posted
Hello! Normally I wouldn't bring my personal problems out for a stroll but I'm in a bit of a bind. I'll try and keep it short.
First off, a bit of background: I was raised Catholic. I am a junior in high school. I have completed several years of "CCD" (Please don't ask me what it stands for- Sunday school at any rate.) and am now two years away from being confirmed. I am an agnostic slowly on her way to being an atheist. That's not to say I'm a bad person or have radical beliefs or anything, I just have a hard time accepting that there is a God.
Here's the first part of the problem: My father, very Catholic himself, isn't, needlesss to say, thrilled with my being an agnostic. He thinks it's his fault, which it's not, and wants to do all he can to remedy the situation.
And my current problem: He wants me to be confirmed. I'm not exactly sure what that all entails, but I do know that I'd have to say that I believe in God, etc., etc. Which, unfortunately, would be a lie.
I do not want to hurt my father. However, I don't want to lie just to keep him happy, especially if it's something he finds this important.
So do I lie and feel miserable and uncomfortable being confirmed just to keep my father happy? Or do I find someway to get out of it? And, if it's the latter, how should I go about doing so without endangering our relationship?
Posts: 1215 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
It seems to me that it would be far more disrespectful of your father and his beliefs to be confirmed and it be a sham than to decline to be confirmed.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
A tough one, to be sure. As a general rule, I think I would advise against lies on your religious beliefs in order to keep family happy. Sooner or later the truth will out.
Does there exist a compromise solution? In Norway there is something called a 'civil confirmation', dating to the time when confirmation was a rite of passage into adult life, required for, among other things, getting a job as a seaman. I don't know if they have it where you live, though, nor if your father would accept it.
Just how aware is your father of your disbelief? Have you stopped going to church, for example? If not, you may want to consider that a confirmation may not be the best time to make your Big Break. It's an important rite, as I understand it, and could easily become a symbol in both your minds, well suited to generating family feuds for the next twenty years. Big rituals are tension-laden enough anyway, without fighting over them. On the other hand, if he is already well aware of your agnosticism, and perchance sees this as a sort of 'last chance' to get you back into the fold, you may have to put your foot down. It's supposed to be a rite of passage into the adult world, after all; doing it only because your father wants you to is a bit of a contradiction.
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posted
In the Catholic Church, confirmation is the final step in the series of sacraments that includes Holy Communion, First Penance and Baptism--it essentially means that the confirmant is choosing the Catholic Church. In the past it was customary for people to be confirmed as children, but recently people prefere to delay confirmation until after the so-called age of reason.
The civil confirmation KoM's referring to is not administered by the Catholic Church; it's a state oriented designation that makes sense for people entering the work force. Middle ground is certainly preferable, but this sacrament is about choosing to practice Catholicism as an adult.
If it were me, I would not be confirmed, and I would do this to respect my father and myself.
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posted
No, you should not take part in a ceremony that would require you to lie about what you believe.
If your father tries to insist, you should talk to your priest, and tell him that you cannot with integrity make the statements required of you to be confirmed.
However, if you're still 2 years away from confirmation, why do you say this is your "current problem"?
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
I believe that I shouldn't, but can see no way of getting out of it. He knows I'm not a big believer, but still forces me to go to church, go to CCD, say prayers at dinner, etc. Me, I'm afraid of confrontation, afraid of what might happen if I do attempt to put my foot down.
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posted
Reflect. Pray. Give yourself time and decide whether or not you believe in your religion. This is what is entailed in respecting your father's beliefs.
After that, if you decide you do not believe, talk to him about it. Explain that you don't have that faith now, but that you will keep an open mind in the future. Make him aware that you take the issue seriously.
