posted
Morbo, I guess it does depend on your interpretation of "Thou shalt not bear false witness". I am sure a pretty decent case can be made for it not being an absolute prohibition against lying. The particular flavor of Christianity that I come from believes that the words of modern-day prophets and apostles hold the same weight, if not more than, the Bible, so there is a larger basis of evidence.
But it does seem to me a fairly general policy among teachers of religions both Eastern and Western to strongly encourage honesty.
KOM:
quote: Um, yes. And while a belief in God is not required to kill a bunch of people, it does make it so much easier to rationalise.
I understand that you believe this is true. I don't. It seems to *me* that if I didn't believe in God or an afterlife, that I would believe that I could avoid unpleasant consequences of my actions. It would be *easier* to rationalize killing. I just wouldn't be killing for religious reasons. And I am pretty confident that most wars were not *truly* motivated by religion but by far baser human desires--greed, power, etc. Though, an interesting side thought, you may believe that many religious leaders are motivated by those things. Though you probably don't think the followers of religion are.
(This may not be the case for Musilms who specifically believe that they must kill in order to please their God. But I recognize that the Muslims who feel this way are in the minority--I hope.)
Maybe some religious leaders have been motivated by greed and power. I will readily admit that in a society lacking in technology and/or education if someone wants to gain power over others, religion is an easy way to do it. But in this age, it is not so easy. People are more informed. They *are* more rational about their religious beliefs than they were in centuries past. This is a golden age for believers, where they can think for themselves, choose for themselves. I think things are better for it. But I do think that it results in more people departing from those beliefs and possibly (I say again, *possibly*) more people choosing to abandon virtues that are beneficial to society. This makes me sad.
You see the departure from religion as leading humanity to a brighter future. I see the combined educated, informed believers and educated, informed non-believers leading us to a brighter future. Hopefully we can all do our best to understand each other and get along.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
KoM, before we digress into a conversation about whether or not religious belief makes any sense, will you concede that you were being unnecessarily inflammatory? I'd like to get that nailed down first.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: Tell me then, do you believe that it is worthwhile to kill two hundred people if one soul is thereby saved for all eternity?
I can't answer that question without far, far more specific information. And even then I don't know that I would know for sure my answer. I come from a belief that people can embrace Christ in the next life but that it is better for them and others if they accept Christ in this life.
quote: while my examples were drawn from the Catholic church, they apply equally to any religion that believes you must know Christ to achieve salvation.
Now that is just silly. If these people did the dispicable things you claim, and from what I have seen from Dagonee I am not at all certain I know, they do *not* apply to other believers. They are things those specific people chose to do for their own reasons. How can that possibly apply to me or other believers, or even other Catholics?
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Oh, sorry, I see I wasn't clear. The question is : Suppose the missionaries are visiting a hitherto isolated village in the Amazonian jungle. They bring with them two gifts of European civilisation : The Gospels, and smallpox. (Or fill in whatever disease you choose, alcoholism will do.) The entire tribe dies, but one of them accepts baptism first and is saved. Is this a good thing? Should the missionaries be permitted to repeat their performace at the next village up the river?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think that these people are going to need to be in contact with this disease at some point and that the missionaries should do everything in their power to care for these people and ease the transition of the two cultures which must inevitably happen. I think that along the way, where appropriate, they should continue to share their gospel message.
Edit: Have you read OSC's excellent book "Pastwatch"? It addresses this issue far more beautifully than I could. I really like what he had to say on the subject.
posted
I think the hypothetical is bunk, framed in such a way as to make the priest look bad. He couldn't answer in a way that would work. "Yes, it was a good thing that 200 people died" or "No, God isn't as important as 200 lives".
Posts: 4089 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
Since both Creationist sources posted by KoM leave open the possibility of God-created life on other planets, how does discovery of life on Mars blow their theories out of the water?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Tch, five people posted while I was writing. I'll try to deal with all of you in turn :
PC, I did not and do not intend insult when I use 'cretinist' in quotes; I did and do intend insult when I use it without quotes. Take my word for it or not, as you choose.
quote:It seems to *me* that if I didn't believe in God or an afterlife, that I would believe that I could avoid unpleasant consequences of my actions. It would be *easier* to rationalize killing.
