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» Hatrack River Forum » Active Forums » Books, Films, Food and Culture » Teen Gets Life Sentence For Helping Girlfriend End Pregnancy (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Teen Gets Life Sentence For Helping Girlfriend End Pregnancy
Jay
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Wow...... Teen Gets Life Sentence For Helping Girlfriend End Pregnancy
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Kwea
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That is disgusting. The act, not the sentence.
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mr_porteiro_head
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I agree that it's disgusting, but it sure seems inconsistent. Legally is abortion OK or not?
[Dont Know]

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Anna
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I would say both are. (EDIT : to Kwea)
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Kwea
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Not by kicking and punching it isn't. And not with a minor.
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reader
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I'm definitely against abortion, and I do think that what he did was horrible, but a life sentence?!? That seems way too extreme.
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Scott R
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>>This isn't abortion. Abortion involves a doctor and medicine. What happened here isn't any better than the coathanger method that was used before abortion was legalized.

As long as you have a professional, then?

This is a very twisted ruling.

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reader
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I'm not saying it's better than the coathanger method - what I'm saying is that getting a life sentence for doing something that is NOT considered murder according to law (because otherwise, it wouldn't be legal) makes absolutely no sense. In otherwise, it's not the destruction itself here that's being penalized, because the methods that professionals use for abortion aren't necessarily any easier on the fetus. So penalize him to the extent that he would be penalized for kicking a minor and causing her an injury, with some extra punishment added in for the fact the fetus died, but a life sentence?
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Not by kicking and punching it isn't. And not with a minor.
This is not completely true. Minors are allowed to have pregnancie -- it happens all the time.

quote:
This isn't abortion. Abortion involves a doctor and medicine. What happened here isn't any better than the coathanger method that was used before abortion was legalized.
Then wouldn't it be more appropriate to charge him with practicing medicine without a license?

This was an abortion. They purposely aborted the pregnancy.

edit: I see you already answered my question.

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Dan_raven
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Kicking and punching is assault. In some states killing an unborn child without being a doctor is murder. It would be like slitting the throat of someone and saying you were just trying to give them a face lift.
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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Kicking and punching is assault.
Not necessarily. I get kicked and punched all the time at the dojo and it's not assault.

I don't see how you can assault somebody with their consent.

quote:
It would be like slitting the throat of someone and saying you were just trying to give them a face lift.
No it wouldn't, since the intent of slittling a throat is not the same as the intent of a face lift.

The kicking and punching had the exact same intent as a medical abortion -- the abortion of the pregnancy.

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Theca
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Ah, good old Lufkin, Texas. I grew up in the town right next to Lufkin. I should ask my parents what they've heard about this case.
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MrSquicky
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But abortion isn't legally not considered murder. At least not as I understand. The current status as far as I understand it (which may not be far at all) is that abortion can't be legislated against because doing so would violate the privacy rights associated with pregnancy. Again, I could be totally off-base on that, but that's my understanding of it. The action of another person not acting in say a priviledged medical relationship is not covered by these rights and can thus be legislated against. At least in my legal fantasy world it can.
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Ginol_Enam
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quote:
Erica Basoria acknowledged asking Flores to help end her pregnancy. But the 17-year-old can't be prosecuted because of her legal right to abortion.
So its legal to carry out an illegal abortion so long as its in your own body? The girl requested the guy help her abort it, and she moved it along, too (I assume the punching did something...?). I should think she's just as guilty as he is...
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Katarain
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I'm wondering who told on him. Were there witnesses? She could have easily taken the blame for it, since she's immune.

-Katarain

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Jay
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Not sure I understand why she didn’t get charged with murder like he was
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katharina
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Because the laws make it legal to have an abortion, but illegal to end the life of someone else's unborn baby. Legally, she's innocent. The laws are idiotic.
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Jay
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She wasn’t having an abortion.
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ketchupqueen
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Texas is a state that makes a distinction between legal abortion and murder of the unborn (AFAIK). The law is worded in such a way that it makes it illegal to kill an unborn child unless you are the mother or a medical doctor acting with the mother's consent (pretty standard wording). The point is to be able to prosecute cases of people killing pregnant women as a double murder, etc. I think the law is being misapplied here. But under the wording of the law, I think he is technically guilty.
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Mike
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I think KQ is right.

In any case, I think mandatory minimum sentences are a really really bad idea.

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Kwea
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This is actually one of the points I brought up when these types of laws began getting passed.

Everyone told me I was crazy. I didn't thin of this exact situation, but I brought up alll these issues arguing AGAINST that type of law.


What do you bet that they try to use this case a fodder to ban abortions again. ;(

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mr_porteiro_head
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Well, I'll bet that was part of the intention of the law in the fist place. SCOTUS has made abortion legal, but people in places like Texas are trying to do everything to get around it as much as they can.
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Lyrhawn
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Wait, how can he be charged with murder if legally they are calling it an abortion? If legally it's an abortion, he should be charged with what, practicing medicine without a license?

If they are calling it murder, then she needs to be in jail as well. The whole thing is stupid, and the law is ridiculous, and the two of them are incredibly stupid to do that. There's a whole lot of stupid going on here.

Plus part of me is just angry in general that the man is in jail for life while the woman gets off free.

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Jay
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I think what they’re doing is separate for each one.
Wonder if they could get her with the practicing medicine without a license thing.

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mr_porteiro_head
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From what KQ said, in TX it's only (legally) an abortion if you do it yourself or if you are a doctor going it. Anybody else, and it's something else (legally).
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Lyrhawn
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Well then she didn't technically have an abortion, and she should be charged as well. Certainly she's an accessory to murder, or harming a fetus, whatever the charge is. She should be charged as well.

But I don't think either one of them deserve so harsh a punishment.

