posted
I'm not putting that up as a disproof of God. I was saying that I understood and sympathized with the way sacrifice brought Annie closer to her faith. In fact, I've often wondered if one of the reasons that atheism/agnosticism has yet to produce a really solid "movement" of any kind is because, by its very nature, it does not demand sacrifice and conformity of its members, and therefore expects no emotional committment.
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I think I agree, and I think I do it to myself. I know that when I become more involved, I want to be more involved.
I like to think, though, that I understand the mechanism that makes this work, and it's not hormonal or sociolocial. Posts: 285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Right. And sometimes the Lord blesses you for no reason at all, and sometimes blessings come before you tried to be obedient and prayed for them.
I will not start with the dueling scriptures.
Why is everyone stuck on the weather?
quote: Did you read the whole thread? That's not what we're saying.
If you're going to turn this into a Bible bash, I'm out. I don't want to be responsible for taking someone's beliefs away
Hi. Nice to meet you, too.
I didn't want to start a Bible-bash by ANY means. Also, no, I hadn't read the entire thread because while I was posting several new posts were added.
I was curious as to how someone who believes that one must be worthy of rain would interpret that particular verse, as that's what first came to mind. (I've had these debates -- generally fun-spirited -- quite often over the past several years.)
So, I was reacting to it as a religion-general question. Although I know the hypothetical question was directed at hypothetical Mormons, I know a lot more people from other denominations who hold a much more stringent view about the causes of rain, etc. This includes both believing in prayer that will alleviate drought and that the behavior of the people in the region and their unrepentance have caused the drought.
I'm more used to that debate and assume it to be a religion-general one than a religion-specific one.
Opinion on this varies widely within my home congregation, as well (during a ten year or so drought on the edge of the desert where cattle and cotton are still big players in the local economy, you tend to talk a lot about the rain.) I had assumed that among Mormons, similarly to people I know among other denominations, opinions vary and Biblical backing of these opinions is the norm.
I didn't mean to question anyone's faith in particular, although I was interested in interpretation. I figured it was one of those things where interpretations of certain Bible verses and the opinion of the meaning of the Bible as a whole naturally comes into play.
I'm guessing these conversations have gotten ugly here before, and that's why the strong reaction to me. Please note: I am very new, I didn't realize. I won't quote the Bible in a theological debate again.
*shrugs*
*moves on*
My personal opinion on the weather issue: I don't much care. Don't think it hurts to pray for rain, don't know if it helps, won't presume to assign either lack or abundance of rain to any specific reason in general or in case-by-case instances.
Posts: 99 | Registered: Mar 2005
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Welcome, starlooker. I understand now where you were coming from. It's good to see you - thank you for your contribution here. Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:So how would God decide which weather need to grant among the differing needs? I think it's much more productive to pray for the ability to adjust to the current situation, weather related or otherwise.
I agree with this, and I think it actually conforms better to LDS doctrine than the idea that "good things only happen to good people and bad things only happen to bad people." Abinadi, anyone?
Posts: 1512 | Registered: A Long Time Ago!
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I have on several occasions prayed for rain. And on many more occasions I have prayed to thank God for rain that has fallen. I have encouraged my children to do the same. Whether or not my praying has anything to do with the actual rainfall isn't much my concern. But if it does effect it, and this land has sorely needed it, I have done what I can.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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Praying for rain is a very common Mormon practice in the West. The idea that there were places were Ward (i.e. congregation) leaders didn't advise the members to do this never crossed my mind.
However, for clarification, there is NOT a specific righteous/wicked point to it all. Never once did that come up in all my years of living in farming communities. Rather, it was precisely because it was farming and "desert" conditions by nature that the prayers were requested. NOTHING about "you should all repent," in connection with weather.
That said, there are Scriptural evidence that such righteous/wicked weather patterns have been used. One can think almost instantly of Noah's Flood. There is a story in the Book of Mormon where a Prophet deliberately asked for a famine to humble the people, and then prayed for rain when they were properly humbled by the experience. So, such ideas of wicked/righteous famine and rain do have presidence.
Posts: 2207 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Since we're instructed to pray about anything we're concerned about, weather seems as good a thing as any to pray about. I mean, I thank the Lord often when we have beautiful weather, or even when we have thunderstorms. I pray for those who are displaced or injured or harmed in any way by weather of any kind. Jesus calmed the raging sea, I don't see any reason not to pray about it. But I would never assume that people are unrighteous because they're having bad weather, or righteous just because they have good.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I mean, I thank the Lord often when we have beautiful weather, or even when we have thunderstorms. I pray for those who are displaced or injured or harmed in any way by weather of any kind. Jesus calmed the raging sea, I don't see any reason not to pray about it. But I would never assume that people are unrighteous because they're having bad weather, or righteous just because they have good.
That's me, too.
I'm glad - I really was confused for a while. But it makes more sense now.
Posts: 3214 | Registered: Apr 2002
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Has it already been pointed out that Mormons seldom pray about rain, it's generally moisture ? I find that kind of hilarious, personally.
Posts: 2010 | Registered: Apr 2003
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I guess it's because we're just as happy with heavy winter snowfalls or even extra heavy dew. Especially the desert dwellers amongst us.
I know that after living almost my entire life in one desert or another, I absolutely LOVE the rain here on Maui. We have all different kinds of rain here and grass and plants grow like crazy. It's pretty cool, actually.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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I have never prayed about moisture. I've prayed about rain, snow, dew, mist, fog, humidity, thunderstorms, all by name, but never moisture.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Humidity is heavy air. It's not visible as moisture of any kind, and it doesn't do the crops a lick of good. Just makes you sweat and makes the heat unbearable.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Percent humidity is a measure of the level of moisture in the air, relative to a maximum amount "holdable" by air at the current temperature.