You could just as well rationalise it the other way. It's ok to kill X, even if God says it is wrong, because I will be punished for it. And they'll surely be taken up to heaven by a just and loving God. Humans are good at rationalising.
quote:They *are* more rational about their religious beliefs than they were in centuries past.
Could I suggest you take another look at those fundie websites I linked further up, and then consider that a large percentage of Americans apparently support this being taught in schools? And before you say that they are not representative, please note that they are numerous enough that school boards take notice of them.
TomD, I did not realise anyone here would take the c-word as an insult. Since this is apparently so, yes, I was being (unintentionally) unnecessarily inflammatory.
quote:SM, you are *so* right. This is one of those "soundbite" issues.
Well, that's a good way of dealing with a question you do not know how to answer. As it happens, the original question was not hypothetical, the author had watched this happen, and was talking to one of the missionaries responsible.
quote:Since both Creationist sources posted by KoM leave open the possibility of God-created life on other planets, how does discovery of life on Mars blow their theories out of the water?
As I observed in one of my later posts, that was probably a little optimistic.
Um, I just realised, if this is true, then it is the most momentuous scientific discovery, like, ever. And I derailed it into a religious thread. Oops. Sorry. Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Comrade KoM, your hypothetical depends on the beleiefs or assumptions of the answerer.
If you believe eternal salvation should be the ultimate goal of every Christian, then perhaps one saved soul is worth 200 deaths, as they would have died anyway.
If you don't share this belief, the missionaries would just be hastening death. It all depends on your POV.
posted
Yes, Morbo, that's just what I'm saying. Religion is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Well, that's a good way of dealing with a question you do not know how to answer.
Um, I answered it.
quote: You could just as well rationalise it the other way. It's ok to kill X, even if God says it is wrong, because I will be punished for it. And they'll surely be taken up to heaven by a just and loving God. Humans are good at rationalising.
Exactly. Humans are good at rationalizing. So why blame religion? It is lack of education and technology that is far more to blame.
quote: Could I suggest you take another look at those fundie websites I linked further up, and then consider that a large percentage of Americans apparently support this being taught in schools? And before you say that they are not representative, please note that they are numerous enough that school boards take notice of them.
While I admit that it is possible that you know more about this than I do, I am not likely to trust you as a source on this considering your strong bias against religion. I'm sure there are some that support it. But a large percentage? I dunno.
I say all this not bothering to have checked the links, BTW. While I don't consider myself a creationist, I don't have a problem with some schools choosing to teaching it. I'm sure there are many private schools that already do. It just doesn't bother me. And it seems far from "evil" to me. Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
KoM, while you personally may gain nothing from religion, blanket statements against it are really just ridiculous. Yes, some bad things have been done in the name of religion, but some really wonderful things have been done in the name of religion as well. (And that's leaving aside the benefits to a single person of faith and belief).
Tone down the rhetoric, and try to listen to what other people are saying, instead of riding your hobbyhorse so insistently.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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quote:I say all this not bothering to have checked the links, BTW. While I don't consider myself a creationist, I don't have a problem with some schools choosing to teaching it.
Then I think you should check the links. These are people who believe that the Universe is literally six thousand years old. They believe that the dinosaurs were killed off by the Flood. They believe that humans and T. Rex walked the Earth together. Quite apart from issues of religion, these are things which are demonstrably not true. They should not be taught in schools.
quote:Now that is the most preposterous thing I have heard in a long time.
Perhaps you could come up with a nice counterexample instead of this assertion-of-disbelief stuff?
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:KoM, while you personally may gain nothing from religion, blanket statements against it are really just ridiculous. Yes, some bad things have been done in the name of religion, but some really wonderful things have been done in the name of religion as well. (And that's leaving aside the benefits to a single person of faith and belief).
You know, I've heard Valium addicts say much the same thing. As for the good things, perhaps you could come up with some nice examples? And before you mention Mother Theresa, let me just note that her attitude to contraception was hardly helpful to the poor people she worked with,
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: You know, I've heard Valium addicts say much the same thing.
