posted
I think that this particular male is very much a boy, especially given his actions. I'm interested by the frequent use of the term "older man" in this thread, which to me implies someone approaching or past fifty.
Note that I haven't said everyone else is wrong, merely that I'm somewhat surprised by (and interested in) the differences in labelling.
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quote:I'm interested by the frequent use of the term "older man" in this thread, which to me implies someone approaching or past fifty.
It implies that he's older than his wife. Is there a way you would prefer to phrase it?
Since this is at least partially a legal discussion, I'm working with the legal definition of adulthood, which is 18.
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posted
Twinky, I think the "older man" is in context of the girl.
I mean, you as a 24 year old "boy" wouldn't sleep with a thirteen year old girl.
And in that context, if you did, you wouldn't be a "boy". You'd be a man, and an older man at that (than your victim), breaking the law.
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posted
I agree that he wasn’t acting like a “grown up.” But legally he is a grown-up and responsible for his actions. Adults also have, I believe, a responsibility to protect children. Not necessarily to go out of their way to help children, but certainly to control their own actions to avoid harming them. A 22 year old has that adult responsibility to a 13 year old, IMO.
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posted
Yeah, that's what I figured the justification was. It makes sense, I just have a hard time applying that label to a 22-year-old (probably because of how I think of myself).
My life certainly has most of the properties of an adult's, minus debt and marriage (if those things are considered properties of an adult life; I don't think so but others might). Added: But all the same, I don't think of myself as an adult or a man.
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I definitely think of myself exclusively as a "boy," or maybe a "young man" if I were to push it. I don't mean to say that I can't handle responsibility, but rather that I reserve the right to do irresponsible things (outside of work) when I see fit -- and I view being irresponsible as a privilege reserved for "boys." Posts: 10886 | Registered: Feb 2000
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posted
I'm still irresponsible. It's just my husband gets to pick me up after a night of cocktails with the girls. Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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posted
I think the real loser here is the state of Kansas.........13 yr olds getting married?............Anyone wanna play kick-a-hick?
Posts: 128 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Now that I think about it, I think older children have a responsibility not to hurt younger children. If a thirteen-year old did something that would be likely to cause harm to a 4 year old that thirteen year old should be confronted by the appropriate authorities. Which in that case would be the parents. This 22 year old boy has graduated from his parents authority to the community authority, in the form of the law. So whether he’s a man or a boy is irrelevant, except in determining who is responsible for calling him to account.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote: Maybe they need to vote more and put and end to legal "sex with kids"!!!!!!
Maybe you should think thoroughly about the subject at hand instead of personally attacking people for things they have no control over.
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In a social context, I'm still one of the girls. We have fun.
Less so since we've all started graduating and getting *real* jobs, leaving the uni lifestyle - but when we get together we have fun. My hens night was *great* fun.
In a work context, I'm a woman. I'm a great graduate, I have excellent grades and I expect to be employed as a professional woman.
In my home life, I'm an adult. I have a mortgage - with Tony. We provide for ourselves and we look after ourselves.
Posts: 4393 | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:I find it interesting that some people, and evidently the law, believe that someone has the power to consent to marriage before they are capable of consenting to sex.
The law, even in Kansas, doesn't recognize that she has the power on her own to consent to marriage, though. She couldn't have gotten married in Kansas without parental consent.
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posted
She had to agree to the marriage but I am not sure a pregnant thirteen year old is going to be very realistic in her conceptions of what a marriage entails. 13 is around 6th grade? That seems to me to be a stage where most relationships last a matter of days and love comes and goes as often as night and day.
I understand that there are trials to being a single teen mom but I don't really see how being married doesn't just open up a whole new can of worms. I have a really hard time imagining a normal balance of power in this relationship. She can't drive, is still in middle school, can't hold a job, and probably has little credibility in the adult world among his peers. Seems like a recipe for a failed marriage. I wonder if her mom simply didn't want to deal with a baby in the house and the ensuing scandal.
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*thinks back when she was 13* Wow... I had so many infatuations back then...and really, all throughout high school. The thought that I might've married any of them.... *shudder*
posted
Eighth grade...that was Grant. He was tall, blond, and could sing very well. I was so nervous around him, but he never noticed me at all. He was an older man - 15.
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posted
Really? Don't most people turn 18 in 12th, meaning 17 in 11th, 16 in 10th, 15 in 9th, 14 in 8th, 13 in 7th?
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
At what point does a person become an adult (in your eyes) Twinky?
I don't know when I first started thinking of myself as an adult. I think it was around when my mother died. Probably when my mind got around the idea that no matter what I do (however small or large- such as going out and drinking) it influences those around me for good or bad. I suppose being an adult to me is accepting responsibility for your actions and shouldering responsibility without qualm. (PON, I think myself as a 'young adult' in the regard that I'm young, but an adult)
I find it surprising you don't think of yourself as an adult
*** And onto the -real- subject. I think, in this society, marriage at 13 is too young. I think this guy should have investigated into by the 'judge' who married them.
