posted
Does breastfeeding have that large of an impact on the bonding between mother and child?
I ask because my mother suffered severe post-partum depression following my birth, although of course, since it was so long ago, it wasn't called that. It was always said that she had a nervous breakdown. I know I was neglected - not fed or changed regularly, not held, not played with, all the rest of that, and my mother and I didn't bond at all. On the other hand, she is a bit of a freak, so it's not a loss. I'm just curious.
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posted
Well, it's helped me bond, certainly. At least when the baby is nursing, you feel like you have a purpose, and the baby needs you specifically, and when they're eating, they're not screaming, at least usually. I think research has been done on it. But depression can be a really big factor whether you breastfeed or not.
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posted
How safe is it to breast-feed on medications? Specifically, antidepressants? Going off of them probably won't be an option for me, especially if I end up with post-partum problems.
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posted
My sister couldn't breastfeed either of her babies for that specific reason. Her particular antidepressant is not safe for babies to consume, but I don't know if that applies to all antidepressants, or what. And with her, she was severe enough that she could not be without antidepressants any longer - her pregnancy was difficult enough because of her depression.
If you go to the manufacturers site and look up your antidepressant, it will probably say there in among the side-effects and contraindications.
Edit to add: If my mother had severe wack-job post partum depression (um, she actually tried to kill me), and my sister had post-partum depression, and my mother's mother had severe post-partum depression, that kinda makes it more likely that I would, too, doesn't it?
posted
Yeah, that's why I don't want to go off my antidepressants. Not even for the gestation, actually. I hope I can find something baby-safe that works for me if I ever want to have a kid.
As for the breast-feeding bags, why not try to raise consciousness so that women can put them together for other women as baby-shower gifts? I know that if I were having a baby for the first time, I would certainly appreciate some useful accessories. If the gift-giver isn't sure the mother plans to breast feed, a few things could at least be included with a variety of other useful baby items. (For instance, include lanolin in a basket with diaper cream and baby shampoo).
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
quid, my friend who failed at breastfeeding because of bad handling would not let her baby hold the bottle so the baby could play with hands. I made my friend more responsive to the baby as well, since she was actively feeding the child rather than simply handing her a bottle.
Belle, with much respect to your experiences, might I suggest that the sharing of negative experiences causes many similar stories to be shared in sympathy. This would cause a bias in your sample of LLL and other breastfeeding advocates.
Humans, on the whole, prefer sharing negative stories. And the internet is more likely to bring out bad experiences rather than positive ones. For instance, one might think that homebirth and unassisted childbirth were very common by doing a search on natural childbirth (looking for positive non-medicated experiences in the hospital). And in researching lasik on the internet, one might presume that it was a highly risky procedure, when in fact there are hundreds of very satisfied individuals cured of their poor eyesight for every single person who had a severe problem. They simply don't share their stories because they've gone on with life.
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote:Kwea knows like 8 people who can't breastfeed. Which makes me wonder if they all really can't or if some took permission from the legitimate medical conditions of their friends.
No, I have know 6-8 women professionally, as a man who screened patients as an EMT/Medic while in the Army. Some I know personally, some were the wives of other soldiers...and some I had no idea who they were. A lot of women can't breastfeed because of medical conditions that require meds that could be dangerous to the baby. Some are not physically able to do so. Some don;t produce enough milk to do it exclusively.
Why do you have such a hard time believing me, because I am a man? Why do those women need to
quote: take permission
as you very rudely put it? It is their choice, and they don't have to make up a story to justify any such choice.
quote: I don't have a problem with people having a medical situation. I am just dubious when people who know that person come down with the same thing in large numbers.
Where did I say they all said they couldn't due to the same reasons?
I was a Medic for 3 years, and I didn't always work screening patients, but I did more than a few shifts covering the doctors appointments. Some of the better Doctors would let me stay in the room and teach me things, providing the patients didn't mind, so I was there when the Doctor told three of them that they shouldn't nurse, and I watched them be very disappointed about it....they WANTED to, but for various reasons couldn't.
It really isn't as rare as you think, trust me. The Doctor was always in favor of nursing when possible, but he gave us many reasons why a mother might not be able to, or why nursing might not be the best choice for some.
Some I heard about myself, and others I had read it in their charts, when they came in with problems...they would tell me why they came in so that I could fill out the paperwork for the Doctor.
There may have been other women over those 3 years who I didn't know about, because they weren't comfortable talking to me about it....I don't know. They provided me with the info they wanted to provide...nothing stopped them from not mentioning it to me and then bringing it up in private with the Doctor.
