I’m looking for some guidance and opinions on the topic of faith from everyone. I’m a Christian, and I’ve been mulling over some questions. I plan to ask my minister but I’d like to put it forth here first, because it really has been troubling me and I would like to hear everyone’s opinion on it, believer and non-believer.
Well here goes.
I’m really worried about everyone I love who’s not a Christian (those of you who aren’t of my faith and might be taking offense just wait a minute). There are many people I love whose souls are in jeopardy. To be saved means you must admit you’re a sinner to God and receive Our Messiah’s gift of salvation. And many of my friends and immediate family haven’t done this. It worries me to no end.
To nonbelievers, please understand that this is fact to me and I’m presenting it as such for guidance from those of similar faith. I don’t mean to try and exclude people of different or non-believer’s advice. In fact I’m mainly seeking it. This already isn’t coming off well, I feel like I’m categorizing people into groups and making it look like Christians are better then everyone, when that’s far from the case in a lot of occasions we can be worse, we’ve just been forgiven. I have a question for all of you at the end. I find this kind of thing hard to explain without coming off like I’m apologizing for my faith, which I would never do. I’m just trying to include everyone since this is the most sensible and respectful forum I’ve ever had the pleasure of visiting. People talk here, not to score points, not to antagonize each other but to have conversations about things that are important to them, and I value your opinions as much as anyone else, I’m not, and would never, speak down to anyone.
I don’t think it would be right to bring this up as a reason to become Christian however. It’s just not right to tell someone of God’s love through what could be taken as a threat. I pretty much know for a fact that many of my friends wouldn’t take well to me trying to explain why faith is important. Or people of much older age just seeing me as the baby I was when they first knew me rather then the adult I am now.
To my Brothers and Sisters in Christ my question is this. Should every Christian be an evangelist? Because I find myself devoid of words that can properly explain how I feel. Should I try to “lead through example”? Make my faith more visible and show how much it means to me? Or would this exclude my friends making them feel like they’re not a part of this, even though they are. I understand that they’re the ones who have to make the choice, that’s what makes it so meaningful, but still I worry that they may not regard it as an option. I don’t want to force anyone, and I don’t know if trying to guide someone to it lessens it.
To everyone else, is this intrusive? What would be the best way for someone to tell you about their faith? Should they address it directly? Make it apparent how much it means to them? I know many people view anyone voicing about “converting” is immediately dismissed. What would be the best way of expressing myself about this to someone?
This is why I’m so hesitant about writing about this, because there are so many ways people can misconstrue what I say, and everything I’m trying to get across can be misinterpreted completely and I can come off looking like a total jerk. I’m sorry if this gives offense I just don’t know any other way to figure out what to talk about and how to deal with talking about it, unless I actually do it.
I was considering posting this in the Ask OSC board, but I not sure if Mr. Card has the time to read this, since it really isn’t a question about him. I’d love to hear his input if he does happen by the thread though. I’d like some input from everyone. Thanks for reading, it means a lot. Well here goes I’m actually hitting the post button.
(PS: sorry if there are any grammatical errors or spelling I typed it as it came to me.)
Posts: 20 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Kreve, ignore aspectre. He's just like this. Wait it out and I bet you'll get some very interesting, very useful insights from some of our more thoughtful posters.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Your view is that the only way to salvation is through Christ. This is not a view that everyone shares, not even all Christians share it. To answer your question, I shall endevour to explain my philosophy of Pelagaian pluralism.
Pelegius, also spelt Pelagius, was a 4th century Celtic theologian who oposed the teachings of Augustine, his contempary. Pelegius denied the idea of orginal sin, and embracing free-will, saying that:
quote: 1. That Adam would have died even if he had not sin; 2. That the sin of Adam injured himself alone, not the human race; 3. That newborn children are in the same condition as Adam was before the Fall; corollary; that infants, though unbaptized, have eternal life; 4. That the whole human race does not die because of Adam's death or sin, nor will it rise again because of Christ's resurrection; 5. That the Old Testament Law, as well as the New Testament Gospel, gives entrance to heaven; and 6. That even before the coming of Christ there were men who were entirely without sin.
