posted
Does anyone have a link to the actual text of the law he was prosecuted under?
I'm curious to see if abortion is defined. If it's just the act of terminating a pregnancy then what he did shouldn't constitute murder, but abortion, which should change the charge against him.
There seems to be no real intelligence behind the lines being drawn here. A doctor can do it, but a boyfriend can't (which I agree with from a logical standpoint, but not in this case, legally). The mother doesn't need the doctor, she's allowed to terminate it herself, but even after making the choice to do it, if someone else helps her, it's murder.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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Cases like this are exactly why I'm a member of the ACLU. The things this guy did were stupid and despicable, and the things being done to him are, imho, really awful as well. Nobody wants to defend scum, so the ACLU is necessary. I really hope they get involved in this. The US policy regarding abortion is inconsistent as it is, but you would think they would at least attempt to hide it better than this. One person should not go to prison for life for doing what another person could do for an insurance company check. Should he be punished? Maybe. Should he be thrown away like a mass murderer? Not a chance.
Posts: 894 | Registered: Apr 2000
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quote:The US policy regarding abortion is inconsistent as it is, but you would think they would at least attempt to hide it better than this.
Why would they? The people that made this law think that the prohibition against illegalizing abortion is wrong. Why would they want to be consistent with something they view as wrong?
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The 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the law, but what if the law itself seperates people into two categories, some with certain rights that others are denied?
If two people commit one crime, they should both receive the same punishment.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote:is there anything that talks about it having to be a legal abortion? Meaning the mother has to go to a doctor in order to abort the baby.
Most of these laws state that the exemptions to this law are the mother herself or a doctor acting with the mother's consent and on her behalf, or something like that. That's how they exempt doctors who preform abortions and women who get them from a doctor, while allowing someone who does the coathanger thing or something with the result that both mother and baby die to be prosecuted for two murders (not to mention people who beat their pregnant wife to death). I've never heard of it being used in a case like this before, though, where it was apparently with the mother's consent (although how much a teenage girl knows about this stuff, I don't know) and there was apparently no lasting harm to the mother (as far as we know, again).
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Is it not logical that if a fetus is a human life, that someone who knowingly aborts it must be guilty of premeditated murder, which carries the very strictest penalties? Why, to someone who is pro-life, should someone like this kid or this girl be any less culpable under the law for aborting their fetus than they would be if they murdered their baby after it was born?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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Because Federal law currently says that abortion is a right of the mother, at least before the fetus is viable outside her body. So she can't be prosecuted for her choice.
I just wish she had had safer options-- of any kind.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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Well then Texas state law violates Federal law, at least in spirit. It's calling the termination of a fetus murder, unless the mother wants it to happen. Whereas Federal law says it isn't murder. Doesn't that contradiction have any legal rammifications?
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Federal law says that abortion by a doctor, within certain parameters, with the consent of the mother or, if she is unable to make a decision, out of medical necessity, is not considered murder, and that a mother has a right to terminate a pregnancy (again, within certain bounds). Texas law does not violate those parameters-- it just specifies that anything outside of them can be, under certain circumstances, considered murder. Most people preforming home abortions are not going to be prosecuted, because it usually doesn't come to police attention. If they were, it would probably be for practicing medicine without a license-- abortion is a medical procedure. I don't know the details of this case, but I'd guess what happened is that the girl ended up in a hospital or at a doctor for her bruises, etc., the story came out, and the DA decided to prosecute, for what reasons, I don't know.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Why didn't she just go to a doctor? That could've avoided this whole mess.
She may not have had access to one other than her family doctor; she may not have wanted her family to know. She is a minor, correct? It wasn't in effect then, but TX just passed a law saying that girls under 18 must have a parent give written consent to get an abortion. I think before that, there was already a parental notification law.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:Cases like this are exactly why I'm a member of the ACLU. The things this guy did were stupid and despicable, and the things being done to him are, imho, really awful as well. Nobody wants to defend scum, so the ACLU is necessary. I really hope they get involved in this. The US policy regarding abortion is inconsistent as it is, but you would think they would at least attempt to hide it better than this. One person should not go to prison for life for doing what another person could do for an insurance company check. Should he be punished? Maybe. Should he be thrown away like a mass murderer? Not a chance.
Again, what constitutional provision will the ACLU use here? Punishment is set by the legislature. The Court has already held that proportionality requirements of the 8th Amendment allow a 50-life sentence for shoplifting.
quote:Does the law violate the 14th amendment?
The 14th amendment guarantees equal protection under the law, but what if the law itself seperates people into two categories, some with certain rights that others are denied?
If two people commit one crime, they should both receive the same punishment.
She didn't commit a crime. He did. If two people watch a child drown when they could easily save her, one the mother and one a stranger, only the mother will go to prison for murder. Relationships matter in the law.