See, that's just absurdly insulting. Really. Back off on the "opiate of the masses" hobbyhorse. Lots of very intelligent people gain great personal benefit (and no detriment) from faith. You've decided you believe this one thing and everyone else is just clearly an idiot. This type of rhetoric is just obnoxious.
As for some "nice examples," how about the Jesuit propagation of education? How about the tons of charity work done in all manner of churches? How about the soup kitchens run by churches? Those work for you? If not, I'm sure that others can come up with other "nice examples" for you.
Oh, and let me say just one more time: you need to tone down the condescension. Just because I tend to agree more with your political positions than with others I could mention doesn't mean you can get away with acting like a jerk. Treat others with respect, or don't let the door hit you in the buns on the way out.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Religion lets you deal with the tough things in life. Valium lets you deal with the tough things in life. If you don't like the comparison - I suggest you get some religion. I'm sorry, but I think this is a valid analogy, and I won't let you shut it down just by shouting "INSULT! INSULT! CRUCIFY!" If you think my arguments are wrong, say so and give reasons. Don't shout about how your feelings got hurt.
Jesuits are noted for their education, yes, including the tendency to produce good little choirboy drones. Since they teach things that are false and evil, I do not consider that a good thing. As for soup kitchens : If the money spent on building churches were available for useful activities, we could feed a lot more people than any mere charity.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Religion lets you deal with the tough things in life. Valium lets you deal with the tough things in life
Sports help you get through the tough things in life. Sex helps you get through the tough things in life. Teddy bears help you get through the tough things in life. Making lists helps you get through the tough things in life. Singing helps you get through the tough things in life. Reading sci-fi helps you get through the tough things in life. Insulting people on an internet forum helps you get through the tough things in life. Cooking helps you get through the tough things in life. Walking through the park helps you get through the tough things in life. Swimming helps you get through the tough things in life. Watching movies helps you get through the tough things in life. Sleeping helps you get through the tough things in life. Drawing cartoons helps you get through the tough things in life.
do you see the absurdity yet? Anyone please feel free to add on to the list.
posted
Indeed you are right, SM. The difference is that none of those other things have bad side-effects, with the possible exception of the intarwebnets.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I think they all can. But seriously, I'm on a roll here:
Water can help you get through the tough things in life. Electronic gizmos can help you get through the tough things in life. Drinking hot chocolate on a snowy morning can help you get through the tough things in life. Watching Broadway Musicals can help you get through the tough things in life.
posted
Teddy bears are no doubt harmful if you buy up the entire world's supply and tens of thousands of five-year-olds have nothing to cuddle anymore, yes. The point I'm trying to make is that religion is harmful even in small quantities.
I am going to bed, and will post no further until tomorrow evening. Goodnight all.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: Religion is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
So am I to infer that every German that went along with the Hitler thing was evil at heart? What about Russians who bought into Communism?
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote: Perhaps you could come up with a nice counterexample instead of this assertion-of-disbelief stuff?
Do you have any idea how irrational and bigoted your statement is? Why should I need to explain my assertion of disbelief in the face of such absurdity?
Let me show you:
Being gay is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
Being black is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
Being blind is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
Being poor is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
Being Norweigan is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
Being male is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
----------- Get the picture? I think the burden of explaination weighs quite heavily on the one making the statement.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Well, I am a young earth creationist. I’ll agree that ICR and Answers in Genesis don’t speak for my beliefs, but they are an excellent source of great information on creation. They might say that they doubt life exists anywhere else in the universe. But this is a far step from saying that if it does that ruins creationism. Personally, I won’t be surprised if the universe is filled with populated planets. Now on to dinosaurs… Take this article on dinosaurs: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/2.asp I find the mention of behemoth very interesting in the bible and the similarity to dinosaurs.
But my point really is that if you found an acceptable dinosaur and man fossil together, what would that mean to you? I think any of these theories on dinosaurs should be taught in public school. It’s certainly not right to teach only the atheist religion of evolution as fact.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Oops! Looks like we DO have a young earth creationist on the board. Looks like King of Men has no more excuses to randomly insult people. Darn.