Posts: 944 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
If you turn 5 before September and start Kindergarten right after that, then you'll be 17 right before your senior year starts. You won't turn 18 until right before college.
If you turn 5 after September and start Kindergarten the next year, you'll turn 6 soon after starting. Then you'll turn 18 right after starting your senior year.
So, it varies. And some people skip grades or get held back.
posted
A quick google search turns up this from Questia
The tender age of Juliet Capulet provides the focus of the initial conversation between Lord Capulet and Count Paris in Romeo and Juliet. She is still a child, says her father, "a straunger in the world" who "hath not seene the chaunge of fourteen yeares"; she should be at least 16, he says, before she will be ready for marriage.(1) In Shakespeare's primary source, a long narrative poem by Brooke, she is 16 (or nearly so), and in another English version he might have known, the translation of a novella by Bandello, she is almost 18, yet in both accounts she is still considered too young for marriage.(2) A very young Juliet, therefore, appears to have been Shakespeare's idea. Is it to emphasize the "charm of her girlish directness, the pathos of her passion," to amplify the drama of her progress from innocence to suicide, or merely to "apologize to the audience for the boy who played so difficult a part"?(3) As for Romeo's age, Shakespeare makes him merely a "yong" man (E3; 2.4.119), whereas Brooke describes him as so young his "tender chyn" sports no beard (54), thus perhaps 15-17, and Bandello gives his age as 20 or 21 (349).
Posts: 416 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
Even if this marriage was in the best interests of everyone involved, I would be most concerned about the precedent it sets for future relationships. It's basically saying that statutory rape is permissable if the couple plan on getting married sometime in the future, or it might force a child into a lifelong commitment of marriage regardless of whether or not the child is ready for such a commitment.
The fact that the parents approve the marriage means nothing, because there is no reason to believe that they are even decent parents.
Regarding the age of marriage in relation to examples throughout history, cultural priorities have changed drastically in the last several centuries. Just because people in a certain society hundreds of years ago got married at an early age, it doesn't mean that it's advisable in our society.
The man knew what he was doing, the consequences of his actions, and the harm that he could create. Thus, I have a hard time believing that he is genuinely concerned or in love with the girl. Subsequently, I wonder if marriage to this person would cause more benefits or more problems to the girl and the child in the future.
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posted
It seems I have a different conception of the boy/man and girl/woman distinction than most. I fully intend to avoid growing up -- that is, retain my "boy" or "young man" self-concept -- for as long as I possibly can. I don't see a conflict between being a responsible engineer in the workplace (and at home when I'm on call), being a responsible citizen (paying my taxes, casting considered votes), being a responsible planner (investing for my retirement, which I started to do five years ago; I'm financially independent and have no debt), and being irresponsible at heart. In essence, I want to retain the ability to do fun things on a whim.
Imogen, I'm more or less the same as you've described yourself, but I think of it differently. At work I'm an engineer (not a professional engineer, still need three years' experience for that). Of course, since I'm not married and live alone, my "home life" isn't exactly fraught with responsibility. As long as my monthly budget balances, I don't have much to worry about. While I can reconcile my grown-up work life with my non-grown-up real life, I think I'd have a much harder time of that if I had a family (particularly one or more children). But I presently have no interest in either of those things, so perhaps I'm safe for now.
quote:It seems I have a different conception of the boy/man and girl/woman distinction than most
To me it's a matter of accountability as I will explain below.
quote: In essence, I want to retain the ability to do fun things on a whim.
quote:I find the fact that you think adults can't do this sad.
It's true that you can still do fun things as an adult with responsibilities, but you have, to a certain degree, less freedom when it comes to acting on a whim. Suddenly you are accountable to more than just yourself. You can't just take off and leave for the week, or pick up and move to a new town without thinking about how your family might be affected. You can't quit your job and start touring with a band without thinking about the wellfare of your family. To me, being a boy is about the carefree, independent attitude that you can't afford to have as an adult with dependents and responsibilities.
Of course, being and adult/man includes its own joys and rewards that cannot be experienced by a boy. Becoming a man isn't something that comes with age, it's something that a person enters into once his mind and heart are ready.
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posted
No boy I know has the freedom to just pick up and leave either. They're under the rule of their parents.
I don't think it's a difference between boy and adult... It's more of a difference between freedom and finances vs. responsibility and being too darn poor.
posted
We don't know anything about the mental capacity of the 22-year-old or his life experience. I remember reading in Judith Levine's book Harmful to Minors that the majority of young adults who have sex with teens are extremely immature in comparison with people of their own age and are therefore better able to relate to someone much younger than they are. Assuming he's not a predator, then he's probably extremely immature. And if he is extremely immature, then they might well be equals, even if he can drive.