I don't really belive in points five or six. But, the essence of Pelagianism is that all humans are born good, and are capable of doing good. These ideas, can be percivied, rightly I belive, to say that the Church is not nescary. The idea that relgious leaders are not required, that the individual is capable of making his or her own destiny and achiveing enlightenment, is also central to Buddhism.
So, if the individual, rather than the relgion, is what is important, then all relgions practiced by those that are moral and just are valid. Therfore, there is no need for you to evanglise, in fact please don't. Relgion is deeply personal, and each individual has different spiritual needs.
Posts: 1332 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It depends on what your goal is. If you really do believe that everybody who isn't "saved" is going to Hell, then presumably your goal is to encourage people to be "saved". Therefore, simply saying "This is what I believe" and laying it out is not going to cut it. You're going to have to tell people why they should believe what you believe.
This will necessarily involve upsetting people. You can't get around it. It won't upset everybody, but it will bother enough people that you are going to have to learn to live with that kind of reaction. (By the by, if I am understanding your beliefs correctly, I am probably one of the people that would get snippy under these circumstances.)
On the other hand, if all you really want to do is tell people what you believe for the purpose of promoting understanding, then there are definitely ways of doing this without causing outrage. At least, you can do it when you are talking to reasonable people. I know of a few online forums, though, where the mere indication that you hold some kind of religious belief will invariably provoke outrage. This is not the case with most people, though.
Posts: 1652 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
Just tell them what a great and loving God he is, then tell them how if they don't bow down and admit he's real, they'll get sent to hell.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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posted
Hmmm, I'm definitely more of the state your peice, if you feel you need to, but it's really between the other person and God. While as a Christian you are commanded to tell other people, via the great commission, you *can't* let yourself feel directly responsible for their souls, because you aren't. To say you are is to deny their own free will.
For example, my parents and the rest of my family are Evangelical Christians. I'm not. However I feel far more at peace with God now, than I ever did while I was practicing their faith. Are you to deny me my personal experience and tell me I'm going to Hell as a result? (My family has, done so. Trust me, it doesn't make one *want* to participate in their faith whatsoever.)
God is bigger than you are and he will sort everyone out correctly in the end (provided he exists) You have to have faith in His sovereignty as well as realizing that you can't deny someone else's free will.
posted
Your questions are valid, and through your protestations, you have conveyed that you are sincere in your quest.
Let me first state that I am an athiest, so that you may take my advice in that spirit.
Usually, the offence that I take in someone who wishes to convert me is that they often refer to absolutes. "This is the way it is and any other way is wrong," which, I believe is the thing that you wish to avoid. If you present your beliefs as what you believe in, not as an absolute, then you will find better acceptance to listen from those who do not share your beliefs, as you will be qualifying your statements from the start.
The idea that rejection of "God's Love" would cause me to burn in Hell, is not a valid reason for me. I do good merely to do good, because it is the right thing to do, here and now. For me, the responsibility is on my own shoulders, and I don't believe it should be anywhere else. This said, were I not an athiest, I would have no sin against me. However, the mere fact that I have rejected "God's Love" would condemn me to Hell in Christian faith. That does not seem logical in my view for the structure of an ethos.
You must be willing to listen to be heard. I think that is the key you may be looking for.
Posts: 410 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: That's interesting. And just when didja receive the right to pass God's Judgement?
I'm not passing judgement on anything. In the end it's up to God (to me at least) to judge and I would never presume to pass judgement on anything. In fact the whole post is basically me saying how I'm having serious fears about judgement in general, when I know people I love and people I care for will be the one's being judged. ARG, reading over what I just wrote makes me seem like even more of a jerk, I can't seem to properly express what I'm trying to convey. I'm just going with what I have and believe. I don't WANT to believe that it's this black and white. I just want to take care of the people I love and as many people as I can and make sure everything turns out alright. I guess I should phrase things differently, I'm probably coming off as a huge arrogent jerk like I was afraid of. Guess that's a lesson in of itself. Sorry if I offended you, or somehow came off judgemental it really wasn't my intention to do so.
