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The popular perception, HT, is that agnostics are either atheists without a backbone or Christians with a nit to pick. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Okay, be honest, Jay. You nabbed this article from the Onion one day and tried to make it look serious to fool us all, right??
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Ok, atheist doesn’t believe there is a God. You can’t believe in creation if you are an atheist. Alien seed planting is hardly an argument for atheist believing in creation. Still sounds like evolution with a twist to me.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Evolution has become the rallying point, unfairly so in many instances, of the non-believer.
I don't believe in God, nor do I make a point to actively disbelieve in Him - but I make this choice based on the merits of arguments presented to me.
I don't, however, believe in Evolution as the de facto alternative to believing in God. Just like buying a handgun didn't earn me a membership in the NRA.
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"Alien seed planting is hardly an argument for atheist believing in creation. Still sounds like evolution with a twist to me."
So I was right, and your issue is definitional. You define "evolution" as "anything not created by God." So by definition, anyone who doesn't believe in God must be an evolutionist.
Unfortunately, your definition is wrong.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Good one Tom. All I have to say to that though, is the believer is happy; the doubter is wise.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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I find that it often bothers the less intelligent adherents of "intelligent design" when I point out that ID theory could just as easily mean that we're all descendants of Martians. So many Creationists have jumped onto that liferaft -- calling it a yacht -- that they're capsizing it.
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Farmgirl, I haven't made a huge study of it, but that is mostly because what I have seen has not impressed me or made me desire to read more.
I believe in God, and I believe that He is the creator of all we see. But I am fairly hands off about taking positions on how he accomplished that. I accept that there may be possiblities that we as humans simply aren't aware of. I accept it as a mystery. But the part of me that craves logic and sense finds evolutionary theory very compelling.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Altáriël, us agnostics are more concerned with the time we have. We're not sure what happens next. Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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Sorry - I'm having a hard time keeping up due to interruptions
This is to Tom's post to me on previous page about my link:
That link was only to show his credentials - I knew you're probably blast the site. But I wasn't talking about that site, I was talking about his work, and wanted one site that showed all his credentials as a legitimate scientist.
quote: Atheism's other Achilles heel are the acts on inhumanity and lunacy committed in its name. As McGrath relates in Christianity Today: "With time (atheism) turned out to have just as many frauds, psychopaths, and careerists as religion does. ... With Stalin and Madalyn Murray O'Hair, atheism seems to have ended up mimicking the vices of the Spanish Inquisition and the worst televangelists, respectively."
LOL! Then by this argument, considering all the horrible wars and murders committed in the name of God/religion, the author has thus nullified God/religion as a viable belief as well.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sure, I read those, and then I clicked on his little side links and read how he answered those questions. And that's when I started rolling my eyes.
Posts: 3243 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Basically, I have nothing against creationism, really. But from what I have seen, it doesn't make as much factual sense as evolution. The facts to back it up tend to be exceptions, and usually are exceptions for good reason. If creationism convinced me on a factual basis, I have no inner bias that would feel threatened by that in any way. I really am open minded about the whole thing.
My only bias is that I *do* believe in a Creator. I don't think evolution (if it indeed was how all this came to be) happened accidentally.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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What? Oh get real. Alien seed planting is still evolutionary. They don’t think the aliens stuck around. And if they did it’s still them using their own little evolutionary methods. Come on Tom, you can come up with better then “Alien seed planting” My statement is still 100% true. You still can’t find me an atheist who doesn’t believe in evolution.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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While the article is an attack on atheism, I don't see much attack in this thread--except from Jay, which is to be expected.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jay, I beg to differ. If I were a person who believed in alien seeding, I would probably imagine continuing guidance from such aliens to acheive a desired result. That is basically the roll I see God filling if evolution did, in fact, result in our ecosystem.
Edit: But yes, you are correct that evolution would still come into play.
quote: Zulehner cautions, however, that in the rest of Europe re-Christianization is by no means occurring. "What we are observing instead is a re-paganization," he went on, and this worries Christian theologians such as Munich's Pannenberg and the Rev. Gerald McDermott, an Episcopal priest and professor of religion and philosophy at Roanoke College in Salem, Va.
For although in every major European city except Paris spirituality is booming, according to Zulehner, this only proves the emergence of a diffuse belief system, Pannenberg said, but not the revitalization of traditional Christian religious faith.
Observing a similar phenomenon in the United States, McDermott stated that the "rise of all sorts of paganism is creating a false spirituality that proves to be a more dangerous rival to the Christian faith than atheism."