Of course, he might well be a predator, but we have nothing to base either conclusion on.
The mother presumably had more information and concluded that it was okay or at least preferable to her A) having an abortion or B) giving the baby up for adoption or C) raising the baby herself.
On the other subject, I'm twenty-five years old, and I'm sometimes amazed that the people around me don't seem to realize that I'm a kid who ought to be playing with beads in a kindergarten rather than doing filing, cashing checks, accepting payments, and so on. I'm simply appalled at the responsibilities I've been given, but it works out okay because it's like a game, and I'm good at it.
Posts: 1751 | Registered: Jun 1999
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quote: Suddenly you are accountable to more than just yourself. You can't just take off and leave for the week, or pick up and move to a new town without thinking about how your family might be affected.
*raises eyebrow*
So a single person with no dependants is automatically non-adult in your eyes?
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posted
I love being an adult. I love having not having to prove myself, which I think gives me the freedom to give other people room to be the star. I love that I can do any hobby I want, even the expensive ones, as long as I'm willing to sacrifice to pay for it. I love that there's nothing I have to wait until I'm older to know.
I like realizing that there is nothing I can't do given enough time, should the whimsy strike me. I can't do everything, but I can do anything. I love that I can choose my social circle, and that I can visit anyplace it is convenient and fun without worrying about making someone mad or dissapointed in me. I like all of those things, and they weren't true when I was still a kid.
Posts: 26077 | Registered: Mar 2000
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posted
When I was, oh 21 or so, I was asked to give a guest lecture for a community college class. It was an evening class, and the college was about 3 hours away from where I lived, so the regular instructor, a Catholic priest in his late 40s, invited me to spend the night at the rectory. We got back around 9 that night, and ordered pizza. I’ll never forget the tone of glee in his voice as he said, “The best thing about being an adult is you get to order pizza whenever you want!
I count that among the great bits of spiritual wisdom I have received.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:We don't know anything about the mental capacity of the 22-year-old or his life experience. . . . Assuming he's not a predator, then he's probably extremely immature. And if he is extremely immature, then they might well be equals, even if he can drive.
But is this really an improvement? While coercion may be somewhat less of an issue, I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with the notion of two thirteen year olds having sex together, either -- and I know that at least in California, sex between two underaged individuals can be prosecuted.
If he has the maturity of a thirteen year old, that only makes me feel even more strongly that neither of the two is emotionally prepared for marriage.
Posts: 650 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Well, yes, if he's emotionally immature then he shouldn't be married, but it's not all that uncommon for people to be immature for marriage. I strongly suspect that I'm too immature for marriage, and I know that my younger brother who just turned sixteen is too immature for marriage.
And yet my younger brother is married because my father and the girl's parents decided that that was the best thing under the circumstances. I disapprove, personally, but my father is there and perhaps has more information than I do.
Or maybe he's just living in a completely different century than I am.
I'm mostly just saying that we don't automatically know that this 22-year-old is an average, normal, healthy 22-year-old.
We have good reason to suspect that he's not the socially norm, seeing as how he's involved with a 13-year-old.
But that may not mean he's a predator. His age is not the only decisive thing about him, and yet it's just about all the we know.
I'm saying that the girl may in fact be his equal in some ways, that he may not seem as if he's 22 if you met him, and it may not be so unequal a pairing however unadvised it most likely is that they be involved. I'm saying that the girl is likely immature, but she may not be so much more immature than he is, and may in fact be quite decisive that this is what she wants.
I'm just trying to propose alternate scenarios to the whole man-taking-advantage-of-girl-child scenario.
I mean for all I know it may in fact be that classic scenario, but it may not be.
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quote: Suddenly you are accountable to more than just yourself. You can't just take off and leave for the week, or pick up and move to a new town without thinking about how your family might be affected.
*raises eyebrow*
So a single person with no dependants is automatically non-adult in your eyes?
It's more the attitude than any specific requirements.
Not having dependents doesn't mean that you are automatically not an adult, and I didn't meant to imply that either. But having a family might suddenly change your perspective on life. I only mentioned family as an example of certain responsibilities that might influence a person's attitude.
Of course, each person is different and has different priorities and desires in life. A person can be an adult for the rest of their life, but yet be a child at heart. And at the same time, a person can feel like an adult while being a child in mind.
I guess I was only trying to say that terms like boy or man can vary in meaning depending on individual perspective.
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posted
Because it's not the only scenario I can think of, so it seems one-sided for most of us to condemn him and the girl's parents as though it were established fact that he's a predator. Plus I remembered reading in more than one place (not just the above referenced book) that guys who get involved with younger girls tend to be immature themselves.
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