Posts: 20 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Ignore Jebus...he's a resident curmudgeon...
Do you actually think that the God that created this universe thinks in only black and white? While he has some absolutes, surely he loves the colors and shades of grey in between as much as anything, because he created the possibility for them and there are tons of them in the Bible.
Did Rahab do the right thing sheltering the spies in Canaan even though she was out and out lieing to protect them?
posted
I like these words from the Sermon on the Mount "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven." Personally, I think the best way to tell others of your faith is to live a truly Christ-like life and to embrace goodness wherever it is found. I think that Christ is compassionate enough that he doesn't necessarilly put a time-table on one's opportunity to be saved. Whether people choose to do what is required to be saved is between themselves and Christ and cannot (nor should it) be judged by anyone else.
If people question you about your beliefs, certainly answer them, but I don't know that sharing your beliefs unsolicited would be beneficial. Posts: 5879 | Registered: Apr 2001
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posted
Just lead by example. Don't just be a Christain, live it with your every action.... At least that is what I'd be more likely to respond to, being a bit of a heathen.
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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That was an excellent post, Kreve. I think that if you do your part to share what you can, your obligation has been filled. You can still be worried for them, but it is up to them to make their own choice.
Specifically, if the subject comes up or seems appropriate, you can talk about what you love about your choice. You can invite them to participate, at a number of different levels ranging from "What do you think of it?" to an invititation to come to church. If you're sincere in both your faith and your respect for them, I don't think you'll offend many people. Some will always be offended, but if doing this is important to you, that's going to have to be part of the price.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
Kreve, I appriciate your love and concern for those close to you who are not of your faith. Please take what I am about to say in that light...
I think the answer to your question is, how would you want an atheist, who thinks you are wasting your one and only chance at life, to talk to you about it? If she loved you and worried about the time you were spending in church bowing to a god she KNOWS doesn't exist. How would you want her to approach you?
posted
1) Yes, I believe all Christians should be evangelists. The word evangel means “good news” and an evangelist is one who brings good news. Now you can disagree with me about this next part, but “you need to believe exactly as I do or you’re going to burn in hell” does not sound like good news to me. Maybe you need to think a little more about what exactly the message is that you’re trying to communicate. What is your good news?
2) The most important task of evangelism is, in my opinion, to be the kind of person that people who know you would like to be.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Step 1: Stop apologizing. Step 2: Ignore aspectre. Step 3: For OSC's view on this, go here. Step 4: Stop apologizing.
The questions you're having right now are very common for Christians. These issues all revolve around a central question:
What is necessary for salvation?
From Romans 3:
quote:Romans 3:21-24, 27-28 (NIV) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
[...]
Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
In the link above, Card writes (and I agree with him):
quote:After all, if you believe somebody's going to hell, isn't it at least polite to warn them?
It's equally important to keep one last thing in mind, which you mention in your post:
quote:they’re the ones who have to make the choice
So*: should all Christians be evangelists?
Consider for a moment the effect that would have on how we would then be seen by the rest of the world. Most people I encounter in life have already made firm decisions of faith, whether it be faith in God, Jesus, some other supreme beings, or faith in a complete lack of any of the above (which is also faith; the only people who lack faith are agnostics, because they do not believe what has not been proven). Ringing their doorbells, giving them pamphlets, and declaring that their immortal souls are in danger is, more often than not, counter-productive.
This is not because they cannot tolerate our beliefs, or because they cannot stand to have their own beliefs questioned, but simply because it is a complete and utter waste of their time -- just as it would be wasting our time for an atheist to try and convert you or me. They have already considered what evidence has come to them, and made their decision. Before that decision can be changed, they must decide to challenge it on their own. Only when someone is actively searching for a new perspective will he be open to considering anything you have to say.
So*, then: do you just sit down and shut up and keep it all to yourself?
Of course not. If these people are your friends, then they will care (or at least take interest) about the fact that this means something to you. Being Christian is simply another important (perhaps the most important) part of your life, so don't ever pretend it's not there. But neither should you push that belief on your friends. Be willing to talk about it, and don't shy away from discussion of it, and don't avoid mentioning things that happen at church, or neat points made during a sermon that you think might be of interest, or even the frictions that can develop inside a church environment. If it fits the conversation, it's fair game.