What I do know is that some mothers can't or shouldn't nurse, and it happens more than you think.....even if you don't believe me. Not a majority, not even a large minority; but it happens.
posted
I'm curious what reasons the doctors give that a mother can't nurse. I know about meds, and doctors tend to discourage it if one is pregnant again too.
But what other reasons are there for a medical practitioner to say that a mother shouldn't nurse?
Posts: 3495 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
Mainly certain medications, but there are also some infections transmitted through breastmilk, such as HIV. That is considered a contraindication to breastfeeding, unless it is the only reliable source of nutrition for the baby (such as in some developing areas where the water is heavily contaminated and there is no refrigeration available). We do know, though, that a child can be prevented from contracting the disease during childbirth and yet pick it up through breastmilk.
Hepatitis B might [emphasis on might] be another (and this is endemic in some developing countries) -- the latter is controversial, because although the baby would have likely been exposed in utero, the mother may be a chronic carrier while the baby may be able to clear the infection.
[Hepatitis B infections can be acute or chronic, and it would be a shame to reinfect the child. The child's immune system doesn't really take off on its own until after 6 months of age, and so I was trained that it cannot be relied upon to fully respond to some vaccinations. Having had the first of the Hepatitis B vaccinations is better than not, but it is not prudent (I was taught) to rely on that to cover a deliberate exposure to live virus. Just that first vaccination at birth does seem to confer up to 90% immunity to the virus, and the CDC does recommend that all women with Hepatitis B breastfeed, as they believe the benefits outweigh the risks. It is certainly something which should be discussed between an individual patient and her physician in an calm, clear, matter-of-fact way, with an accurate representation of the benefits, risks, and current recommendations.]
Active tuberculosis in the mother is another reason not to breastfeed, as is the continuing use of certain recreational substances. With active tuberculosis, the issue is one of exposure to the mother's breath and sputum, not her milk, so expressed milk can be used.
Some babies have metabolic disorders such as galactosemia, and they must be fed specific formulae, because they cannot processs the typical milk proteins. In this case, expressed milk will be harmful to the baby. These are rare metabolic disorders, but they do occur.
Breastfeeding is so important and so undersupported in the medical community. There are, however, some times when it is not safe for the baby. These are generally rare but important to identify in individual cases.
I would like to add that most medications are compatible with breastfeeding, and that many doctors do not know that. As a result, many doctors routinely tell mothers not to breastfeed when they are prescribing a medication to a mother. Sometimes a doctor has even told a mother to wean when the medication she is taking has been approved for use during breastfeeding by the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP).
If a woman is prescribed a medication and told not to breastfeed, I strongly suggest that she consult a lactation consultant or La Leche League Leader - they have up-to-date information about what meds are compatible with breatfeeding, and what the concerns while taking a med and breastfeeding. While they cannot recommend or endorse a med, they can give a mother information to take back to her doctor.
Thomas Hale is an expert on breastfeeding pharmacology. He has been studying it for many years, and his book is a great resource, used by many health care prefessionals.
[ February 09, 2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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Yesterday when getting my prenatal vitamins, I saw a supplement by Similac. I assumed they had simply gotten into the prenatl business, so I picked it up to see how complete a vitamin it was. It was a dollar more than the other vitamins. So it should be better, or at least the same thing, right? In fact, it was simply a DHA/ARA supplement. They have their fancy name for it called Lipil. Softgels kept in packets like a cold medicine, about 24 doses. So, well... maybe they have decided to make money off breastfeeding.
Except they are being a little devious, here. At the same time as they are making money, they are sending a message: "Mother's milk is not good enough without our specially designed supplement, which, BTW, can already be found in our formula."
quote: The DHA is extracted from fermented microalgae and the ARA is extracted from soil fungus. The breast does not use either of these items to manufacture its fatty acids, and these sources are new to the food chain. Each of the processed oils has its own fatty acid composition, adding a number of fatty acids to formula that already are contained in the plant oils mixed into the base formula. Human fatty acids are structurally different from manufactured ones from plant sources. Human fatty acids interact with each other in a special matrix.
I did a bit of research. I came up with an interesting list summarizing studies about DHA and pregnant and lactating women. While I admit there was some good information, it was the way the info was presented that irritated me. Surely this was some literature some formula company had created to hand out to health care professionals and other concerned parties. I was close. In fact, it was created by Martak, the same company responsible for making the DHA/ARA supplement for Ross, manufacturer of Similac. I'm sure they are quite happy to let the Ross people use it in their lobbying.
