posted
I haven't seen the first trilogy (4-6) in a while, and when I saw Episode I after II I got confused. After all - when I first saw Episode I, I was too young to get a thing.
How did the armies' management go along I, II, III, and onwards to VI? Who controlled what? In episode I the troopers are good, and in V they're bad; all confusing.
What WERE the armies constcted of? Jedis, droids, troopes and what else? Can someone sort out the mess in my mind?
Jonathan Howard
Posts: 358 | Registered: May 2005
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Episode I: Droids (Trade Federation) vs. Gungans and Naboo (Acting in their own interests) The trade federation was working with the sith to blockade Naboo. Th gungans (Jar-Jar's people) and the Naboo army fought against them.
Episode II: Droids and Geonosians (Seperatists) vs Clone Troopers and Jedi (Republic) At this point there was an official attempt to break away from the republic by the seperatist movement. The Geonosians were the flying creatures at the end of the movie. The clone troopers were used at the end of the movie by the republic.
Episode III: Pre Order 66: Droids (Seperatists) vs Clone Troopers and Jedi (Republic) Post Order 66: Clone Troopers (Empire) vs Jedi (Republic) vs Droids(Seperatists) At the beginning of the movie, it was pretty much the same as in episode II. However, after order 66, the clone troopers turned against the jedi, and the empire was formed by Palpatine. The clone troopers mopped up the remaining seperatists, and helped destroy the jedi order.
Episode IV Storm Troopers (Empire) vs. Rebel Troops (Rebellion) The clone troopers are gone now, replaced by the much less efficient Storm Troopers. Why? We aren't sure. They look a lot like the clone troopers, but they aren't clones. The rebellion is made up of anyone not happy with the empire.
Episode V Storm Troopers (Empire) vs. Rebel Troops (Rebellion)
Episode VI Storm Troopers (Empire) vs. Rebel Troops and Ewoks (Rebellion) Ewoks helped the rebels take the forest moon of Endor.
Help any? Of course in the time it took to write this, I am sure someone has posted a much better explanation.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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posted
Senator Palpatine was the Chancellor, the head of the government. In the Civil war against the seperatists (Trade Federation, Commerce guilds, etc- whose used Battle Droins and droid controlled ships, buzz droids, etc) the clones were the Republic's army. Thus, Palpatine was presumably (as in the US military, which GL probably used as a model) the commander in chief.
The Jedi, while seperate from the Government and independent, at least in their Jedi Council, were often used by all the Chancellors. Chancellor Valorum dispatched Qui Gon and Obi-Wan as ambassasors in EpI. They worked with the clones in the waw, primarily as commanding officers.
However, according to the chain of command, the decisions of the chancellor ultimately where the final word. And the clones had no qualms (no emotion whatsoever) about following any order, including exterminating their up-till-then brothers in arms. Which they did.
And they continued to do the bidding of the the newly proclaimed emperor.
Presumably, the Kaminoans had kept Fett around for fresh infusions of DNA from the source (for whatever SF reason). After Fett was killed, eventually they would need a new source, or even multiple sources. So by the time of EpIV, not all the stormtroopers had to be identical clones. The could have been groups of clones. They might even have included conscripts, to offset the cost of clones.
But at all times, once they became an army of the republic, the clones obeyed Palpatine.
The droid armies of the seperatists were deactivated and seperatist leaders killed. So that army, uniquely, went away almost overnight.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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There was a question in one of the new SW magazines that asked why Luke and Han didn't comment on the clones stormtroopers. The answer given was that they might have been differing groups of clones, they might have included conscripts, everyone might have KNOWN they were clones, so it wasn't a big deal, or they MIGHT HAVE commented on it, but we didn't see that scene.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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I always thought Leia's comment to Luke "Aren't you a bit short for a stormtrooper." held out that they were still clones. That, or just some height requisite to enlist.
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Me too Feyd, but I've had star wars fanatics tell me that's not true. I guess there was some official source or something stating that.
Posts: 5656 | Registered: Oct 1999
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I don't think there's anything anywhere (at least officially) that states that the Stormtroopers are NOT clones. I think that was the assumption. That because "Clone Wars" was spoken of in the past tense (in EpIV) that the clones themselves were in the past as well.