God uses each of us in different ways: some are called to preach, some to sing, some to mend roads and fix houses in the service of God. Leave the hard-core evangelising to those who feel that call, who are drawn towards the need for God and know what to do about it. If, some day, that is you, then I wish you luck. But there are plenty of other ways to serve God.
posted
at jebus (I've wanted to do that for a while)
-----
I'd just like to echo no. 6's point about absolutes. You are asking your friends and family to make a huge change in their worldviews (to use the cliché) simply on the strength of your assertions. Being told, "This is the way it is, and you have to change your life because of it," is a lot to swallow, whether it's true or not, whether you believe the premise or not. You might think about why exactly you believe as you do. Do you have more information than those who believe differently? Have you had experiences that they haven't? Be sure about why you believe, not just what you believe, and you might find some ways of helping those you care about find reasons of their own.
- An atheist's $0.02
Posts: 1810 | Registered: Jan 1999
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posted
Dana (dkw) is very wise. Her advice to think about what the good news actually is can be followed without diluting or changing the central message of Christianity.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Good answer, dkw. Living a life of example is the best way to convince someone of the righteousness of your beliefs.
Pelegius, your namesake is very interesting, I find I learn more from the heretics.
quote: To everyone else, is this intrusive? What would be the best way for someone to tell you about their faith? Should they address it directly? Make it apparent how much it means to them? I know many people view anyone voicing about “converting” is immediately dismissed. What would be the best way of expressing myself about this to someone?
Kreve, as an agnostic who has listened to many religious pitches opver the years, I would say it's not intrusive IF the person you are prosletyzing to is receptive to what you are saying. Listen to them, have a discusion instead of a monologue. If they aren't interested, they'll tell you. And then you can back off. An approach like that might be momentarily annoying to me, but I wouldn't be offended if the person preaching the Good News eased up when I expressed a lack of interest. Of course, sometimes I just love to argue, in the right mood.
You might offend some, but that's unavoidable. As long as you're polite you won't offend most. Speaking of the Good News:
quote: Puritans frequently came to Vagabond camps bearing the information that at the time of the creation of the universe--thousands of years ago!--certain of those present had been predestined by God to experience salvation. The rest of them were doomed to spend eternity burning in hellfire. This intelligence was called, by the Puritans, the Good News.
thoughts of Jack Shaftoe, "King of the Vagabonds," in Quicksilver by Neal Stephenson
Posts: 6316 | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I was raised Episcopalian and attended 13 years of Catholic Schooling. My problem with religion in general, and with those two in particular, is that they make very little allowance for those that don't share their beliefs.
My line of thinking has always been this: Let's say two identical people are born on the same day. One in China, one in New Hampshire. Their lives are markedly similar in almost every way - they make some mistakes, but they learn from them, and they always strive to be better people. They treat others as they themselves would like to be treated. The major difference between them is that one believes that Jesus Christ was the Son Of God, who died for our sins, and one believes in the teachings of Buddha.
One goes to heaven and one goes to hell?
Or so Catholicism would have me believe.
I'm not interested in blindly following along. I was raised to ask questions, to inform myself and then make my own decisions.
And about religion, I've decided that I don't believe in a god who works in the way described above. I believe in God who judges people on their own merits, and who doesn't care how much of a christian you appear to be, only how much of one you really are in your heart. Words can lie. Actions speak the truth.
I saw too much lip service in my years of going to church. I saw backstabbing, money-grubbing, politically motivated bigots, among others. I also know people with unlimited compassion and kindness who are fervent atheists/agnostics.
I'm too logical a person to go with something that makes so little sense to me.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
I think that the non-christians you talk to will all fall somewhere on the "my mind is made up" scale. There are those that are looking for something to believe in, and just haven't found it yet, and there are those who have searched their hearts and minds, done all the research they could, debated it over and over again, and have come to the conclusion that the beliefs they hold are the one's that they are sticking with. How willing to listen to you the person is will probably depend on where they fall on the spectrum.
