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The movie borrows not a few things from The Dark Knight Returns: the young Bruce Wayne confronting the primeval bats/id in the cave, the burning of the mansion, for example. The movie just didn't do a very good job of weaving the symbolic significance of those things into an easilly appreciated whole.
Frank Miller's 'version' is closest to what Batman would have to be in reality. Look, the Batman hurts people, hurts them badly, in the name of vengeance. Not justice, vengeance. He doesn't do it from afar with ranged weapons or with his mind or with super powers, he hurts them with his hands, his flesh meeting theirs in a very intimate way where he is fully part and parcel of their pain.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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(I think Crispin Glover would be a better Riddler, should they ever choose to revive that character. I love Johnny Depp, but I hope he's never in a Batman movie.)
Posts: 6415 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I think Batman is probably always crossing that line back and forth, it's a constant battle he fights with himself. Is he fighting for justice, or for vengeance, or both? Certainly in the comics, both takes have had their day many times.
However I should say that when he can avoid it, Batman hurts and incapacitates them from afar, rather than in melee.
Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Imagining that superheroes of the Batman stripe did exist, I'd imagine that their formation would share a lot with that of serial killers.
One of the many, many thing I really liked about Watchmen was the (I think unintened) presentation of the two sides of Batman in the teaming of Nite Owl and Rorschach.
Posts: 10177 | Registered: Apr 2001
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I think it'd be great if in the sequel Bruce starts getting consumed by the criminal world and grows darker. Like, he continually goes into the Narrows to look for the inmates who escaped and sees something horrific stuff, though that may be hard to pull off in a PG-13 movie, and I doubt the studio would want to make an R rated Batman movie. The kiddys love him.
Watched Mask of the Phantasm recently and I can't decide if Begins truly is my favorite Batman movie. If the creators of the animated series were able to make it without having to worry about it being basically "for kids," (Sorry, had to pause to laugh) then there's no doubt in my mind they could make a movie that was twice as good as Begins. Just look at all the differences between Batman Beyond:Return of the Joker cut and uncut.
Kevin Conroy will always be the best Batman to me.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Speaking as somebody who hasn't read any Batman ... well, anything, I loved this movie. Michael Cain, Tom Wilkinson, Gary Oldman, MORGAN FREEMAN! Heck, this movie had everybody, and everybody was good.
I don't know what the rest of you were expecting, but I was pleased. A trip to this movie made my birthday so much better! Posts: 1664 | Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:Originally posted by MrSquicky: One of the many, many thing I really liked about Watchmen was the (I think unintened) presentation of the two sides of Batman in the teaming of Nite Owl and Rorschach.
It was intended to be Blue Beetle II and the Question, though more has said that Rorshach was also his commentary on the many popular "obsessed psychotic" heroes of the early-to-mid 80s.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I finally saw it a week or so ago and loved it. My friend suggested Christian Bale made such a good Batman because he most resembled Michael Keaton.
I guess I don't have much to add to the discussion, though. I haven't read all that much Batman - just Year One and Long Halloween at the behest of my roommate, and those were read in line for Star Wars Posts: 3932 | Registered: Sep 1999
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I'd like to see Dick Grayson introduced in the next movie. Not as Robin, but as the younger kid that Bruce Wayne finds and adopts and later becomes Robin. That way it's set up for the third movie, and makes a nice little character development sub plot.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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After seeing Begins for the fourth time (with me parents) I stated that Ra's was a good guy who fundamentally lacked hope.
I just watched the Incredibles. Would you consider Batman himself to be a good guy without hope, a vicious avenger of the night fighting a war he cannot win because he is driven to fight it, or a bad guy with too much hope in the right place, in comparison with what the Incredibles presents as the American standard of superheroism: expecting perfection and heroism when, at times, it is humanly impossible. Should we expect a man to fulfill the wishes of a public needing an animate gargoyle, or should we wish something more... human, and American? Because, I feel, that the truly American superhero is Superman, a living god, whereas Batman is more a psychological and existential statement, vulnerable and finite.
[ July 01, 2005, 04:07 AM: Message edited by: Book ]
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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"You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory because it is better to perish then live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
Actually, I guess it's ultimately a Norse sentiment. I'm reminded also Theoden's words-- "No... we cannot win... but we will FIGHT."
I don't see Batman as without hope, but as someone who recognizes that being on the right side of the battle does not necessarily mean being on the winning side.
In fact, though, the movie shows Batman as very hopeful-- he has a plan and a purpose. He wants to make himself a symbol for the city... the way his father was.
But you may be on to something with Superman... America of today seems to worship the most powerful and successful... the winners.
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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Neither Batman nor Superman could truly be considered 'true American superheroes', because either their background, their methods, or their motivations are too different from 'the American Dream'.
Superman had no choice in the matter of his abilities. He was essentially born 'super' (yes, he had to move, first). Batman was also born with vast wealth-and although he built Batman from nothing, his methods certainly don't truck with the American Dream-that if you follow the rules, do things right, work hard, then you will achieve success. His motivations aren't a sense of honorable civic duty, even though that plays a part.
America of 'today' 'worships' the most powerful and successful...just like America of the past, humanity of the past.
Batman undeniably has hope, although depending on which comic you're reading it's alternated with bouts of different durations of hardcore cynicism. Batman believes he can win his War on Crime-although whether he forces himself to believe it so he'll keep fighting, or he genuinely believes it, I don't know. But he's not like Superman. He sticks to Gotham almost to a fault.
