quote:Originally posted by Lyrhawn: There are a ton of things I disagree with America about, and things that I don't love about America, but that doesn't mean I still don't love the idea of America. I've always been one to like the idea of America more than what America really is, as I don't think at the moment we are living up to our potential, or to our mandate.
A good paragraph, it sums up how I feel about America. I wish America and Americans would try harder to live up to our potential.
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What about people in the 70's (might be off on the decade) who burned the flag to protest American support of apartheid in South Africa?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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This whole flag-burning thing seems more counterproductive than anything else. "I have an unpopular anti-American opinion. I know! I'll make sure everyone else in America gets really mad at me for it!"
As far as prayer in school goes, I would think that Christians shouldn't have a problem with the restrictions. Aren't Christian prayers supposed to be held in closets and private spaces, and not for the ears of the world?
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Burning a flag is not the only way to protest something is it? Maybe it gets the point across that you are disgusted, but to a lot of people you will simply upset them because you are burning a flag. They won't care what you are protesting, only that you are desecrating something that they hold dear.
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"I do think they should be...removed from society. Put them in jail, give them a ticket to whatever place wants them..."
Wouldn't it be cheaper to send you off to NorthKorea/Iran/Zimbabwe/etc where your respect for human rights will be appreciated?
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Burning the Flag is a good way to preach to the converted, but is lousy for gaining new converts. Any group stumbling to that level is not one that will have much of an impact, except to infuriate the nationalists into a frenzy that the burnes will call fascistic.
Besides if we enshrine the flag or any other symbol instead of our rights, then we lose those rights to what is, after all, a piece of cloth that anyone can make and wave around.
What makes the flag special is the spirit that lays behind it. Don't confuse the cloth with the heart and blood it represents.
Pity those who desecrate it. Realize how sorry their existance is, how low they have fallen to take out their pathetic anger on the flag, but do not give them strength or voice by talking about them. What you would see as punishment is what they and their followers will see as martyrdom. They can grow strong with that. They can not bear our pity.
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There is a difference between burning the flag in protest, and burning it in hatred.
When militants burn an American flag in the streets of Iran or wherever, that is totally different than say African American rights activists burning it in the 50's and 60's. Unless you are trying to make the claim that those who were protesting their lack of freedom are in fact against freedom.
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quote: Besides if we enshrine the flag or any other symbol instead of our rights, then we lose those rights to what is, after all, a piece of cloth that anyone can make and wave around.
What makes the flag special is the spirit that lays behind it. Don't confuse the cloth with the heart and blood it represents.
That's what I wanted to say. I think of it as a "put up or shut up" kind of thing. What better test to see who truly believes in the first amendment.
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I agree on a personal level, Crotalus. But just because there are other ways to protest does not mean we should force a person to use those other ways because we find their way offensive.
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Yours is the best made point so far. My problem with this whole thing is that I find it very hard to disassociate the flag with what it represents. When it is desecrated, it is a statement against those things it represents. To me, anyway. The martyrdom point is well made, but I don't have any pity for them. And I think they might eventually make martyrs of themselves and take out a few thousand American citizens with them. It has happened before and is what we should be wary of.
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As for "They can not bear our pity." I really don't think they care if we pity them or not. I seriously doubt that pitying them has any effect at all. People like this will hate us regardless of what we do.
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"People like this will hate us regardless of what we do."
I don't believe that is true.
I also think it is dangerous to simply dismiss everyone who is anti-American as people who hate liberty and freedom, and only want to destroy America so a dictatorship can reign.
That kind of thinking is what got us into a lot of the messes we are in today.
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I believe it is true of this group of people. The ones in the story that I linked to--I am not generalizing to mean all Muslims. And I was not talking about dismissing everyone who is anti-American. I was talking specifically about those who are on American soil desecrating American flags and proposing to overthrow the government. When they do this sort of things in the streets of their own cities, fine. Just don't do it here and expect me to like it.
What messes are we in, btw? Are you one of those that think everything is America's fault. Sorry, I don't have an acronym for it. And I have yet to see a benign dictatorship.
Okay, I got to go home now. Peace.
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I don't think so Cro. People like them love themselves and want to be seen as hero's, fighting the impossible fight to be remembered forever as the good guys. If you scream at them or fight them, you are the enemy that must be destroyed. However, they have convinced themselves that everyone else agrees with them, but are afraid, or will when they know the truth.
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Pity on them shows that they are not brave and noble, and that our opposition to them is not mean or evil.
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There's a fancy acronym for everything, just takes a little imagination.
And no, I don't think that everything is America's fault, though I think it is incredibly ignorant to pretend that nothing is our fault. If people want to hate us for trying to spread the ideals of America, that isn't our fault. If they hate us for invading them, then gee, don't you think there might be something to it?
If I was in a smaller country (basically every country except Russia and China) that was being pushed around by America with little to no care to what I thought, then yes, I'd be angry at America, and yes, it would be America's fault.
I don't think the USA needs to bow to every foreign demand, we still have our own national interests, our own defensive needs, but we don't have to be a prick to the entire world. Are we a world leader, or a world dictator?