If a person says to you "these are my beliefs, they aren't going to change, please respect them", you need to accept that. Whether you remain friends with them after that is up to you. Until that point, here are some tips.
1) Be respectful. You've shown here that you are very well meaning and careful not to give offense. This can work wonders on having meaningful religious talks.
2) Do not insult their beliefs. Be it evolutionary theory, reincarnation, or transubstantiation, calling a belief silly is going to earn you a quick exit from rational discourse.
Tips for talking to athiests/agnostics/heathens...
1) Do not focus on the negative consequences for not believing. For example, warning them about hell. Non-believers do not believe in hell, and in fact its one of the things some of us have problems accepting about religion. We don't want to believe in hell. Most non-believers, however, want to believe in heaven.
2) Now I'm having trouble articulating what I mean with this one. What I am trying to get across is that while you believe your religion is "fact", the person you are talking to does not. Perhaps put "We believe" or "I believe" before some of your claims. A lot of us doubters are logic driven, and making factual claims like that can turn us off to what you are saying.
I could put more, but I am at work, and should probably be working .
posted
Thanks for all the replies! I have a lot to think about and I'm still gathering my thoughts. I'll spend most of tonight making a massive post addressing each person's post. So many good points are being made and good advice being given from all viewpoints. I'll be typing in word for the next few hours gathering my thoughts into something coherent.
First off, as someone who was raised in a rigidly Catholic household, I have to say that the sense of "do it this way or go to hell" is probably what most repelled me away from my parents' faith and just Christianity in general. Therefore, I wouldn't suggest that for you. I would, however, suggest that you very calmy bring up the topic, perhaps by asking your friends to detail their own beliefs first, since a person who feels they have been or will be listened to is far more likely to listen themselves. If you think you will become overexcited or vehement, I would wait. Otherwise, I know that if a friend could calmy justify or even just explain their beliefs that I would be more than happy and interested to at least listen.
I am, however, probably in the same category as your friends in terms of salvation as you see it, though: my own beliefs are very simple - I believe in God and I am thankful for his presence. For me, that is truly enough and I have no wish to define my faith any further. Sometimes I see God as the Father of Jesus; other times I see God as simply an amazing power and vital force in life that maybe takes different forms depending on what is touching my heart at any moment. Morally, I feel that if I simply try to be the best version of myself I can and that I have some kind of faith, than that will be enough for God. I still attend church services, but it is now more out of habit and hoping to glean a little new food for thought than anything else.
So, some questions I would raise if you told me what you just wrote would be that I find it hard to believe that I would be sent to hell simply because I do not 100% accept Christ as the only way to heaven. Why would a supposedly merciful God punish me for that if I otherwise adhere to all Christian moral teachings? Why is Christ so essential to our salvation and resurrection from the dead in the first place? What happens if I believe in God but not necessarilly Christ and consistently lead an otherwise good life, but my neighbor is a Christian who only rarely observes the tenets of the faith? Those are just a few of the questions I would prepare yourself to hear and respond to calmly.
Don't get me wrong, there is something truly amazing and wonderful about deeply and truly held beliefs, and I have a great admiration for those who can take so much simply on faith. Those who are not willing to even consider or listen to another way of life, however, I am myself closed off to. That said, I applaud you for asking how to evangelize successfully and as tactfully as possible. I understand that acknowledging other religions can be difficult (after all, the whole idea behind faith is that you believe that something is just right) but be prepared to know and respect when someone is not going to change their mind. That said, I wish you only the best on this quest . Maybe if my parents had tried to be as tactful as you are then I wouldn't be such a heathen .
edit: I was only at tom's post when I started writing the above, so if any of it's repetitive you have my sincere apologies.
Posts: 1548 | Registered: Aug 2002
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posted
I'm reading a book right now that addresses this subject in a way that sheds a lot of personal light to me. It's called "Six Events, The Restoration Model for Solving Life's Problems". It's directed at Latter Day Saints, but I think what it says might be helpful in answering your question.
It says that people come to their faith and salvation in a given order, and it doesn't work to try to go about things in the wrong sequence.