If you need help breaking the news, you might ask a church pastor what to do, or someone else who is knowledgable in these sorts of matters. I know when I was confirmed I spoke to the pastor of my church, where we discussed what confirmation meant and whether or not we believed. I think a good pastor knows how this sort of thing happens and will have some advice on how to handle it.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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posted
Until you are an adult there are some things that your father can make you do. Professing your faith, however, is not one of them. But again -- you have two years until the issue comes to a head. Is this really about not being confirmed, or is it about wanting to get out of going to CCD?
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posted
Have you talked to your priest about this? I would expect that he would advise both you and your father that to profess a belief that you do not actually hold would be a mockery of a sacred ceremony. (I also suspect he'd ask you to keep up with your studies and not shelve the faith question just yet.)
Wishing you all the best in this. This may sound crazy, but I would also suggest that you pray about it. "Agnostic on the way to being an atheist" suggests that you still allow some possibility for a God; send out a plea with an open heart and see if you get an answer.
And finally, religious differences can be a huge issue in families. However, in my experience, when children stand firm for their convictions and do everything in their power to nurture the relationship, most parents will not allow the issue to create a permanent rift.
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posted
How old are you? Be aware, in two years you will be much more adult, self-confident, and capable of standing up to your parents. You might want to postpone the confrontation a little, without giving up the intention to have one.
As for the confrontation itself, I suggest a little outflanking maneuver. You do not have to point-blank refuse. Instead tell him that he can certainly make you go through the ritual, but he cannot make you believe the words coming out your mouth. If he is at all honest with himself, that will set you free without becoming a struggle over parental authority.
I do not advise talking to a priest, except as a last resort the day before the ceremony. They are subtle and dangerous sorts, certainly far more skilled in debate than you, and they will try to, as they see it, save your soul from apostasy. Get some balance and self-confidence in your agnosticism before you confront one of these creatures on their own turf.
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quote:Is being confirmed something you can do later in life, or does it have to happen at a certain time?
Yes, it can later in life.
aiua, if you tell the priest you don't believe, he will most likely stop the confirmation until you convince him you believe again.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
I have to disagree with King of Men regarding talking with a priest. If you feel you are being manipulated, then by all means leave. However, most religious figures that I have experience with have been quite understanding.
I would sincerely doubt that you are the first person that has had this problem, and talking with them may prove helpfull. The worst that could happen is that you waste a half hour or so, which seems a small price for something that could potentially be helpfull.
posted
Many big churches have Youth Ministers, clergy assigned to help young people. They usually lead the youth services. If there is one you trust, talk to him. He could convince your father that to lie about your faith is a greater sin than to doubt your faith.
However I think your father is more interested in you going to the services, studies, and events the church will be organizing between now and your confirmation, especially those that get you ready for it. He may see that as a place you can find the answers to the questions you have.
There is a spectrum of belief, from blind faith to obstinate denial. Both ends of the spectrum are impossible to talk to, and fear the other. As long as you keep from falling into that Obstinate Denial section, and keep giving faith a chance, he should be hopeful.
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posted
And I was all set to comment on the sensitivity and thoughtfulness KoM had shown in his posts . . . never mind. Subtle and dangerous creatures indeed.
I would advise you against going through with it. I agree with those who say that a priest is likely to help you in this. But I have known priests of all kinds: some who were jerks and some who were trustworthy. Hopefully there is at least one you feel you can talk to and trust, and this is the one I would recommend approaching.
Posts: 289 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
You'll be 19 by the time you get to the point of confirmation, you'll making your own decisions by then, won't you? So there's no hurry to decide now, without having had the class. In the meantime if you start taking the confirmation class then you'll have more knowledge of the Catholic church to base your final decision on. That's what the classes are for.
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posted
Oh, 19? I missed the "junior in high school" part; most people I know who have been through Confirmation did it at age 16. That makes my answer easier.