Cool... I've always wanted to worship the Valar.
Posts: 4953 | Registered: Jan 2004
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Twinky, I'd like to point out that the line in this discussion does not run between believer and non-believer.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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But, remember, science beyond our understanding is still, according to Jay, a "little evolutionary method." So anything scientific has to be evolution, by his definition.
Which is rather amazing, actually, because I'd wager that most of the Intelligent Design advocates out there would not share his opinion. In fact, most Intelligent Designers -- as opposed to outright and unabashed Creationists -- I know are far closer to beverly's position.
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"I've always wanted to worship the Valar."
Until Lucas screwed up the prequels, I wouldn't've minded being a Jedi. But I draw the line at wearing a stupid hair extension.
quote: If I were a person who believed in alien seeding, I would probably imagine continuing guidance from such aliens to acheive a desired result. That is basically the roll I see God filling if evolution did, in fact, result in our ecosystem
Then wouldn't this be a type of faith - or belief - in an alien God? I mean, like the Oversoul, to some extent.? If an alien-believer feels like there is "guidance" from said alien, then it becomes a belief structure.
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So to you anything that is not completely ex nihilo is evolution?
Well, heck, Jay, that's going to make this argument rather difficult, because you're not using words correctly. If we got into a debate about whether or not chocolate were tasty, and you defined chocolate as "anything that isn't a nut," I'd have to ask you to reconsider your selection of terms.
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"Then wouldn't this be a type of faith - or belief - in an alien God?"
Excellent question. I've asked it before. If an alien being came down to Earth, Farmgirl, and said his name was Yahweh, and said he'd created the human race and sent down messengers to give us a code of laws that become our Bible, and then produced proof thereof, would you bow down and worship him? What if Yahweh lived on a planet named Zorquon in another universe and made this universe by, say, seeding a black hole? And as a being of pure energy, was technically immortal? And knew secrets of time travel and the like?
At what point does Yahweh stop being an alien and become a god? Would you worship ANY alien who created the human race, or only an alien who exactly matched the criteria of the hypothetical Christian God?
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Careful Bev - you're going to have God wearing a pair of Spock ears next.
However, I find the notion of neo-Paganism rather attractive - if only because I've always had a secret desire to prance around in the woods under a full moon in nothing but Good Intentions.
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Tom I said nothing of the sort. Why don’t you try to read once in a while. I said find me an atheist who doesn’t believe in evolution. And you gave some stupid alien seed planting thing. Where on earth do you come up with this to the whole science of the world?
all I'm saying is that "alien seed planting" still uses evloution
[ March 03, 2005, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: Jay ]
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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"I said find me an atheist who doesn’t believe in evolution. And you gave some stupid alien seed planting thing."
Yes. Which would be a perfect example of an atheist who doesn't believe in evolution.
Your problem, Jay, is that you don't know what evolution is. If you would like me to define it for you, ask.
"Alien seed planting" would use evolution as a mechanism if the aliens did not meddle. Someone who believed that aliens meddled in the process in order to achieve a desired result would not be an evolutionist, insofar as "evolutionist" in this case indicates a belief in natural selection. All that's required to believe this is a belief in the mechanisms of genetic drift, which are pretty well documented; even the most blinkered of Creationists do not generally dispute them, given our ability to do things like breed for selected traits.
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He's certainly got some degrees, but afaik he's never published any scientific paper (not even saying peer reviewed) which refutes evolution in his field(s) of expertise. I searched around for a bit, but its all popular. If he's a scientist looking at this scientifically, why isn't he writing scientific papers on the subject?
Take particular note that the very most important criteria he wishes to use for "scientifically" separating kinds out is:
quote:Scripture claims (used in baraminology but not in discontinuity systematics). This has priority over all other considerations.
<sarcasm>Clearly his position doesn't arise from his religious beliefs and is instead based on scientific inquiry.</sarcasm>
Not to mention that the many pages of the paper could be written far more effectively in maybe two pages by someone not trying to sound fancy.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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With the loss of Communism as a source of all evil satanic influence to scare and rally the troops some Christian leaders seem to be trying to create an evil empire for them to fight--Aethiest as evolutionary loving, anti-Christs organized with the sole purpose of destroying Christianity by brainwashing the innocent open minded people of earth, and Homosexuals as perverted or deranged anti-Christs secretly organized into some gay cabal who's sole purpose is to convert others to their unnatural lifestyle by destroying families and Christianity.
