posted
Spoilers here... but then again, if you haven't seen this movie yet, you're living under a rock.
- The final scene, where Obi-Wan has delivered a baby Luke Skywalker to his aunt and uncle, one of the suns of Tatooine is setting, while the other is rising... symbol of Anakin's star setting and Luke's/Leia's rising?
-The two climactic battle scenes:
While Anakin almost literally "descends into hell" on Mustafar, Yoda and Sidious fight in the very symbol of democracy, the Senate. Sidious begins throwing senatorial chairs at Yoda, literally "throwing the Senate in Yoda's face". Yoda responds by reversing the path of the chairs and throwing the Senate, i.e. democracy, right back into Sidious's face.
On Mustafar, once Obi-Wan has jumped from the river of fire onto the ground, he calls out to Anakin that the latter cannot defeat him because Obi-Wan has the "high ground"... not only literally, as we see when Obi-Wan chops off Anakin's legs, but also metaphorically... a moral high ground.
-Birth and rebirth: as Leia gives birth to twins in a warm hospital wing, Darth Vader is being assembled in a very different hospital wing; two births of sorts.
-When Sidious rescues Anakin from the lava, Sidious's gesture and stance is eerily similar to that of Obi-Wan Kenobi when Obi-Wan rescues Luke in Episode IV... right down to the robes the two men oare wearing and their postures. Sidious is also strangely fatherly to Anakin here as well as throughout the course of the movie, which brings me to this:
When Sidious, in his guise as Chancellor Palpatine, talks to Anakin at the opera/dancing tapeworm show, he mentions the story of Darth Plagueis (Darth Plagueis? General Grievous? Remarkably obvious monikers...). In it he says that Darth Plagueis knew how to cheat death, and how to create life through use of the Force. Sidious also says that Plagueis's apprentice murdered him in his sleep after learning everything Plagueis knew. That apprentice, I found out later, was Sidious himself (obviously). If that's the case, then it is quite possible that....wait for it... Darth Sidious gave birth to Anakin Skywalker. Think about it. Anakin's mother doesn't understand his birth as there is no father; an "immaculate conception" of sorts. The Jedi believe that Anakin was given birth by the Force, somehow, but don't know for sure. Sidious's giving birth to Anakin through conceiving him in the body of a poor slave on Tatooine would be perfect for him. He would be ensured of creating a child with great force potential, and also, that same child would live the perfect life for being corrupted by the dark side. Having been born a slave and subjected to cruelty and torment on the harsh desert planet of his birth, young Anakin made a perfect target for the dark side to corrupt - and Sidious knew that those were the factors he had to create.
posted
Interesting theory, that last one there. We can only wonder how Lucas resisted having a light-saber fight between Palpating and Anakin, culiminating in Palpatine cutting of Anakin's hand and saying, "Anakin, I am your father."
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Of course, in all likelihood, Sidious could concieve a child the natural way without the mother being aware of what happened.
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quote: Of course, in all likelihood, Sidious could concieve a child the natural way without the mother being aware of what happened.
GHB? I bet a guy could get some from Mr. the Hut.
After Anakin participates in the death of Samuel Jackson, he really had taken away his other options. If the movie showed him thinking, commenting on this realization, THEN thinking about how he needed the dark side to save Padmei (sp?) it would have been a more convincing turn to the dark side.
Loved the movie though. I thought visually it was great. I just kept scanning the full screen to take in as much as I can.
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quote: - The final scene, where Obi-Wan has delivered a baby Luke Skywalker to his aunt and uncle, one of the suns of Tatooine is setting, while the other is rising... symbol of Anakin's star setting and Luke's/Leia's rising?
How is it that you can see two stars on opposite horizons? From what I remember, both stars are setting, in a scene reminiscent of Episode IV where Luke is looking off into the distance wishing he could leave home.
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quote:Of course, in all likelihood, Sidious could concieve a child the natural way without the mother being aware of what happened.
But he was also trying to fool the Jedi into believing Anakin was the chosen one—or perhaps he was unwittingly fulfilling the prophecy while thinking he was twisting it to his own ends.
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"Darth Sidious gave birth to Anakin Skywalker."
This has been discussed elsewhere. But I think it kind of undermines the "prophesy" thing. It was supposed to be that the midichlorians caused Shmi (sp?) to conceive in order to bring balance to the force. Palpatine wouldn't have wanted that.
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posted
Well, Jon Boy, Anakin did indeed kill the Emperor in the end and restore balance to the Force. Glenn, They weren't on opposite horizons, but one sun was moving downward and the other was coming out.