When you are 19, you will absolutely have the right to move out and do what you want in regards to your religious observances. However, there is a way to do it that your parents may accept, and a way that will alienate them. If you feel that you do not believe and never will right now, perhaps you should go to the classes, but bring up your concerns with the teachers and the priests from the beginning (after class if you're uncomfortable doing it during.) Perhaps they will have some ideas for you. And be honest with your father about what you believe; if you are not honest, hurt feelings will result. However, don't make an issue of the small things, and try to say the things you have to say kindly, respectfully, and with love. It will make it easier in the long run, no matter how hard it is to keep that control right now. Trust me on that one.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Wow, we got confirmed in 5th or 6th grade which is at about 12ish. I think it's great that they waited so late to confirm you exactly because of your predicament. Don't actually go and get confirmed unless you feel you can say "I believe" and mean it.
I hope your father will be more understanding than you expect. My mother is *very* Catholic, moreso when my brother and I were little. I remember her commenting that she thought perhaps my brother shouldn't get confirmed yet because she wasn't sure he was ready. I think everyone has their own path of belief and hopefully your father will understand this as well.
So my next question is if you don't really *get* what you're saying you believe. Does a confirmation count?
Posts: 872 | Registered: Mar 2002
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posted
Well, I believe it occurs in our church sometime during our senior year or high school, so I will be either 16 or 17. Which means if they can force me to, can they not? "CCD" classes started in kindergarten and they're still going, though I have always believed them to be a waste of time.
Thanks, I'm really starting to lean towards telling him that I don't consider myself, nor should others, ready to be confirmed. And Sara, if I understood your question right, right now confirmation means nothing more to me than wasted time and lies. It would count for nothing more than to see that I could not/ would not stand up for my own beliefs.
Posts: 1215 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: Which means if they can force me to, can they not?
No, they cannot. The whole point of confirmation is that you’re claiming faith for yourself. It is your decision. The only way they can “force” you is if you decide you don’t want to deal with their disappointment (and possible anger) and choose to lie because it’s easier than saying no.
I know the social pressure can be intense, when confirmation is the “expected” thing. I have always told my confirmands that they needed to make the choice. If they were only there because of Mom & Dad or Grandma & Grandpa, then I would give them the option to be a part of the worship service, process in with their peers, but instead of being confirmed I would present them with a certificate of completion for the confirmation prep class. I don’t want anybody lying about their belief and making promises they don’t mean just because Grandma wants a picture of them in their white robe.
I repeat what others have said, when the time comes, if you do not believe, tell your priest. Unless he is a complete jerk (and unfortunately, those do exist) he will not let you be confirmed if you don’t believe. And he’ll probably be willing to talk to your father with you and explain why.
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don't get confirmed if you don't believe, but at the same time, since you are a minor living under your father's roof I think you should treat him with respect. I don't see the harm in continuing to go to classes at the church, because it may help you clarify your own beliefs. No one should at all be able to force you to profess belief in something you don't believe in, but again, out of respect for your father I would continue to attend church and classes.
Perhaps if you started thinking of them as something other than a waste of time, and looked at them as an opportunity to learn about your father's faith and examine your own personal questions and beliefs, you'd get much more out of them.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Look, if you haven't even started the class, then of course you aren't ready. You're jumping the gun here. Your real question is, do you want to take the confirmation class in order to search out whether you might recapture faith in the Church. If you do not wish to take the class, is that because you have already answered all your religious questions? If you have, and you know for a fact you can never belong to the Catholic church, then your real question is whether you want to stand up for your beliefs and tell your father no now. If that is not the case, if you are either not ready to stand up to your rather or you ar not sure about your beliefs and you still have questions, then take the class and see what happens. Nobody can force you to do confirmation at any age. That is your choice.
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posted
People here seem to be assuming that you want to "recapture" your faith; to me, this is somewhat on the order of assuming a recovering alcoholic wants to "recapture" her habit. Now, perhaps this is true of you, but only you can know. Can I suggest you give us some information on the extent of your deconversion? Would you be a member of the church if you could believe in it?
quote:Is this really about not being confirmed, or is it about wanting to get out of going to CCD?
Dkw, you do know that implying people's religious troubles are due to laziness is not very polite, yes?