This has caught the Aethiests, Agnostics, Scientists, and Homosexuals I know completely by surprise because none of them belong to such organization nor do they wish to implament such devious plots.
Still, it gathers the troops together for these leaders, who are usually more interested in their collection plates, political power, or private empires than they are about spreading true Christian doctrine.
It is easier to appear Christ-like by battling Satan--even Satan's you manufacture, than it is to live a life as Christ asked.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Great. We'll use Wikipedia, then. Let me point you to this phrase: "The word 'evolution' is often used as a shorthand for the modern theory of evolution of species based upon Charles Darwin's theory of natural selection..."
I rest my case. Someone who believes that aliens seeded life on this planet does not believe in the modern theory of evolution of species based upon Darwin's theory of natural selection. Do you dispute this, Jay, or should I explain those two theories to you?
quote: Then wouldn't this be a type of faith - or belief - in an alien God? I mean, like the Oversoul, to some extent.? If an alien-believer feels like there is "guidance" from said alien, then it becomes a belief structure.
Possibly, possibly....
quote:But, remember, science beyond our understanding is still, according to Jay, a "little evolutionary method." So anything scientific has to be evolution, by his definition.
Yup, I noticed.
quote:Careful Bev - you're going to have God wearing a pair of Spock ears next. [Taunt]
Well, but here is where *my* bias comes in. I believe that God did literally create us in His image, and that if he had "Spock ears" we would have them too.
Pity, we have a fair amount of genetic diversity amongs humans on the planet, but elf-ears has never really come to be a main player in the dance.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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READ Tom. Try it you might like it! Evolution generally refers to any process of change over time. Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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quote: Evolution generally refers to any process of change over time.
Oh my God! The socks on my feet have evolved since yesterday! Wait. And I caused this. Ooh! Am I a goddess now ilke the TV ads for razors tell me I am??
Posts: 624 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote: Excellent question. I've asked it before. If an alien being came down to Earth, Farmgirl, and said his name was Yahweh, and said he'd created the human race and sent down messengers to give us a code of laws that become our Bible, and then produced proof thereof, would you bow down and worship him? What if Yahweh lived on a planet named Zorquon in another universe and made this universe by, say, seeding a black hole? And as a being of pure energy, was technically immortal? And knew secrets of time travel and the like?
At what point does Yahweh stop being an alien and become a god? Would you worship ANY alien who created the human race, or only an alien who exactly matched the criteria of the hypothetical Christian God?
This is amusing, Tom -- only because my family has had this very debate at home (I don't think you can be a lover of good sci-fi and not actuallly have this pass through your mind at some point)
So -- My belief is based on what I currently know about Jesus/God/Yahweh, which doesn't at any point indicate that he is an alien life form from another planet.
If in the future, it turns out - after I die or the world is blowing itself up or something - that all along he was indeed an alien, and my idea of "God" was erroneous -- while that might shake me to find that out -- would that it make it any less true that he (the alien) was a creator and that I believed in him? Would I be any worse off for it? No. The only thing in that equation that was "wrong" would be my perception of "him" and that perception was based on exactly what he designed for me to believe.
But I would still be a believer, as opposed to a non-believer. So to me, this just goes around in circles because we won't know the answer to that until the time has come for us to meet our Creator..
I guess in a truly very very literal sense of the word "alien" meaning "not of this earth" you could say even my current interpretation of God is that he is alien.
But of course, it is always fun arguing hypotheticals. I want to make clear that I do not believe that our God/Creator is just another type of life from another planet. I'm just amusing Tom here because it is a fun discussion.
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"Evolution generally refers to any process of change over time."
In the same way that "abortion" within the framework of a debate over its legality generally refers to the killing of unborn children rather than just stopping something before it's finished, "evolution" in the context of a debate about the theory of evolution refers specifically to the theory of the evolution of species.
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quote:If in the future, it turns out - after I die or the world is blowing itself up or something - that all along he was indeed an alien, and my idea of "God" was erroneous -- while that might shake me to find that out -- would that it make it any less true that he (the alien) was a creator and that I believed in him? Would I be any worse off for it? No. The only thing in that equation that was "wrong" would be my perception of "him" and that perception was based on exactly what he designed for me to believe.
It sounds to me, Farmgirl, like the specific element you require of godhood is an afterlife. An alien with an afterlife may as well be god; an alien without an afterlife has gypped you.
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Yes, Jay, clearly people who believe traffic patterns change over time are evil evolutionists out to steal your soul by turning you from God. *rolls eyes*
That is, after all, change over time.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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