BTW, it turned out that I was ahead of the game. I'd already known the benefits of Omega 3 fatty acids and was taking fish oil supplements (since I'm not overly fond of eating fish everyday) Interestingly enough, that little 5 dollar bottle of fish oil gels contained more than twice as much naturally occuring DHA/ARA as the Similac Lipil supplement.
Very funny side note: in my online research, I found a google had for Omega Fatty Acids Sale: New and used Omega Fatty Acids.
heehee
And another note: I'm not writing this against mothers who can't breastfeed, or even those who choose not to. My really big beef is with the coorporations who consistantly mislead health professionals and mothers.
posted
I understand, and I think it is a great thing to do if you can.
I do think it has a huge impact on bonding with the baby, but it isn't the sole way of bonding. Mothers who can't breastfeed can bond just as well, IMO.
Another reason some women are advised not to breatfeed is that the baby cannot process the mothers milk, like my neice Logan. She would throw all of it up constantly, and had to go on formula in order to get any type of food at all.
Also, a lot of mothers simply don;t produce enough milk, so they have to supplement their breastfeeding with formula. This is FAR more common that not being physically able to breastfeed, or being advised not to do so due to disease or meds. It still isn't common, but it is not really that rare. Jenni has a friend who is in that boat right now, and feels horrible about it.
posted
Not having enough milk can indeed be a serious problem. And, as I understand it, for some women, or in some situations, there is not much that can be done to increase the milk supply.
However. For many women, the "not enough milk" syndrome most certainly CAN be treated. Increase fluids, make sure you're getting adequate nutrition, do your absolute best to get enough rest (this is REALLY HARD for a new mom, but can be easier if dad helps a lot), and nurse (or pump) as frequently as you can for a day or two.
If it can possibly be managed, a weekend spent mostly in bed, nursing 'round the clock, can really do the trick.
Sometimes this is insufficient. And sometimes this simply is impossible to do. But supplementation tends to cause the milk supply to reduce further, resulting in a vicious cycle that ends in weaning -- far sooner than may have been planned. If that's what's best for your specific nursing dyad, great. But "not enough milk" is far too often pushed as a reason to supplement when there may well be other alternatives.
Make educated choices. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
*wonders if anyone saw her post about "not enough milk" at the bottom of page 2*
I think Rivka is absolutely correct. In a lot of cases, not having enough milk can be corrected - but you have to have a dr. willing to brainstorm ideas and not give up.
posted
Heh. It was, suffice it to say, not a good situation. I guess a miserable marriage is good for weight loss. Still makes me wonder why to this day when the dr. obviously had a waaaaay under-weight breastfeeding momma in his office he didn't ask about nutrition.
space opera
errr - the miserable marriage was with my ex-husband. Didn't wanna go smearin' Mr. Opera's reputation.
[ February 09, 2005, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Space Opera ]
Posts: 2578 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I hyperlactate, and still have to formula-supplement, just because my daughter's metabolism and activity level are so high, she just didn't get enough hindmilk. It happens to the best of us. Many mothers who can't produce enough milk give up completely, though, and I submit education could change that, too; there's a benefit to nursing even minimally, and a SNS can help with that.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
kq, from what I've read, it's more likely that the problem actually is BECAUSE (not in spite of) hyperlactation. Your milk is adapted for hot climates, I guess -- wanna move to Arizona?
Opera, having lost a lot of weight the year I was trying to not get divorced, I can empathize. Odd how marital strife does that. Every other time I've been stressed (including this year) I've put on weight. Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
rivka, it's not the hyperlactation; she just likes to nibble. I've tried to change her habits, and that's helped some, but she'll only take so much before she wants to run off and play and look at things again. Even if she didn't, she might need a supplement; there's a family history, see.
My mom also hyperlactated, and I was the only one of her 4 who needed supplementation; I nursed for 20 mins. on each side, then when she started pumping at 2 mos. would take 12 oz. of pumped milk at a sitting, and still needed a supplement because I have a high metabolism. My dad was the same way as a baby-- the only one out of 6 who needed a supplement. And guess what? His mom also had to be supplemented. So, not really a surprise to me.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
*nod* Although supplementation used to be more pushed by doctors than it is now. It's now more realized by the medical community that it is NORMAL for breastfed babies to be leaner than their bottle-fed peers.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
In all cases, no doctor was consulted; it's just been passed down from generation to generation that there's at least one baby who needs to be supplemented in every generation of this family. Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Actually, KQ, there are ways to deal with the problem you describe without supplementing. A lactation consultant could help with something like that.