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posted
Where did I say that wanting to get out of CCD implies laziness? There are other reasons not to want to go.
I'm still waiting to hear why a decision that doesn't have to be made for another two years is a "current problem."
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posted
KoM, it seemed like a valid question. Apparently you can't talk about priests/ministers without calling them devious and manipulative. Pot, meet kettle.
Posts: 1545 | Registered: May 2002
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posted
"Getting out of class" certainly implies laziness to me, yes, especially when prefaced with 'just'.
Another thing, though : What's with all the people telling a self-proclaimed agnostic to pray? Isn't that kind of equivalent to telling a theist that she should deliberately doubt her god for a few months, and see if that helps?
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posted
In KoM's defense, it has also been my experience that most ministers, confronted with a member of the flock who expresses disbelief, will attempt to manipulate that member back into a profession of belief. There are of course exceptions, but frankly I'm surprised that anyone would even dispute this; the promotion of the faith is, in many congregations, seen as one of the roles of a minister.
Whether or not being persuaded to remain a half-hearted Catholic is a good thing is entirely up to the reader to decide.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote: the promotion of the faith is, in many congregations, seen as one of the roles of a minister.
Of course it is! Which is why I asked the question about the real issue. If this is about not going to church and CCD, it’s very doubtful the priest will be supportive. If it’s about pressure by her father to go through with Confirmation when she doesn’t believe, the priest will likely be an ally. From his perspective, she’s not ready yet and should continue to prepare until she is, but he doesn’t want her to lie about her belief any more than she wants to do so.
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posted
To promote a faith is one thing; to manipulate someone into a faith is something different. A good minister probably knows that manipulating someone into accepting Confirmation is not a good way of promoting the faith.
Posts: 8120 | Registered: Jul 2000
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I'm sorry you've been put in this position and hope it all ends up working out. I've been in a similar position before (also used to be Catholic) and I think the best thing you can do is put your foot down. Your father will be hurt no matter what, whether you decide now or after you go through the confirmation. This is about your faith and your beliefs, not about what your father believes in.
Get the hurt out of the way now, it's horrible and it's not going to be fun, but you'll have to do it eventually. Better to do it now before your father has time to convince himself further that it was his fault and that it's his duty to make you a believer again.
Posts: 459 | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
I was in a similiar predicament as yours. My mom insisted that even the pope questions his faith, even though I was pretty dang sure my unbelief wasn't questions as I felt that way for five years prior. My mom got me to go through with it because my (at the time 84 year old) Grandmother would have been upset if she found out that I wouldn't be confirmed because I didn't believe in God. She's the loving little old lady type of Grandma who happens to live down the street and has had a rough and loss ridden life in general. It would have been a slap in the face to do that.
So what about lying? I don't like to lie myself. As an atheist/agnostic, I had decided that God didn't exist when I was ten. The belief came out of the idea that people had made God as one way to explain the world, and later grew into the idea that people wanted God as a means to believe that someone else could see and understand what they, alone in their heads, were doing, and suffering. Philosophically, understanding the purpose of life and the realities of existance and consciousness, who knows whether there is a higher power. Who knows if every other human on the planet, including me, writing this, is just a figment of your imagination. Maybe we will all find out when we die. St. Peter might send me down, or there could just be nothing. I have no idea. Nobody knows so no one is correct, but no one is wrong either. I, personally, think God isn't real. But to undermine the beliefs of someone who holds Him dear, by telling them that, is perhaps just as wrong in my eyes. I hate confrontations.
I was also worried about the renewal of the Baptismal vows that happens in Confirmation. But it turned out to be not so bad. It's just like they do at any other Mass where the vows are renewed. Everyone says them together, so you're still lying, but in that low muttering that Catholics do so well. When you go up you pretty much state your name, raise your hand and the bishop places oil on your head like with the ashes. Except it's greasy. Besides, answer these: When you're stuck going to Mass, do you still take Communion? Do you say the Nicine Creed? The Our Father? Do you sing? Do you reply along with anything the priest says, stand an kneel at the right times? Confirmation turned out to be little more than doing that.