And Palpatine creating the Skywalker lineage doesn't undermine the prophecy. The Force could very well have used Palpatine as a tool in order to destroy him. In the end, everything worked out. Who are we to say that it wasn't the Force's doing?
The death of Mace Windu pissed me off like nothing else in that whole movie. Mace Windu was always my favorite Jedi, and to die to such a low trick, especially after being the only person to ever have defeated a Sith master in combat, blew my mind. Yoda couldn't even defeat Sidious, Mace did. And yet, he was killed by treachery... argh.
quote:or perhaps he was unwittingly fulfilling the prophecy while thinking he was twisting it to his own ends.
Yep. Kind of like, oh, Voldemort, SkyNet, and every other villian who tries to stop destiny.
quote:Yoda couldn't even defeat Sidious, Mace did. And yet, he was killed by treachery... argh.
Am I the only one that thought Palpatine was totally faking and let Windu seem to get the upper hand?
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I felt Palp was holding back trying to coerce Anakin to get into the fight. As soon as Anakin hit Windu, Palp let him have it.
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But Windu + Yoda and the thing would have been over before it started.
Next time someone wants to go confront a Sith Lord who has pulled the wool over the Jedi's eyes for 10 years, they need to bring all the big guns at once.
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Palpatine didn't want to get his face scorched off.
It's quite possible that Palpatine knew he would use the battle with Mace Windu as the final blow to get Anakin on his side. However, I don't think he was losing on purpose. Mace is, literally, the greatest Jedi swordsman that ever lived, because he channels the anger and power of the dark side for his own good intentions through his aggressive and reckless fighting style.
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His lightning died, he was out of power. Suddenly he goes off like a nuclear bomb yelling "UNLIMITED POWER." Seriously, I'm pretty sure he was faking.
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""Darth Sidious gave birth to Anakin Skywalker."
This has been discussed elsewhere. But I think it kind of undermines the "prophesy" thing. It was supposed to be that the midichlorians caused Shmi (sp?) to conceive in order to bring balance to the force. Palpatine wouldn't have wanted that."
What if Anakin wasn't the chosen one? What if it was Luke?
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Yoda did admit that the Jedi could have misread the prophecy. It could be Luke. I much prefer to think it's Anakin... that Anakin finally goes back to the light in the end is... simply... heartwarming... *sniff*.
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"Am I the only one that thought Palpatine was totally faking and let Windu seem to get the upper hand? "
Must be. Antihero beat me to it, but I the effect of the battle on Sideous' face shows he was having a really rough time of it.
"They weren't on opposite horizons, but one sun was moving downward and the other was coming out."
If that's true then someone really messed up in the accuracy department. Not that Star Wars is really scientifically accurate, but two suns can't move in different directions. The only way for a sun to rise is to be on the horizon the planet is turning towards, and the only way for a sun to set is for it to be on the opposite horizon. They'd have to be 180 degrees apart.
Similarly, the full moon must rise as the sun sets.
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posted
Then again, a Republic which allows slavery and subjugation of natives ain't exactly balanced. Neither are the Jedi propping up that government.
Problem with prophecies is that they are subject to interpretations. Balance to the Force = the 2 Jedi + the 2 Sith Which is what was left at the end of RotS.
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posted
Of course Anakin could have brought balance to the force by being Luke's father. In effect, it took both Anakin and Luke to do the whole job.
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...wait a minute. That would imply that George Lucas is actually smart. That his story involved that level of sophistication is impossible. I've read of and about the man - he can't be that smart.
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quote:The tip off to the prophesy was the virgin birth thing. Luke had a mother.
Did they ever say this was part of the prophecy? We never got to hear the full text. I thought it was just super-high midichlorian count.
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quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Then again, a Republic which allows slavery and subjugation of natives ain't exactly balanced.
Except that the Republic had no control of the Outer Rim, which is where Tatooine is located. Remember Padme's reaction to the fact that Anakin's a slave?
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posted
I like your theory Antihero. I had similar thoughts of him somehow being his father. I had been waiting for somehow Sidious to use that he was Anikin’s father to be the final straw in turning him to the dark side, but he didn’t need it. I like your theory of him making the force conceive in her. That would allow for the greatest possible meticlorines (sp). Very cool. That would make Luke the heir to the Emperors throne. Fun!
Oh, and he did bring balance to the force both times. There was two Sith left and two Jedi left at the end of III so balance in the force. And the end of Jedi there was only Luke left with Anikin destroying the Sith for good.
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"Padme thought it was alright to subjugate JarJar's people until she needed their help. "
I didn't get this impression. They lived in two entirely separate worlds.
I did get the impression that the humans felt superior to the gungans, but they didn't seem to exploit that.