In fact, I recall reading somewhere that Leia's line you quoted DID in fact indicate that they were clones.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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A lot of the EU stuff assumes that the OT timeframe had a lot of conscription going on to fill the ranks, and that the clone making facilities had been destroyed, perhaps during the Clone Wars. We know that GL doesn't care about that, but it may be where some of those ideas came from.
Kyle Katarn, stealer of Death Star plans
Posts: 85 | Registered: May 2002
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If George Lucas had thought of them as clones when he did the OT he would have mentioned it at some point. You can take Leia's comment however you like to make the whole thing fit, but I seriously doubt GL meant it that way when he was first writing it.
Perhaps there was some sickness which clones were easily affected by and they all died out.
Posts: 3564 | Registered: Sep 2001
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There's a LOT of SWU stuff in which Stormtroopers are quite definitively not clones. But Lucas clearly didn't mind urinating all over the SWU's continuity with the prequels, so...
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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Yes, the Trade Federation was seperatist. Dooku started (at Sidious behest) the Seperatist movement. It's most visible members were the differing Commerce guilds- like the banking clan, the Geonosians. In EpII, Nute Gunray told Dooku he would not join until Padme was dead. But he did join, later. Which is why he was with the other seperatists when Darth Vader "took care of them."
Tom, I don't mind urinating on a lot of EU stuff, myself. So, you know.
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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posted
Anyone reminded of the movie Multiplicity? Where the clones got dumber and more degraded (and not in a dirty minded sense) with each generation?
I also don't think that Lucas had clones for the stormtroopers in the original series. And I do remember some of the extended universe books commenting on the destruction of the cloning facilities but I don't remember if those books mentioned specifically what the facilities' purposes were. I also remember there being issues with the original and a clone both alive at the same time, something about sharing the exact Force vibration or something like that.
So maybe Lucas "borrowed" the clone idea from the EU and because of Force degradation or lack of original genetic material or whatever else, by the time we get to EpIV, clones are too unstable to rely on exclusively for a military force.
Posts: 4515 | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Well, Lucas couldn't have borrowed the Clone idea from the EU because he (or rather, Obi Wan) mentioned the "Clone Wars" in EpIV when explaining to Luke that his father had NOT been a navigator on a freighter. He mentioned it twice.
Those two mentions were it, so viewers might have been excused in thinking that whatever happened with clones, it was all past. The term 'Clone Wars' can carry the idea that the war was 'normal' humanity against the clones. So alltogether, it's easy to assume the Stormtroopers were not clones at all and that clones were a thing of the past, a lesson that was learned. Even Zahn went this route.
But with the prequels, we see the Clones were not the enemy against all of humanity, per se. Rather, they were merely tools of the government. A government still in existence. No doubt there are multiple groups of clones, and probably conscripts for jobs requiring more inventiveness. And clearly officers are not (and cannot) be clones.
So Clones can be seen as merely another aspect of a more and more totalitarian regime. (Though even then, the government had to maintain a facade of freedom and nod to democracy, at least presumably in the interior. That's why the senate, albeit the imperial senate, is still around 20 years later for EpIV. That's why Vader made sure to make it look like everyone on that ship (beginning of EpIV) was killed, so he'd have a free hand. Otherwise, it would 'generate sympathy for the rebellion in the senate.')
Posts: 1346 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote:Originally posted by IanO: I don't think there's anything anywhere (at least officially) that states that the Stormtroopers are NOT clones. I think that was the assumption. That because "Clone Wars" was spoken of in the past tense (in EpIV) that the clones themselves were in the past as well.
In fact, I recall reading somewhere that Leia's line you quoted DID in fact indicate that they were clones.
Actually, this issue has been the topic of debate among many fans, but Lucas himself recently set it straight. To summarize, he says that by the time of the original trilogy stormtroopers include a mix of clones and recruits since it's more cost efficient for the Empire to simply pay to train recruits rather that purchase clones. The only reason to buy clones in the first place is if you need a really big and well trained army really fast. Since the Empire no longer needs that, clones were being phased out. Also, what clones they still did have came from multiple sources, not just Jango Fett. So the EU material which features non-clone stormtroopers has not been invalidated. By the way, if you think I just made that up, I can probably dig up the link to the interview with Lucas. It was on ign.com somewhere.
Leia's comment about Luke being too short to be a stormtrooper (which sounded more sarcastic than serious) only holds up as proof that they're all clones if every trooper is in fact the same height. There are times when you can see that they are not.
Posts: 1569 | Registered: Dec 2004
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