Seeing as my church made us sign in at every Mass during the CCD (Confraternity of Christian Doctrine btw. I prefer Catholic Child's Dungeon- especailly because the place I had to go was subterranean) school year, I've gone to Mass a lot less now that Confirmation is finished. I didn't do a poll of how many kids making their confirmation believe in God, and whether any indeed to keep going to church regularly, and how many are being In general, my family doesn't go to Mass much anyway. More than the xmas/easter people, though. I even went to a ceremony at my school when the Pope died. Even though it hasn't mattered at all, I can take part in weddings and baptisms. Basically it happened, people gave me money for it, my Grandma was happy (still wonders why I don't attend church in college though), and life went on (without CCD though).
Should I have done it over and stood up for what I don't believe in? I don't know. It worked out fine the way I did it. The Catholic Church has pushed past its age of Confirmation in order to make the sacrament seem like it is an adult choice. Yet as long as its recipients still live under their Catholic parents' roofs, there will always be some who do not choose to make it. For me, not fighting was simpler. There were enough belligerent jerks in my CCD class without the resident atheist whining. So I didn't.
Yet a Jewish/atheist friend of mine refused a Bat Mitzvah for religous reasons/ and because she felt the ritual was a party contest at 13. Her parents weren't happy, but it happens.
You need to do what's right for you. I don't have the heart to tell my Grandmother than I'm an atheist, but it seems your father already knows. The conflict will just come up again when your dad wants to know why his Grandkids aren't being baptised. If you do choose to go through with it, do make it clear that your are doing this for your dad and not for yourself. He can't make you do it for you.
I've rambled on, but good luck.
Posts: 1757 | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
dkw, though I have never enjoyed going to CCD due to lousy teachers and uninterested kids, I saw no harm in it, up to a point. But now that CCD's really starting to become serious, not just a get-together-which-happened-to-mention-religion-once-in-a-while, I don't want to wait till the last second and then say, "Well, I wasn't actually going to go through with it.." It's kind of like..have you ever gone shopping for something but it wasn't out on the floor, so somebody went to go fetch it and then it turns out you really don't like it? I feel really bad about someone going through the effort of preparing me for something I'm not going to do. Which is the main reson for not wanting to continue CCD much longer, though I doubt anyone could pull that out from what I just said. ^-^; However, I have the sneaking suspicion that he will continue to make attend CCD, which I do believe I shall make no fuss about, provided everyone's aware of my intentions. My intentions being that I won't pretend to be ready for or even okay with being confirmed, let alone a be believer.
[Edit] But now after reading theamazeeaz's ideas, I'm not as sure about not being confirmed as I was five minutes ago. Should it boil down to the pros and cons? Do I know how much it really means to my father? Do Iknow how much this would really affect me? How long can I keep dodging these questions? Either way I'll have to talk to him.
Contradicting as this may sound, I do feel bad about not being able to believe or feel a part of the church, yet I'm not feeling guilty/sad/embarrassed/something enough to make an effort to fix that.
And a very heartfelt thank you to everyone who's commented on this, you've helped more than you'll ever know.
posted
I don't want to offend you aiua, but I hope you will keep an open mind while you're in CCD because honestly, I am glad that I haven't been held to all the proclamations about faith and life that I made at your age.
I still urge you not to be confirmed if you don't believe it, but I hope you will use the CCD classes as a chance to learn and grow. Even if you don't agree with what's being taught, it's a chance to learn about the faith of your family and friends and I believe that education is not ever a bad thing. For example, I've learned a ton about LDS beliefs from this site and from my friends I've met and while I'll never convert to LDS I still see value in what I've learned.