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I don't know how balanced that is. The two Sith are in control of the Galaxy, the two Jedi are in hiding.
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I kinda took the "balance to the force" thing as meaning Anakin killed everyone on both sides, and had two children that were raised to adulthood ignorant of both sides.
So, essentially, he brought down the Jedi Order *and* the Sith, while providing the Universe with a pair of Force-adepts (one male and one female) who start the cycle of Force-adept life over once again.
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: Am I the only one that thought Palpatine was totally faking and let Windu seem to get the upper hand?
Mace was totally owning Palpatine before Anakin even showed up. Palpatine was only able to use his "unlimited power" to lay waste to Windu when his lightsaber (and arm) were no longer repelling that power into his face. If Anakin didn't show up, Windu would have continued to repel the force lightning until he eventually got close enough for the slice and dice. Either way, Windu unquestionably won the battle of the lightsabers with Sidious.
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the prophecy says that the chosen one will bring PEACE and balance to the force. I guess Anakin only fulfilled one-half of it unless you consider the murder of younglings and the entire jedi religion as peace. What I don't get is how Obi-Wan transforms from a 30 something in episode 3 to a 60 year old hermit in episode 4.
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And furthermore, I think Palpatine was definitely faking it. No person who's being truly electrocuted and being in pain, could instantly recover with a maniacal laughter and have enough strength to gather enough force to shoot a man out a building. I think his acting was necessary for anakin to turn to the darkside
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No, if you read the novelization of ROTS it becomes even more clear that Palpatine wasn't faking it. Windu took advantage of his tiny mistakes to beat him in the lightsaber duel, and when Palpatine used the lightning on him, he was probably the only Jedi alive who could turn that lightning back on its user, because, as has been mentioned, Mace Windu actually uses the Dark Side when he fights without going over to it. However, as soon as Anakin enters the room Palpatine knows he has won, because he knows Anakin trusts him more than the Jedi. He may have faked expending his last little bit of energy, but he was well and truly beaten, and if Anakin hadn't ahown up, he would have died right there.
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did Windu die? At first viewing, I dismissed that "soap opera" tactic, but I must admit, I'm kinda curious. We know Yoda and Obi-wan went into hiding, but what about Mace?
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I took Obi-Wan to be around 20 in Episode I 30 in Episode II and 40 in Episode III Anakin 8 in Episode I 18 in Episode II and 28 in Episode III. At least close to those areas.
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I figure living out in the desert for 20 odd years while hiding from an entire Galactic Empire and watching out for some kid who has the entire fate of the galaxy on his soldiers would wear someone a little thin. All that stress could very well have prematurely aged Obi-Wan.
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I had trouble seeing Samuel Jackson as a noble kind of a Jedi. If Lucas gave him lines like, "Hey, believe me, you don't want to make me use the force!" that would have sounded more like him. Posts: 159 | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Windu wasn't the only one who could repel Sith lightning. Yoda did it against Dooku and Sidious, and he did it with his bare hands, without a lightsabre. Or do you mean Windu was the only one who could repel it back onto the user as a weapon, since Yoda only repelled it into the wall?
How come Luke didn't get his face deformed after being shocked by the Emperor for what seemed like 5 minutes straight?
And this has bugged me the most. How the heck could Yoda, Windu, and all the other Jedi sit 5 feet from Palpatine for 10 years and never get even an inkling of a feeling like "Gee, it kind of feels dark and evil in here." I mean, Yoda could feel all the Jedi getting killed lightyears away, but he could not sense at least some kind of evil when staring straight at Palpatine's face all the time. Plus, wasn't Luke able to sense Vader's presence in RotJ?
Or does the dark side include some power to completely block out anyone else sensing the dark side at all?
Yoda said the dark side wasn't stronger when Luke asked him, but does anyone else get the feeling that the Jedi almost always get their butts kicked by the Sith? In fact, a Sith's main sales pitch is that they can "achieve a power greater than any Jedi." Or are Sith just really good car salesman Posts: 684 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: And this has bugged me the most. How the heck could Yoda, Windu, and all the other Jedi sit 5 feet from Palpatine for 10 years and never get even an inkling of a feeling like "Gee, it kind of feels dark and evil in here." I mean, Yoda could feel all the Jedi getting killed lightyears away, but he could not sense at least some kind of evil when staring straight at Palpatine's face all the time. Plus, wasn't Luke able to sense Vader's presence in RotJ?
Yoda is the Pope of the Jedi... he is special.
One thing is that not even Yoda was alive during the time when the Sith were many and rampaging across the Galaxy. They had no first hand experiance with it. Second is that Palpatine was the greatest Dark Jedi Master of all time. He was basically Sauron. Palpatine and the Dark Side had blinded the Jedi Masters and their prescience...something they had grown very dependent on. Without the ability to see the future they were really up a creek, lost in their dogmatic rituals.