Oh, and I just want to mention to everyone who has discussed it: a true inabilility to produce enough milk for your baby is very rare - in most cases the problem can be solved with help from a qualified lactation counselor.
[ February 10, 2005, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Ela ]
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posted
Um. I followed the advice of a lactation consultant, and she did improve a little, but still decided to supplement.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Christy, that's what I weighed when I had my son...105 when I got pregnant, 110 afterward, though it didn't take long to get back to my pre-preg weight.
And then I turned 30. And started working from home. Those two factors were worse than two pregnancies for weight gain.
I'm still trying to lose those lbs. *sigh*
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
ok so, my mom tried to breastfeed with both my sister and I, but could not produce enough milk either time. I seem to be of average intelligence and I think I'm pretty ok health wise. My best friend (and Made of Honor) had a baby boy December 23rd. Ethan is beautiful! My mother had to explain to Joy that it was ok to give him formula as the Doctor told her to since she wasn't producing enough milk. Joy has plenty of support and help with Ethan. She is super aware of her nutritional needs and practically anal about doing everything she can to produce milk and remain healthy...... so what's the problem? She is extremely depressed and believes she is a "bad mother" because she is physically unable to produce enough milk for her son. She has been told by so many women that it's sooooo important to breastfeed, and that she should NOT use formula! So she thinks she's a bad mother. Nice. I am all for breastfeeding. I am totally against people making others feel that they are horrible people because they can't or don't breastfeed. Is it right for a health care "professional" or a member of LLL to tell a new mother that they "must be doing something wrong" if they aren't producing enough milk? Is it right for another mother to say much the same thing? I am ticked off because my best friend feels like there's something wrong with her, that she's not good enough...because of what other people say. I can't stand to see her hurt, especially when there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with her, and her son will be just fine...in fact he will be healthy because he is being given formula to supplement his feedings when she can't produce enough milk. She is continuing to breastfeed whenever possible, and she uses a pump when she leaves him with her mom or sister too, but if she read this thread, (and I mean no offense to anyone because of their experiences or beliefs on the subject), she would be devastated. So, when discussing this topic, please remember that there are people who may read this and feel horrible pain because they "can't or won't" breastfeed. Posts: 325 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
Hindmilk, which has the most "weight gaining" attributes to it, is richer, etc., - and is produced primarily at night.
I suspect primarily at night has more to do with sleeping mama's not torn between "things to do" and lengthy periods of nursing, than with the actual time of day.
Another thing to remember about milk production is that a lot of it depends not only on the mom's personal health, but also her ability to relax, and allow herself to set long enough to get through all the stages of each nursing session's milk production. So, I suspect that when mom's allow nursing on demand through the night, the production remains steady and high.
A frequent mistake pediatricians make is to recommend that mom's regulate nursing like they would bottle feeding. This negatively impacts milk production -
Production of milk has much to do with demand - demand has to do with the function of suckling.
Unfortunately, we live in a culture that makes other demands on it's parents - demands that cut in on the sort of time commitment "nursing" makes.
And it IS a commitment. Yes, latching baby on to the breast is infinitely easier than mixing formula and preparing bottles - but the nature of breastmilk means longer feeding sessions, more often.
Posts: 5609 | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Probably because she already thinks tha she is doing something wrong, even though she has followed the advice she received from LLL, but when she said it wasn't working they made her feel like crap about it, blaming her for failing to produce enough milk.
They eevn told her that she must not "really" be following all their directions, because if she was she would be producing more by now.
I wasn't there with her, so I don't know how much of that is her own feelings of inadequcy and how much of that was said vs implied...but she isn't going back to them, and judging by some of the other comments about them I don't think this is an isolated incident.
Too bad Ela isn't up here in MA (although her daughter is...Hi JaneX!), because I am sure that she would have been a FAR better choice than this woman was, and she would have been for more understanding.
posted
my wife, who is a stay-at-home mom, was unable to breastfeed our first daughter, regardless of what she tried - the baby wouldn't latch on. she ended up pumping and was miserable and blamed herself for being unable to properly nurse. the LLL freaks were less than helpful.
now, our second daughter breastfeeds like a champ, growing and everything. my wife has had no problems with it, but gets nothing out of it. she actually doesn't enjoy it at all. the only reason she is breastfeeding is because i don't want to pay for formula and she will NEVER pump again.
she has been very unhappy about the attitude that many women appear to hold that a mother that doesn't breastfeed is less than a woman that does. i'm glad she hasn't had a chance to read this thread, because that's exactly the vibe that i got reading this.