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mr_porteiro_head
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No -- if you do it yourself, then it's an abortion. Legally.
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katharina
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I am against abortion, and I don't either.
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Jay
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So if the baby would have been born already and they killed it what do you think their punishment should be for each of them?
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katharina
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Jay, I like your non-political self [Smile] , but I won't discuss political issues with you.
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Lyrhawn
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Well then if it is an abortion how can they charge him with murder, unless legally they are calling abortion murder...

This sounds like a good case to take to the Supreme Court to challenge the legality of the law passed in Texas.

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Dragon
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quote:
Because prosecutors declined to seek the death penalty in the case
Who were the prosecutors? Seems like everyone involved wanted it to happen (except the unborn children of course).
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Jay
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But you’re against abortion so we agree.
Guess I just was wondering if anyone would think a life sentence for killing a new born would be too harsh and hear their reasoning.
I really do like to hear reason for why people think the way they do. Helps make things make more sense.

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Lord Solar Macharius
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From link:

"The defense contended that Basoria punched herself while Flores was stepping on her, making it impossible to tell who killed the twins."

If there is reasonable doubt, isn't life a little harsh?


On Jay's issue, does anyone know what stage the fetus was at? If it's early enough, I'm fine with abortion (as all I see is potential). If they (it was going to be twins) had motor activity, then it's murder in my book.

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Dagonee
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Could someone please explain to me the constitutional provision they think makes this conviction unconstitutional?
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Lyrhawn
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Cruel and unusual punishment. Life for an abortion?

And shouldn't there be something to the fact that the article says they don't know for sure who did it? They can't say "Well we aren't sure, so let's put him away just to make sure."

At the very least it sounds like he should have an appeal.

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mr_porteiro_head
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quote:
Cruel and unusual punishment.
This doesn't refer to how applicable the punishment is to the crime. If it's cruel and unusual, then it's always cruel and unusual.

quote:
They can't say "Well we aren't sure, so let's put him away just to make sure."
He was convicted, so legally there isn't any doubt anymore.
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Dagonee
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He might have an appeal on issues of proof, especially on the jury instructions related to how sure they had to be that his blows killed the child. But that wouldn't be a constitutional issue, and it wouldn't implicate the constitutionality of the law.

As for cruel and unusual punishment, they've upheld 50 years to life for a shoplifter. This one doesn't have a chance.

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johnsonweed
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Wow, I'm at a loss.
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Belle
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From what I understood when these laws were being debated, what happened here is exactly what was intended to happen under these laws.

The law can't take away what has been granted by the Supreme Court - the right for a woman to voluntarily end her pregnancy through a legal abortion, so the mother apparently cannot be charged. But assaulting a pregnant woman in a manner that causes her to lose miscarry her fetus (in this case twins) is a crime punishable under the fetal protection laws.

Doesn't matter if SHE consented - the fetuses are the victims here, they didn't consent to being stepped on and killed. In my opinion, they should both be charged with two counts of murder, but since under the law the pregnant woman is protected, they can't charge her.

If he was so "helpful" why didn't he take her to a clinic where the pregnancy could be ended in a legal manner?

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Dragon
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Wait, so a fetus is protected from being stepped on and killed but they can't protest being killed by a doctor? That doesn't make any sense!
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mr_porteiro_head
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It doesn't make sense, but it does make sense why the laws are like they are. The lawmakers in TX want abortion illegal, but they aren't able to. But they can make things that are close to abortion illegal.
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Belle
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I didn't say it made sense. But I do believe that what happened to this teen is what was intended to happen under the fetal protection law.

None of it makes sense. If it's a crime for this boyfriend to help a girl end her pregnancy why is it legal for a doctor to do so? If a fetus is a life that deserves protection (and a life sentence for "harming" them sure makes it sound like the law values them as it does a person) the why is it legal to terminate pregnancies in abortion clinics?

It absolutely doesn't make sense.

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Dagonee
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It does make sense within it's own framework:

Roe v. Wade and Casey said that the State has an interest in the continued life and protection of an unborn child. However, Casey said that this interest does not become compelling until the moment of viability. Until that point, the mother's right to control her own body supercedes. Part of that right is the right to obtain medical help in terminating the pregnancy. After viability, the state has an interest and can bar abortions as long as exceptions are made for particular cases where the mother's interest again becomes preeminent.

Many people misinterpret that analysis and think it means that the state has no interest in protecting fetuses prior to viability. This is not so. Both Roe and Casey affirm the state's interest prior to that point; they simply place another interest above it.

That interest guarantees the right to obtain an abortion from a medical provider without an undue burden being placed on the exercise of that right.

That's it. The boyfriend has no interest that supercede's the state's interest. And the mother has no right to the assistance of a non-medical person in terminating the pregnancy.

Therefore, no right has been violated by sending this guy to prison for life.

By the way, the article doesn't say there is doubt about who killed the child. It says the defense contended that there was doubt.

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Storm Saxon
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I can't help but think that in a very sad way, this is a victory for pro-choice people in Texas.
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Belle
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*bows to Dag's superior knowledge and ability to express it in terms I can understand*
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Dagonee
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My problem with the law is with the mandatory sentence, not the criminalization of this particular act.
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Lyrhawn
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Maybe it all makes sense legally.

But it's still wrong.

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Danzig
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Personally I am against most cases of abortion, but as long as it remains legal what this guy did should be too.
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Jay
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Hey Dag, (note, I’m not trying to stir the pot here, just really asking a logical question) is there anything that talks about it having to be a legal abortion? Meaning the mother has to go to a doctor in order to abort the baby.
I can understand people arguing for abortion rights, even if I don’t agree with that, but I always thought it was to stop backroom abortions.
I guess I’m really confused on how she is protected.

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