The very first step is understanding that we are children of God, eternal beings, greatly beloved by Him, that we have a divine nature, unlimited potential, and that we each of us are of infinite worth. So the first thing you can do to bring others to God (regardless of what religion you are) is to remember constantly who they are, and who you are, and reflect it in the way you interact with them. If you love them unconditionally, no matter how they behave toward you, if you love them with the pure love of God, understanding that they are infinitely precious, listening with your whole being to their concerns and worries, to their wants and needs, if you can show them by loving service to them, by your expectations for them, that they are God's beloved children, then they will feel that. If you can deeply listen to them, trying to understand their point of view from their own perspective, if you can feel the things they feel, and if it's real and not a sham, then that's the foundation for everything else. Trying to teach people the gospel before they know who they are is, perhaps, putting things the wrong way round.
Good luck! Remember always that free agency is the very first principle of all. People's choices are sacred. Or, if you like, God put the right person in charge of each of our lives. Posts: 6246 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I had an interesting experience with a Baptist Church I attended for a time. I was not at all interested in convincing people to become Baptist, but I was interested in getting people to join this particular congregation because: 1) I liked the preacher 2) I was hoping the church would survive
So, I was willing to do a little door-to-door talking to people about it. What I found was:
- the likelihood of convincing someone to come to services was practically nil. - some people are looking for a church to attend and would openly listen and maybe stop by to see if they liked it. - the vast majority of people (at least in the area where I was) were already attending a church, or belonged to one even if they didn't attend. And so, not interested. - those who didn't belong to a church were, for the most part, not at all interested in religion or religious observance and wouldn't spare the time.
This was my experience whether I went alone or accompanied the pastor and just sat back and watched or participated only when asked.
Thus, it was amazing to me how people would come in from various drives we would have in the neighborhood and talk about all the souls they'd brought to Jesus that day. I mean, one guy came in claiming 16 people!!! And they would all come in to church next week. Of course they didn't. Or we'd go to follow-up and the contact information would be all wrong -- addresses of houses that weren't built yet, or a number that was two houses beyond where the block ended...that sort of thing.
As I studied the Bible more, and hung out with various people who I admired, I realized a couple of other things:
1) If someone is ready, they'll seek the Lord. That may not be true in places where no-one has ever heard of God, or Jesus, or whichever diety one is promoting. But here in the US, there aren't very many people who don't know about the availability of God's message in various forms.
2) The example is far more important than the prosyletizing. It's just a fact. If you want someone to know about your God, live an exemplary life and they'll want to know you. In knowing you, they'll come to know your God.
Live a crummy life and pound the pavement on Saturday to drum up recruits and all you get is people who learn to look the other way out of basic politeness.
As I've met and intercted with people who are REALLY INVOLVED in their churches, one of the things I've come to understand is how much need there is for internal evangelism. There are so many people INSIDE the churches for whom it hasn't really "clicked." They need the help. And they can bring in others if they are experiencing something good in their lives.
Churches do a lot of great things. But it's the people who do it. There are wonderful, active people who do things within the church because it's a multiplier. Their efforts coupled with others and more gets done.
Whether you think of it as saving souls or just helping fellow human beings in need...it's true that people being active within their church can accomplish a lot.
I'm not sure this really answers your question. But I think every person who has faith asks the same question. Know that I have this truth, what is expected of me? What am I supposed to do with it?
And I think far too many people think the first thing to do is share it. I think that's part of it. But really, the very first thing is to try to live it. Know it. Understand it yourself.
The better job you do of that, the better job you can do sharing it.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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quote:And I think far too many people think the first thing to do is share it. I think that's part of it. But really, the very first thing is to try to live it. Know it. Understand it yourself.
I agree with this 100%. If you don't know what you believe and why, how can you even begin to tell people about it and to answer their questions?
HINT: "Well, my Pastor said that..." is generally not a good way to begin answers.
Posts: 2689 | Registered: Apr 2000
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posted
I don't have much to add to that which has already been expressed, except to say that my friend, who has been exploring Christianity, decided very recently that she was a heathen after all. When she told her Christian friend, the friend was heartbroken. The Christian friend called her in the middle of the night, terrified that she was going to hell.