Again, at risk of sounding condescending, you are very young. You may change and see things completely differently as you grow and experience life more. Keep an open mind, learn, and you may well look back in a few years (or 10 or 20 years) and see those CCD classes as having immense value.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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quote: But now that CCD's really starting to become serious, not just a get-together-which-happened-to-mention-religion-once-in-a-while, I don't want to wait till the last second and then say, "Well, I wasn't actually going to go through with it.."
If you are up front now with the priest/teachers, you can do it with a clear conscience. I think it's a good idea to take the classes so your father will be assured you're making a fully informed decision, but I agree it would be very wrong to go through the rite if you don't believe.
Posts: 2711 | Registered: Mar 2004
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I can't answer yes or no, nor am I a good example of successful completion of confirmation prep classes I honestly remember only one thing about them -- the nun was obsessed with making sure we made a nice even line and didn't rock back & forth when we walked as a group down the center aisle.
I am glad you get the opportunity to do make this decision when you are older. I, for one, was not ready when I was confirmed, and was confirmed anyway. IMHO, everyone in that group with maybe 1 exception in 20 was too young to even know or appreciate the event.
If I may, however, here are some things you might ask yourself:
1) Can the confrontation be reasonably delayed, and if so, for how long? That is...do you have to state your opinion NOW? What is truly at stake today?
2) Are you willing to continue the classes, and if so, under what circumstances? For example, is it okay with you to attend classes without having the priest/instructor know of your feelings? Or, are you so uncomfortable with that idea that you would not go to class unless it was understood that you are not yet ready to commit, and may not be ready when the rest of class is confirmed?
3) How important is it that your father support your religious decisions? I ask this with some trepidation because I truly believe that you should care first and foremost about your relationship with God and only secondarily about whether it meets your father's standards. However, you are still young enough, and are his child so there's a dynamic there that is in need of some exploration. By you first, and maybe by him sooner or later.
4) Do you have experience and are you comfortable with discussing important life issues with your father? Really, seriously, is this the first time you'll be trying to approach him as one human to another? Or do you have a track record behind you of frank discussions of other difficult topics?
5) How sure are you? Not how unsure of your belief, but how certain are you of your unreadiness? It may sound like a strange way to approach the issue, but here's the question that popped into my mind when reading all the posts: - If your CCD classes are just now getting serious, how do you know what this particular faith entails. Do you have a vague disbelief in God, or a specific one? Are you saying you aren't sure you believe or that you just plain don't believe at all?
It is worth noting that the Confirmation is not just a voluntary act, but it one in which you also pledge some allegiance to a particular church and even a particular community within that church. It is traditionally a passage into adulthood too -- an acknowledgement that you are ready to be an adult in the church and take on adult responsibilities. In THAT church. And the membership in turn says they're ready to accept you in that light.
Well...we all nod and wink at that when 14 year olds get confirmed. It's really understood to mean "we expect a bit more from you and we'll give you more responsibility too" but no-one expects fully independent action from them at that age....right?
You're in a different situation. You could/would be considered a fully adult member in the church. Your next important act would be going away to college or going out and getting a job and supporting yourself (or both). So, yeah, you're going to be inducted as an adult in the church. What does that mean? Do you want it? Would you do the things you understand to be important for a person who is a member of such a community?
I think it's great that you are taking this seriously. I'm also impressed that you would find the nerve to not go forward if you aren't ready. And I'm equally impressed that part of your decision includes the feelings of your loved ones.
It's all important.
Be true to yourself and be truthful in your pledges. If you are ready, then do it. If you aren't ready, then do not pretend to be. That's my advice. But go forward as an adult. You should think it through, consider from all angles. Decide who you can consult with face to face. And don't shirk your responsibility to be truthful and sincere with your father or your priest.