Recognizing the source of foreign anger is a good way to figure out how to diffuse it, or to stop it from spreading to other places.
Ignoring the source and chalking it all up to senseless haters of freedom is a good way to get blown up.
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The day flag-burning is made illegal is the day I plan to start.
I wonder if there would be a market for toilet paper rolls with American flags printed on one side and Koran verses on the other.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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Something Rakeesh said at the beginning made me think: about flag-burning as a nonviolent form of protest. I think I have to disagree.
Burning something not created for burning (such as incense) actually strikes me as a rather violent form of protest. Burning something destroys it, and in this context symbolizes the desired destruction of at least some of what that thing you're burning stands for. I'd venture to say that while it might be a *less* violent means of protest (less violent than, say, a riot) it's definitely not a "nonviolent" protest. It's more violent than picketing, shouting slogans, sit-ins and a host of other protest activities.
For the record, however, I do not think it should be a banned activity. I do see it as a form of protected speech.
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I don't think flag-burning is more violent than a sit-in (which deprives a person of the use of his real property) or picketing (when the picketing actually stops entrance to the property - some does, some doesn't.) Both take something from someone else, and do it by physically preventing others from using the space.
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Fair enough. I'd disagree, only in that fire is so very injury-making and destructive. The place the sit-inners sit or the picketers picket is still standing when the protest is over. What has been burned doesn't get reconstituted, and you never have the use of it again.
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True, but it wasn't taken from someone (I assume - pulling down the flag in front of the courthouse and burning it would go up in violence).
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I'll give you that. How about the implied destruction that accompanies the burning, though? That strikes me as a more violent message than the physical barrier.
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Fire is only destructive when it is put to destructive use. Things that seem inherently dangerous don't have to be, just as things that seem inherently safe can be very dangerous.
A campfire isn't a threat, until you take a burning ember to someone's tent. Rope isn't dangerous, until you lynch somebody with it. It's all a matter of perspective.
It's all a matter of degrees though. You separate things into two categories, violent and non-violent, and then delve into those categories by listing them by degree of violence even further. But it never really gets you anywhere.
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quote: America isnt easy, America is advanced citizenship, you gotta want it bad because its gonna put up a fight. Its gonna say, you want free speech? Lets see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil whose standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You wanna claim this land as a land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. It also has to be, one of its citizens excercising his right to burn that flag in protest. -The American President
I really like that quote.
Posts: 457 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
Yep, they're idiots. Dan's right, I think. Pity is the way to go. If we outlaw flag burning, these people will see themselves as martyrs. If we shake our heads at what amounts to a temper tantrum, and permit it to continue because it harms no one, then we will at least gain respect from the outside world when they see that we tolerate hate speech against us because we value freedom.
America has committed wrongs, yes. It isn't perfect, and it never will be. But there are some things that this country has gotten very right. I love the freedom we have. I am glad to be a part of a nation that allows its citizens to burn its flag. Permitting offensive speech is at the very heart of what makes this country special. You don't like it? Tough. Go move to someplace like Saudi Arabia where they don't tolerate that sort of thing.
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quote: Oh I'm fine with people disagreeing with me, but I do think there should be a line that you don't cross when it comes to these sorts of things.
I think
quote:I'm talking about drawing a line in the sand, Dude. Across this line you do not, uh--and also, Dude, Chinaman is not the preferred, uh. . .nomenclature, Asian- American. Please.
So, Crotalus, are you a Ditto-Head? There seems to be very convincing arguments that you are not addressing. I do not see you defending your position, except when you make a point about, "adhering to your enemies." I think that was addressed satisfactorily.
The constant reassertion of your opinions without addressing legitimate concerns sounds like Ditto-Head tactics. All that is left to do is to link flag-burning to 9/11.
quote: Just don't do it here and expect me to like it.
I don't think anyone expects you to like it. I think they expect you to accept it and keep it legal.
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quote:And I have yet to see a benign dictatorship.
*sigh* they do exist, they're scattered about history. You just have to do a little looking. Not that I'm advocating this form of government, but that caught my eye and I thought I'd point out: such a thing isn't all that uncommon.
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quote: Walter : I'm sorry, Smokey. You were over the line, that's a foul. ... Walter : [pulls out a gun] Smokey, you are about to enter a world of pain.
posted
"Permitting offensive speech is at the very heart of what makes this country special. You don't like it? Tough. Go move to someplace like Saudi Arabia where they don't tolerate that sort of thing."
I don't think I've heard the LILI argument work in that direction before....I like it. Not saying I'd go as far as to say move to Saudi Arabia, but I like that you're defending free speech rather than saying shut up and leave.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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quote: America isnt easy, America is advanced citizenship, you gotta want it bad because its gonna put up a fight. Its gonna say, you want free speech? Lets see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil whose standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours. You wanna claim this land as a land of the free? Then the symbol of your country cannot just be a flag. It also has to be, one of its citizens excercising his right to burn that flag in protest. -The American President
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lem, this works too: 
