly that reason, when I refused to intervene in a situation where feelings were being somewhat hurt, becuase I saw the sticky situation levelling itself out in the end, which it did. I also didn't have the physical resources to spend on it at that point in time, and probably selfishly made the judgement call that I wasn't going to do anything about it.
I believe every person above knows I care about them individually as does ak. Belle was the first to welcome me to hatrack. I talk to Icky on IM the most, Aja and I have difficult grandmothers, and are doing home rennovation, and Kat and I drastically disagree on lots of issues, and yet have become fast friends. That is hatrack working at its best...
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Hey now, I'm doing my darnedest to avoid snarkiness.
Like I said, getting upset over this kind of stuff is silly - we're adults for Pete's sake. I think I'm beginning to regret even more ever opening this thread.
However, while I may not jump in and defend people wherever I see injustice (I don't look good enough in tights to be a superhero) I do tend to speak my mind when I see something that bothers me, and I think some of the characterization has been unfair - especially what was sent Icarus' way. Not that Icarus needs me to speak on his behalf, but I think there was a trend of posts that insinuated the mean nasty "wolf children" drove poor aka away, and not enough focus on the fact that the people she referred to as wolf children didn't deserve to be characterized like that.
That's all I really wanted to say, and the only point I wanted to make.
All right - now I'm off to church, where I will probably have to deal with more than my share of snarkiness. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Belle, I know you are trying. I think all of you are trying. I think most of you *have* been the most deeply hurt in the past, and it is more raw for all of you as a result.
All of you 4 are basically saying the same thing in different ways. Which is percieved more or less snarky to others. I don't think the intent in any of the posts discussing aka has been snarkiness at all. If anything I think we are bending overboard with sensitivity and everyone's feelings are more fragile than normal which is why snarkiness has been implied where there was none.
posted
Well drown me in a river and call me a wolf-child. Anne Kate's gone? Aw shucks, I was really hoping to read more of her huggly cuddly insanity and mindless praise of tripe.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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Yes, and I'm making sure to get my daily value of asbestos for my lengthy stay at Hotel Hades.
Posts: 4753 | Registered: May 2002
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PC, have I told you what a special person you are? We're all beautiful, unique snowflakes, each with our very own special gifts, but you're the most beautiful and unique of all.
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The trouble with being easily offended/sensitive(speaking for my own experience) is that it requires the casting of others as villains. Victims perpetuate a triad of victim, villain, and rescuer. But every now and then, as happened with me, the victim makes a villain of someone who was not really being villainous and so no one comes to the rescue. Then what?
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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Anne Kate is just a very opinionated person and believes very strongly in that what she believes is right is right. It can be very hard for some people to take criticism to things that they hold dear. I know that I've seen Anne Kate lash out rather harshly at certain ideas and then be very hurt when someone does the same to her. No ones perfect you are simply as you are. I'm much better about it than I used to be, but then I read some of the things that I've written and they come off.. much more hard line than I wanted them to. Anyhow though I say.. we kind of drop this in a sense. I think if you honesrtly really know Anne Kate well you would semi-understand the whole thing and if you don't then maybe you honestly don't need to know.
Posts: 1753 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:He always left the Giant's body quickly and when he got to the playground, the children were always there, wolven and mocking; they wore faces that he knew. Sometimes Peter and sometimes Bonzo, sometimes Stilson and Bernard; just as often, though, the savage creatures were Alai and Shen, Dink and Petra; sometimes one of them would be Valentine, and in his dream he shoved her under the water and waited for her to drown. She writhed in his hands, fought to come up, but at last was still.
I guess a label is what we make of it. I do think that the wolf children were one symbol of the Buggers in this book, who Ender was only able to destroy because he loved them enough to understand them.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I didn't get it then and I don't get it now. ![[Wall Bash]](graemlins/wallbash.gif)
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because I really didn't have anything to do with this whole thing, I didn't even post in Papa Moose's thread until after she had already made her goodbye post and I only posted to speak out for Icarus against what I thought was unwarranted criticism of him.
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for PC!