Is it inconsistent? In some ways yes. But, again, the state has an interest in protecting the life of an unborn child. SCOTUS has recognized this even in cases where it has allowed termination by the mother.
I happen to think the balancing act done by SCOTUS is an abomination. But it is consistent to say X is important, but Y is more important.
Remember, these babies were essentially beaten to death. Even if the law eventually allows assisted suicide, it very well might still prohibit someone from beating a willing person to death.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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kq, I said 'should'. I am well aware of what's been posted previously in this thread. Your answer does not answer my question.
To elaborate, I guess I don't understand why some pro-life people in this thread seem to feel the sentence was too harsh for the man. If he beat his [born] child to death, wouldn't you think he deserved life in prison?
I am also curious whether pro-life people feel the woman *should* have been given the same sentence, if the law was just. I am assuming they do, but, hey, you know what you do when you assume, eh?
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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quote:I am also curious whether pro-life people feel the woman *should* have been given the same sentence, if the law was just. I am assuming they do, but, hey, you know what you do when you assume, eh?
Yes, the law should be such that the woman should face the same possible sentence. And were the law so, I bet the woman's story would have been very different.
I'm against mandatory life without parole in general, for all crimes, unless there's a sentencing determination of some kind. This law doesn't appear to have the same grading that manslaughter/murder laws have, and I consider that a weakness in the way the law is set up. If there were lesser included offenses, that would serve the purpose. But I can't tell if there are.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I’d agree that the sentence seems harsh. Especially with what we’re used to. But then I think about abortions being murder of an unborn baby and how we treat murders. Then I think about the violent way they went about this particular abortion. It’s almost nice to see that the baby’s rights for once have been that into account. I do agree that the kids needed help. I doubt he’ll be in jail for life and do hope that they can get themselves straightened out and somehow learn a life lesson.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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I'm sure a decade or two in prison will teach him plenty of life lessons that will enable him to be a much more productive member of society when, and if, he gets out.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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As a pro-life person, I absolutely think both of them should be charged, but I understand the law does not allow the girl to be charged.
I think this type of issue is just going to get thornier and thornier. With all the advances in medicine since Roe vs. Wade was originally decided, we now know much, much more about life in the womb. Even people who profess to be pro-choice have told me one on one that they believe the fetus is a living child, and that they would never themselves be able to have an abortion. They just believe the rights of the woman supersede that of the baby.
In cases like this we're starting to see the conflict - if the fetuses are living beings, then it should be a crime to harm them. So in that case, I think the law is a good thing as it protects the rights of the unborn.
However, we run into a quandary - if the fetus deserves protection against a stranger or even their own father, why does it not deserve protection against its own mother? Or from a doctor?
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I just don't see that someone raised in a culture where abortion is legal should be prosecuted for murder for "helping" their girlfriend in a case like this. Practicing medicine without a license, yes. Assault, quite possibly.
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I agree Belle. It’s very exciting to think that we might be on the road to finally protecting the rights of unborn babies.
Posts: 2845 | Registered: Oct 2003
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Just as a question, if I perform an unsuccessful kidney transplant operation and both people die, Have I committed murder? At best I could only be charged with practicing medicine without a license? Possibly assault, but if they were both willing then how could it be assault?
Posts: 1918 | Registered: Mar 2005
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I would say manslaughter as well. While you may not intend to kill them, you've willfully endangered their lives by performing a procedure you're not trained for. I would say practicing medicine without a license would be an additional charge, but not the only one.
Of course everythign I know about the law I learned from watching Law and Order so my view is not something that should be taken as gospel. Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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I dunno, trying to do a kidney transplant without a license suggests either insanity or willfull intent to do harm to me.
"Yes, officer, that is correct. My exgirlfriend needed a new kidney and her new boyfriend offered to donate one, so I just facilitated the process."
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quote:I'm sure a decade or two in prison will teach him plenty of life lessons that will enable him to be a much more productive member of society when, and if, he gets out.
That's a general statement about punishment and criminal justice, not about protection of the life of the unborn.
quote:Just as a question, if I perform an unsuccessful kidney transplant operation and both people die, Have I committed murder? At best I could only be charged with practicing medicine without a license? Possibly assault, but if they were both willing then how could it be assault?
At minimum, it would be negligent homicide. I'd argue it's recklessness, which moves it up to manslaughter, or reckless disregard for the value of human life, which could make it murder 2.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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"I dunno, trying to do a kidney transplant without a license suggests either insanity or willfull intent to do harm to me." Well, it really isn't different than what these two did. Except that in the kidney case they are all actively trying to save a life, and in the abortion case they are actively trying to murder a life. In both cases they have to be a little insane and a little willful to do harm
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