And I doubt that Palpatine would have come to the capital planet, seat of the Jedi Order, without learning how to cloak himself. Yoda and Windu actually talked about maybe telling the Senate in Episode II that they had lost the power to read the future. They foolishly decided against it.
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posted
I cannot believe the "balance to the force" refers to numbers. That's too stupid.
Personally, I believe that the Force is what it is- an amoral energy field that is created by life and (per the prequels) is made accessible by midichlorians. It also has some sort of destiny componant/will to it, and this can be communicated (again, mediated by midichlorians) to force users as well.
Now, there are two channels to the Force.
1) When you are at peace, when you are calm, etc 2) Through rage and anger, etc
The second method is, as Yoda said, 'easier, quicker, more seductive' to accomplish and the power you receive (and vent) seems adictive. Sort of feedback loop.
And there are a couple ways to use the force.
1) USE it, as a tool, to do whatever YOU want. 2) LISTEN to it, be guided by it and be in harmony with it (and presumably, all life)
The Sith obviously USE the force, but Palpatine was also adept at listening to it's inclinations and/or indications of what is/will hapen and using that. And obviously, they tap into the force through negativity.
The Jedi, however, from what I saw, have primarily become users of the force. They used it to maintain the status quo, all the while placing their hopes (and the responsibility) for balancing the force on the Chosen one. Thus, to a certain extent, by abdicating any role they might play, the inbalance increases.
The balance, I believe, refers to how one uses/is guided with the force. Listening and being guided by the force is as important (and on a galactic scale more important) than using the force to block blaster fire or enhance your jumps. It allows for passion and fire, an acknowledging of that part of life. For example, by not teaching Anakin how to deal with loss (their advice was basically a preemptive cutting off- leave-before-they-have-a-chance-to-leave-you kind of thing, and their entire lifestyle is this way as well) they created more and more tools for someone who based his force use on passion to use.
Anakin (and later, Luke, through his new Academy) basically performed a 'system reset' that enabled force users to use the entire force- the living force and unifying force- and be a balanced part of life.
And initially, we heard nothing in the prophecy about destroying the Sith. That line only showed up in EPIII. I think that they began to assume that was included.
And I can't stand Mace Windu. What an arrogant ass. "You know Dooku was once a Jedi. He couldn't assasinate anyone." "I don't the Sith could have returned without us knowing." "I don't trust Anakin." "If you're right [about Palpatine], you'll have earned my trust."
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posted
Luke talking to dead people -- especially at the end of Return of the Jedi -- is a definite sign of his mental unBalance. Add Yoda's "There is another." to Luke going off to battle untrained/unBalanced, and the Balancing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX are the result.
Excepting Lucas' original novel, the books have nothing to do with the StarWars trilogy -- ie Episodes IthruIII, Episodes IVthruVI, Episodes VIIthruIX -- beyond being allowed to use the StarWars title and character names for merchandizing.
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I'm not even done with it, but that AICN review is absolutely, 100% spot on about everything- about the emperor, about the Jedi, about Anakin, about the republic, about what went wrong- everything.
quote:Originally posted by aspectre: Luke talking to dead people -- especially at the end of Return of the Jedi -- is a definite sign of his mental unBalance. Add Yoda's "There is another." to Luke going off to battle untrained/unBalanced, and the Balancing Episodes VII, VIII, and IX are the result.
Excepting Lucas' original novel, the books have nothing to do with the StarWars trilogy -- ie Episodes IthruIII, Episodes IVthruVI, Episodes VIIthruIX -- beyond being allowed to use the StarWars title and character names for merchandizing.
What gave you the idea that the sequel trilogy was supposed to have been about bringing balance to the Force? I've never heard anything like that.
And I also think that Luke's talking to dead people is probably because of the Force, not Luke's schizophrenia.
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aspectre, do you have something against using spaces to separate words? It makes your posts rather difficult to read.
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What would be the purpose of Episodes VIIthruIX other than Balance? What would be the purpose of "There is another." when any desire by Lucas to be able to replace (the actor playing) Luke (in case of a contract dispute, etc) is outside of the StarWars Universe?
Why does UncleBen spit at the memory of Anakin (when there is no public connection between Anakin and DarthVader)? Why does UncleBen despise the Jedi (as represented by ObiWan)? Why is that attitude shared by the general public?
Perhaps because any individual who takes on the role of judge, jury, and executioner -- ie the Jedi -- is intrinsicly despicable? Especially when they prop up a government-by-assassination?
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