Posts: 494 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
You know - I haven't gotten any "vibes" that anyone is looked down upon or thought less of for whatever their choice in feeding their infant is, anywhere in this thread, at all.
I am seeing a lot of folks decide that somehow they are being treated as "less than" just because other folks won't jump on the "I hate LLL" bandwagon based on their personal experiences.
Okay - everyone!
Take a deep breath, hold it for five seconds, release, repeat. Shake out your hands. Say to yourself, with love, respect, affection:
"I make the choices that are right for me and my children in my life. These choices may or may not match up with other people's choices, and that's okay. We all walk different paths, we all have things to teach one another, and we all have things to learn from one another."
Now - let's try this again.
The AAP advises that breastmilk is optimal for the first two years of life.
Groovy.
This has the potential to have some very interesting social, economic, political, and health consequences in the United States.
Soem folks have personal experiences with breastfeeding. Some folks don't. Some folks have done a lot of research. Some folks haven't. Some folks have worked extensively with moms and babies. Some haven't.
Together, we probably know a lot about the issue. But that means we have to share our information in non-judgemental ways - on both sides - and we have to remember that just because one person experienced it one way, does not mean that all people have experienced it that way. And that's good - diversity of experience is important.
posted
If anything, I saw this thread as educational and all about informed choices. I haven't seen anyone jumping over anyone who doesn't or can't breastfeed, so I'm also not sure where that vibe comes from.
I'm reading this thread because I find it interesting and I'm learning a lot. I may never have to use the information myself, and even if I did, I honestly don't know how I'd feel about breastfeeding for two years. I'm not sure I could last six months, myself. But judgements? I've seen people here come to the defense of those who can't or don't. Posts: 8355 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote:Too bad Ela isn't up here in MA (although her daughter is...Hi JaneX!), because I am sure that she would have been a FAR better choice than this woman was, and she would have been for more understanding.
That is the soultion...we need more Ela's!
Wow, what a nice compliment, Kwea. Posts: 5771 | Registered: Nov 2000
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I don't have a problem with anything here so far, for the most part people here have been very helpful about offering information about this subject.
I DO think that some people seem to think that just because they had no problem breatfeeding that no one will, and that if there is a problem then it MUST be the mothers fault.
I also got a vibe that some people didn't seem to think I knew what I was saying, although I hope I have cleared that up. I am not your normal guy who is afraid to discuss these types of things, adn I have a lot of hands-on experience with these type of "womans issues" compared to most guys. I know that not everyone here knew that before, so it might have been easier to assume I was either
a) exaggerating
or
b) Just plain wrong
I don;t claim to know all the stats, adn I am not against breastfeeding...when possible I think it is the best choice for the baby.
I just wanted to let people know that there were women out there who CAN'T do it, adn to remind people that it is a personal choice that is highly dependant on individual lifestyles.
quid, should it become an issue, please be aware that while it is recommended to nurse at least a year, the majority of the benefits to both mom and baby seem to be within the first six months. And a substantial number within the first six weeks.
I know at least a couple women who decided (before the birth, although with the notion that they'd do longer if they wanted) to nurse six months, and were very happy with that decision. I know others who had to be back at work at six weeks, and felt they could not practically pump -- but nursed for the six weeks.
I think every woman who chooses, with an much information as she can get, the decision that works best for her, her baby, and her family, is a great mom. And anyone who feels they should be doing anything other than offering information and support . . . well, should realize how much they are actually acting counter to their cause.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
rivka, they did a study on weight of mothers who breast and bottle (of formula) fed at different months. The benefits to the mother as far as weight loss statistically didn't really show up until 9 mos., and maxed out at between 12 and 15 months, depending on the woman. (Study was comparing mothers' average weight difference as compared to pre-pregnancy weight every month.) The bottle-feeding mothers actually weighed less until about 7 months, then they were even, the breast-feeding mothers then passed up the bottle-feeding mothers, on average.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
*nod* I didn't say all, I said most. I think focusing on the fact that it's best to nurse longer discourages those who might be willing to do so for a few months.
Anyway, I never lost weight nursing. Never had any appetite while pregnant, but was always ravenous while nursing. And weight-loss is not the main benefit to nursing moms, IMO, anyway. Prolactin (which is just wonderful stuff!) release, being forced to STOP and relax every few hours, bonding with baby, and all-natural BC (for some women) were far more important to me.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I agree with hoping that people will nurse their baby as long as they can, if possible. (We've already discussed the people who can't so please know I have them in mind, everyone.)
I was just pointing out one of the noticeable benefits that many women do get to experience. As you pointed out, though, this is on average, not for everyone.
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