High levels of humidity most certainly can affect crops.
In any case, I was saying that if you have prayed about humidity (and I have as well, often along the lines of "Dear God, please make it go AWAY!"), you have indeed prayed about moisture.
Posts: 32919 | Registered: Mar 2003
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I've always thought of the word moisture as meaning something like sweat. Moisture isn't what I'd pray for (Though that is what everyone here in Idaho seems to be praying for...I was begining to wonder why there was an epidemic of Body Odor). I'd add a few sylables and ask for precipitation.
Posts: 3003 | Registered: Oct 2004
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Tom, an attempt to directly answer your question (if you don't think it has been...): No one, or certainly not the majority, feels that weather is directly related to righteousness of the people. Mormons do, however, believe in Godly intervention in the physical world in answer to the prayers of the faithful, be it weather, healing of the sick, or finding your car keys (seriously, that comes up a lot, not sure why ). The idea that prayer could change the weather is well within the belief structure of the Church, but that is all, a drought, a flood, normal weather, don't necessarily have anything to do with the morals of the society on which they occur.
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Yep. It makes sense. There are some other issues I'd like to address, but I don't know how to do it obliquely enough that someone from Nauvoo reading this thread would be unable to identify the source. So I might wait a while and make a separate thread about it. *grin*
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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And there's no humidity in Utah or Idaho, so the folks there wouldn't be thinking of it when they say moisture.
Seriously. Growing up, I had heard of humidity (in Dennis the Menace comic books actually... Margaret saying "It isn't the heat, it's the humidity that's the problem") but I had no idea what it was until I stepped off the plane in Orlando, FL in Jan of 1980. THEN I knew.
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Whenever I go to Utah or Idaho, my lips are chapped within three days. I'm going to start wearing a moisterizer on a string around my neck.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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quote:Has it already been pointed out that Mormons seldom pray about rain, it's generally moisture ?
Yes! I hate this! For one thing, the word moisture is pretty gross on its own.
Last Sunday, though, when one of our bishopric counsellors (an old farmer guy who's not much for public speaking) was talking about the fast, he impressed me by using the word precipitation. This was very noble, I thought. The only problem was, he kept saying that we needed to be fasting and praying for participation.
Posts: 285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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"Meet the family. Joy, 41, is a Virgo. She is a career secretary and enjoys ice skating and John Grisham novels. She's pathologically afraid of balloons and hates the word moist. She thinks it's pornographic."
-Georgia Lass, Dead Like MePosts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:Whenever I go to Utah or Idaho, my lips are chapped within three days. I'm going to start wearing a moisterizer on a string around my neck
Three days??!?! Whatchutalkinabout? The last time I went to Idaho (I flew to CA and drove across Nevada) I had to stop in Winnemucca and buy some chapstick.
When I lived in Idaho, my skin was so dry and I was always itchy. I spent a small fortune on bath oils, lip balms and body lotions and never really felt better. My daughter had terrible excema, especially in the winter time and we spent a lot of money on prescription creams for her. Since we moved to Hawaii, we never use such products (just a daily sunblock) and we don't have the itches or the excema any more. YAY for humidity! I'll take the sweaty knees!
quote:I spent a small fortune on bath oils, lip balms and body lotions and never really felt better.
I have found that if I use things like that, my body stops producing it on my own. Once my body got used to me not using it, it eventually got back into a good equilibrium.
I occasionally use chap stick, but a single stick will last me years and years.
Posts: 751 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Actually, the secret to surviving in a dry climate; and I'm going to tell you this and you'll wish I hadn't; is cutting back on your showering. Realistically, once every two to four days is just fine.
Posts: 285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Yeah, the males in our house never used any lotions or chapsticks either. But I and my 5 daughters couldn't take the dry itchy skin. And we would go through at least one tube of chapstick (each!) a month.
It was especially bad in the winter time. And when I go back to visit (I'm going in June to see my daughter who's coming home from her mission in a few weeks ) I have to be VERY careful not to get dehydrated. I know when I lived there I did not have to drink as much as I do when I visit there. My body has adjusted to a wetter climate now.
Posts: 2069 | Registered: May 2001
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quote:How does humidity differ from moisture, pray tell?
It's sort of a weird Utah-Idaho Mormon dialectal thing to use "moisture" in prayers to refer to any form of precipitation. It's pretty common to hear "We are thankful for the moisture we have received" in prayers when it rains.
Posts: 9945 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Yeah, "moisture" somehow made it into someone's "church register" once, and now it's stuck in many people's.
On a related note, my friends and I once determined that one of most cacophonic phrases ever is: "moist worm ointment." Go ahead, say it outloud. Slowly, and with feeling. And don't just glottal-stop those "t"s either; you gotta feel 'em.
Posts: 1068 | Registered: Aug 2000
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I was saying that I understood and sympathized with the way sacrifice brought Annie closer to her faith. In fact, I've often wondered if one of the reasons that atheism/agnosticism has yet to produce a really solid "movement" of any kind is because, by its very nature, it does not demand sacrifice and conformity of its members, and therefore expects no emotional committment.
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). The idea that prayer could change the weather is well within the belief structure of the Church, but that is all, a drought, a flood, normal weather, don't necessarily have anything to do with the morals of the society on which they occur.![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
And I was saying, I didn't pray about moisture by that name. Only specific types. ![[Laugh]](graemlins/laugh.gif)
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