Ra's is a good guy only in the sense that we're all good guys-he doesn't see himself as evil.
The thing is that like most comics, Batman's motivations and even the more tangible things like his biography change from writer to writer. Unlike many other comics, though, Batman's psyche (for lack of a better word) can arguably be said to be so warped and injured due to his childhood trauma-repeated referenes to constant nightly, agonizing, terrifying nightmares about his parents' murders-that this makes some sense, even though it's really because of changing writers Posts: 17164 | Registered: Jun 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Dagonee: There's an uncut version of "Batman Beyond:Return of the Joker." Oh my, I have to find that.
It's really good. If you saw the first time CN showed the movie, then you basically saw the uncut version, except for the major thing that was taken out that basically changes the entire movie. Well, sort of. Also, if you watch the commentaries on it, they say that there was other stuff that they wanted to do, but weren't allowed.
--
I've seen BB twice, and still want to see it one more time before it hits DVD, though I might since I have yet to see War of the Worlds and Howl's Moving Castle.
Was dissapointed with the group I went to go see it with the second time. One had no comment, one said it was alright, and apparently the last didn't really like it at all. Oddly enough, the last one mentioned really likes Batman: Returns, though he admitted Penguin is his favorite villan and that might be the only reason.
On a side not, I'm really disapointed on the action figures for this movie. Twenty different Batmans, basically one of which is close to the Batman in the movie, one scarecrow, and a Batmobile. Sigh, but that's how Batman toys always go.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Return of the Joker freaked me out, seriously. Only time an animated movie has ever done that.
SPOILER That was the one where the new Robin was fiddled with by Joker and made into a joker creature himself right?
That REALLY messed with my head. I like the animated series. I just bought Batman TAS: Season 1 on DVD and it's really great. Mostly because I've been watching "Heart of Ice" non stop, as Mr. Freeze is and always will be my favorite character in Batman.
Mask of the Phantasm in my opinion is better than most of the Batman live action movies. I like Subzero too, which many don't, but only because it has Freeze in it.
Just curious, is the line that Freeze speaks at the beginning of Heart of Ice, "Revenge is a dish best served cold" an original line from him, or did they steal it from Star Trek? Anyone know?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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I believe it's a Spanish Proverb, or that's how it's attributed in the beginning of a Stephen King short story.
The Return of the Joker is the type of Joker I would like to see on the big screen. The Joker is not funny. The Joker is terrifyingly insane.
Posts: 2258 | Registered: Aug 2003
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That is most deffintly the movie, Lyr. I'm probably going to get Batman TAS: Season 1 soon. It's a really great series, just wish it had more special features like it deserves.
"The Return of the Joker is the type of Joker I would like to see on the big screen."
Same here. To me he is or at least one of the most evil comic book villans ever.
Posts: 142 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote:It's really good. If you saw the first time CN showed the movie, then you basically saw the uncut version, except for the major thing that was taken out that basically changes the entire movie. Well, sort of. Also, if you watch the commentaries on it, they say that there was other stuff that they wanted to do, but weren't allowed.
Hmm. I have it on DVD. Does that mean I have the uncut version?
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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First! Everyone should go see this movie. Some of you may have been dissappointed from the previous Batman movies and you well should have. They were crap. Even the first one was poorly done. Batman Begins was made to near perfection. Why you ask? Because there are two groups of people this movie had to satisfy. On one hand you have the comic fan. This person is looking for accuracy to the comic. Those small details that any ordinary person will not pick up. The fan does not want to see a rip off. And if you are a fan you will be greatly rewarded. When Mr. Kane first started Batman so many years ago all those details of where the car comes from, where the suit came from, the cave, the mansion..all of those things where explained in detail. And in this movie they are true to the mark. You WILL NOT leave the theatre unhappy. Now as for the person how could care less for comics. This movie will make you a fan. This is a dark movie. It is not in the least bit campy. This is a movie about pain and suffering and how these things once controlled can drive someone to do what is right regardless of what is fighting against him. The acting is immaculate. Bale is Bruce Wayne. The thing you have to realize when you go to see this movie though, as someone who does not read comics, is that Bruce Wayne is not a spider man or a superman. He is a man who, regardless of having all the money in the world, has nothing but pain and guilt inside of him. But from that pain comes and even greater determination to make sure that what happened to him never happens to anyone again. If you understand this then you can understand that you the movie goer are probably alot like Bruce. Given what happens to him in the movie you will realize that you too if you had the chance would possibly consider the same course of action. Go see this movie.
Posts: 51 | Registered: Mar 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Book: Yeah, how does it happen in the edited version?
Really lame. Tim just plays a harmless prank on the Joker, who gets so ticked off that he electrocutes himself. Accidentally.
Posts: 6689 | Registered: Jan 2005
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I thought of a loophole for the Microwave thing...
They specifically say "focused microwaves"
The thing could be a MASER (laser operating in Microwave ranges)and then, on the train, it would be aimed straight down at the water main and not cause harm to nearby people...
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I agreed to see this only because my dear hubby often sees movies he isn't interested in simply because I want to see them. However, I loved it. Christian Bale was incredible. I even liked Katie Holmes. She played a character that was so much more mature than she personally comes off in the media lately. I personally get a little squeamish with the violence but thats just me. The movie was so much better than the others....
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