My friend told her 'this is why I left.' She just couldn't wrap her mind around the idea that one had to be Christian in order to go to heaven. She still loves Jesus, but just realised that she could not accept this doctrine, for the very reasons why she loved his teachings - the idea of love and forgiveness, even for the worst sinners.
I'd love to know how someone would approach this issue without causing offence and alienating people. This thread is fascinating.
Posts: 1528 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Let me turn the question around, often a useful exercise in moral inquiries. As an atheist, I believe you are wasting much of your energy, many opportunities, and large parts of a finite existence on having faith. Should I, then, attempt to deconvert you? In other words, should atheists be evangelists?
To turn Card's quote around, "If you believe someone is doing themselves large amounts of harm without knowing it, isn't it polite to warn them?"
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posted
I think that the idea that God would create a bunch of people knowing full well that they would end up in Hell, as Hell has been commonly described, is one of the most pernicious doctrines in the world, and one that is worthy of contempt. But that's just me.
Luckily, I don't think a lot of Christians actually believe that. I'm not crazy about a number of the alternatives, either, but they're not nearly as bad as the above.
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quote:To turn Card's quote around, "If you believe someone is doing themselves large amounts of harm without knowing it, isn't it polite to warn them?"
Well, not the way you do it. This person apparently cares about not being rude.
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posted
Tough love, perhaps? I've seen a lot of fundies shouting hellfire and brimstone at people, which is a bit rude. And in all honesty, I don't take it as a compliment when someone tells me "do as I say or go to hell", no matter how diffidently he puts it.
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_Scopatz: As I've met and intercted with people who are REALLY INVOLVED in their churches, one of the things I've come to understand is how much need there is for internal evangelism. There are so many people INSIDE the churches for whom it hasn't really "clicked." They need the help. And they can bring in others if they are experiencing something good in their lives.
Churches do a lot of great things. But it's the people who do it. There are wonderful, active people who do things within the church because it's a multiplier. Their efforts coupled with others and more gets done.
Whether you think of it as saving souls or just helping fellow human beings in need...it's true that people being active within their church can accomplish a lot.
The better job you do of that, the better job you can do sharing it.
Amen, Bob - very well expressed.
One of the things that has bothered me with religious institutions has been the bypassing of those within the community that needed that "evangalism" themselves - a helping hand, a listening ear, some non-judgemental friendship.
We really aren't very gentle with the bent and broken reeds within our midst . . .
The other thing our new seeker might consider is joining "interfaith" communities that work together to improve awareness and acceptance of different faiths and belief systems, and also usually work together doing a lot of good works in the community.
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posted
A further thought occurs to me : The question does not have to be phrased in terms of faith and atheism. Suppose you really believe that the government is beaming thought-control beams from the GPS satellites - isn't it your moral duty to make people aware of it, and pass out the tinfoil hats? If you strongly believe that global climate change is imminent and catastrophic, should you not make people aware of it and support every action, no matter how minor, to avert the disaster? If you are utterly convinced that Jews are behind every economic ill of the day, might you not be justified in rousing people's ill-will against them?
I hope most people would disagree with the latter, at least. And yet, have we not seen in recent years, a Western government make war on the rather nebulously defined group of 'terrorists'? And has not this become, in (so far) rare cases, a synonym for 'vaguely Arabic-looking'? And this development seems to have support in a reasonably large segment of the population.
The upshot of all this, it seems to me, is that conviction, belief, faith if you like, is not enough. To feel justified in proselytising, you should have actual evidence, repeatable, demonstrable to anyone. Now I know Dagonee will disagree with me on what constitutes evidence, but again I would like to refer to the tinfoil-hat theorist. He has evidence too : He felt a lot better after he started wearing his hat. And, nice guy that he is, he wants you to feel better too.
The difficulty is, of course, that no religious belief has such proof! So I think my answer is, no, you should not evangelise.