So. Religion is like drugs because religion makes bad things happen and, like, breaks families apart like drugs do and stuff. Wow.
Everything in life has its good points and bad points. Alcohol, when taken in moderation, can be good. Drugs, believe it or not, when taken in moderation can save lives. Like mine and probably yours.
Maybe you think that religion did something terrible for you or your family, maybe it did. But that doesn't change the fact that religion has be an important part of people's lives and an important part of who many people are.
I, personally, dislike romance novels. I think they're mostly badly written, and that they don't have any literary significance, and that they're really pretty much wasted paper. But that doesn't mean that I think that all people who read romance novels are idiots. Or that all romance novels should be banned.
And I really think that no matter what we say, you'll continue to have your bigoted, narrow, shallow opinions and to express them in a rude, callous and uninformed way. And that I'm wasting keystrokes conversing with you.
Posts: 4816 | Registered: Apr 2003
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quote: It’s certainly not right to teach only the atheist religion of evolution as fact.
Jay. Nor is it right to call a scientific theory an "atheist religion." Plenty of people who believe in God or gods believe in evolution.
Most public schools teach evolution is a scientific theory, not a fact, but a theory that is heavily supported by genetics and archeology.
Jay, that was a good link to space.com, thanks. The "Ararat Anamoly" is interesting. And I learned a new term: hyperspectral imagery
quote: In particular, hyperspectral imagery from space offers great promise.
All natural and human-made materials on the surface of the Earth have a unique signature of reflected light from the Sun. This signature is more detailed than can be captured by a conventional camera or the human eye. Hyperspectral sensors can measure this signature and actually identify materials from space.
Morbo
[ February 17, 2005, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: the Professor ]
Posts: 111 | Registered: Jun 2003
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You do know that that's an April fool's joke by a bunch of scientists, right? I mean, just the start :
quote:I have a incredible story to tell, which is being hushed up by scientists and goverments all over the world. Darwin's theory of the evolution of species has been disproved. But everyone is covering it up.
quote:The cave where the stones were allegedly discovered has never been identified, much less examined by scientists. Skeptics consider the stones to be a pathetic hoax, created for a gullible tourist trade. Nevertheless, three groups in particular have endeavored to support the authenticity of the stones: (a) those who believe that extraterrestrials are an intimate part of Earth's "real" history; (b) fundamentalist Creationists who drool at the thought of any possible error made by anthropologists, archaeologists, evolutionary biologists, etc.; and (c) the mytho-historians who claim that ancient myths are accurate historical records to be understood literally.
quote:
And by the way, how did this very fine artwork survive the Flood intact?
quote:Ideology is the only thing that can cause otherwise good men to do evil things.
There, fixed that for you.
Plenty of atrocities have been committed in the name of secular (and, in the case of Communism, aggresively atheistic) ideologies. The problem is not confined to religion.
Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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quote: Religion of various kinds is the main surviving ideology.
How do you figure? You're espousing an ideology right now.
quote: i·de·ol·o·gy Audio pronunciation of "ideology" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-l-j, d-) n. pl. i·de·ol·o·gies
1. The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture. 2. A set of doctrines or beliefs that form the basis of a political, economic, or other system.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure there are plenty more ideologies out there than just religion.
Posts: 4077 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Perhaps I should have added a smiley to that? Unfortunately, we don't have an *utterly deadpan* smiley.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Smiley or no, it is the attitude that you constantly portray. Again, it makes people not want to listen to you.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
If that was supposed to be sarcastic in anyway I think its telling how no one else thought it was.
Posts: 3446 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I assumed you were posting tongue-in-cheek, KoM and I was somewhat amused. The reason that some may not find the humor is due to your (if you'll forgive the delicious irony) holier than thou attitude in regards to religion. You must realize that there are different templates by which people view and live their lives. Attempting to belittle a template that doesn't work for you, but does work for many will not earn you any latitude in making jokes even if they are at your own expense.
Posts: 2022 | Registered: Mar 2004
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posted
Actually, I found that particular post of KoM's massively funny. Possibly because I say things like "everyone knows I am in sole possession of Absolute Truth™" all the time. Of course, I'm also pretty arrogant. Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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