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posted
Ah, I see. You take a question about how to evangalize without trodding on people's rights and get to anti-semetic rabble rousing. Very well done, with a deft propagandist's hand, I might add. Small tiny changes from "polite warning" to actually passing out the hats, to supporting "every action" (presumably including banning abulances since you'd reduce emmissions and kill a few overpopulatin' humans) to actually rousing people's ill-will against Jews.
Here's my perspective: try to understand the mindset of the people you are talking to. Keep in mind that some of them are not Christian because they have been burned somehow by Christianity or its followers. You need to be sensitive. This is your chance to demonstrate that some Christians actually care about non-believers, rather than seeing them merely as potential converts.
Realize that people may view the world very differently than you do. For example, my church had a Sunday school class based on a book that tells you how to convert people. Most of the "logical arguments" for Christianity would only be accepted by those who already have a Christian worldview.
Most people are happy to hear what you believe, as long as you are not pressuring them to accept your beliefs. If your beliefs make sense, people will be willing to accept them without you being pushy about it. I think that people will be the most open to listening when you are having an honest exchange of ideas, so listen to the other person as well. And hey, you might learn something valuable from them.
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posted
I usually hate "converters", I have had many horrible experiences of people stopping me on the street asking " Can you help me for just one minute?". I stop but then have to listen to some person for half and hour going on about how I am going to hell because I am a whore, cheater, stealer.... etc etc, leaving me no opening to leave with out saying "F**k off and leave me alone!" . BUT the other day two mormon teenage boys came to my house and asked "Are you interested in learning about the mormon faith, because it is something that is very special to us and we would only like the opportunity to share that feeling with other people", when I said no, they said they respected that and went! I was left with a warm glow that there are some nice "converters" out there afterall. lol
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posted
I really was doing my best to be polite! Surely fanatic anti-Semitism is an example of a belief without proof? And isn't that what faith means? I even included climate change, which I personally think is happening and is a bad thing! The point I was trying to make is, you should not argue for beliefs unless you have proofs that are convincing and repeatable. Personal testimony, no matter how sincere, just doesn't cut it, because there's always someone else with an equally sincere testimony in the opposite direction.
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posted
The last time Mormon missionaries came to my family's house, my brother and sister offered to share their thoughts on Catholicism with them. I think the conversation lasted about 30 minutes with each pair sharing about equally.
No one was converted either way, of course.
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posted
KoM, inflaming anti-Semetic passions will have the result of depriving others of their ability to choose (namely, the Jewish people who end up being the victims of the resulting violence or discriminatory laws). Politely proselytizing wouldn't.
Even if one had evidence that 50% of the Jews were in on a conspiracy to control the world, one wouldn't be correct in inflaming anti-semetic passions to stop the plot.
Dagonee P.S., I hope it's clear I don't believe there is a Jewish conspiracy of any sort.
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posted
I kind of like the point of KoM's post, but there is a fine point of distinction. I'd say it's between "sharing your belief" and "acting on your belief"
If you go door to door and politely tell people about the mindrays and offer them a tinfoil hat, fine and good. If you break into their house and staple the tinfoil to their head, shame on you. That's illegal and hurtful.
If you say "Jews control global finances" to people you meet on the bus, that's protected as free speech and you have the right to share that opinion. If you beat up the Jew who sits next to you on the bus, shame on you. That's illegal and hurtful.
Some people can argue that the 2nd statement itself is hurtful on its own, but I still think someone has the right to say it. I may not agree with what you say but I'll defend your right to say it, and all that.
The thread in general reminds me of this: There are 2 methodist ministers in my family. I am not christian. I can have a pleasant, rewarding conversation about religion with my sister. I cannot with my uncle. It has to do with my uncle's evangelism and "be saved or go to hell" attitude.
posted
You shout your own brand of contempt, hellfire and brimstone too. You're just not as frothy about it.
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I really was doing my best to be polite! Surely fanatic anti-Semitism is an example of a belief without proof? And isn't that what faith means? I even included climate change, which I personally think is happening and is a bad thing! The point I was trying to make is, you should not argue for beliefs unless you have proofs that are convincing and repeatable. Personal testimony, no matter how sincere, just doesn't cut it, because there's always someone else with an equally sincere testimony in the opposite direction.