I hope your search is less painful than mine has been. But I also hope it is as rewarding and interesting, no matter what you decide.
posted
On the subject of learning and growing, I suggest you take the time freed up by not going to CCD, if you can get out of it, and instead learn a programming language; teach yourself to cook; exercise; study mathematics; read science fiction; write a blog; write a novel; read 'The Selfish Gene' or 'The Elegant Universe' or 'Lucifer's Legacy' or any of a dozen others; design a game, and play it; talk with your father about why he believes, or about why you don't; throw a frisbee in the park; get a tortoise and learn to care for it; take up fencing; or just sit about and think Deep Thoughts. There are so many things better suited to learning than the dusty old theology of a goat-herding religion! Don't let your mind be trapped in channels dug deep by a thousand years of repetition. Let it run free.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:learn a programming language; teach yourself to cook; exercise; study mathematics; read science fiction; write a blog; write a novel; read 'The Selfish Gene' or 'The Elegant Universe' or 'Lucifer's Legacy' or any of a dozen others; design a game, and play it; talk with your father about why he believes, or about why you don't; throw a frisbee in the park; get a tortoise and learn to care for it; take up fencing; or just sit about and think Deep Thoughts.
Somehow, despite my religious beliefs, I've managed to spend considerable time doing all of those things, except for "Lucifer's Legacy" and talking about why I don't believe (although, of course, I've talked about why I do believe). Oh, and the tortoise was actually a hermit crab.
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posted
Probably a lot less, actually. But you don't believe that, so there's no point in discussing it.
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posted
Indeed, short of CCD somehow occurring outside the usual boundaries of space-time, I do not see how subtracting X hours from a day of 24 is going to let you get more done in that day.
Posts: 10645 | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:I do not see how subtracting X hours from a day of 24 is going to let you get more done in that day.
Sure you do. For example, I learned to develop Office macros. Took me a couple of weeks over several months. But I've saved all that time and much more since then.
I understand you don't apply those standards to CCD, and I'm not interested in arguing about them with you, but the basic concept is surely one you agree with: time spent increasing efficiency can result in allowing a person to do more overall.
Posts: 26071 | Registered: Oct 2003
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From what I can tell you are still very young, not that you are child mind you but I rememeber when I was about 15-19 that was when I was questioning God's existance. I questioned even if there was a God does he care to really guide my life, or is he even able.
KOM's comments are certainly valuable advice if you are so certain that there is no God and you would like to persue that path without question. I personally disagree with it.
I would suggest that you consider that although the catholic church has failed to show you any proof of God, that you still consider researching other religions both big and small.
If you make a thorough search and come up with nothing you may want to consider the idea that there is no God, or at least if there is one he has not seen fit to reveal himself to you.
I imagine that changing your religion should you ultimately find God (I hope you do) would be more or less the same as declaring yourself atheist to your father, but perhaps not QUITE as difficult.
KOM: If one begins to disbelieve that there is a God advising them to pray more ernestly in of itself certainly sounds like telling a person who believes to start doubting God. But I would say if you begin to disbelieve God's existance you ought to be honest enough with yourself and God to say whether you really have been doing what he allegedly wants. Providing a place to meet once a week, and telling us to build a crutch, isnt the extent of what religion is/does. I would hope that that you could be impartial enough to at least accept that maybe in all the religions you have come across there may be one out there that has it figured out better than the rest. And even though you see nothing within religion that you need much less desire, perhaps there is one out there with things you need but didnt realize you needed them.
Posts: 14316 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Reading this thread, it occurred to me: If dkw had been my pastor, I might very well still be religious. That's not to say I could go back at this point or that I think going back, in itself, would be a good thing for me. But I strongly suspect if Christianity is going to survive the cultural changes of the next hundred years it's going to be because of people like dkw.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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quote:Originally posted by KarlEd: Reading this thread, it occurred to me: If dkw had been my pastor, I might very well still be religious. That's not to say I could go back at this point or that I think going back, in itself, would be a good thing for me. But I strongly suspect if Christianity is going to survive the cultural changes of the next hundred years it's going to be because of people like dkw.
Exactly.
(Not to put the fate of the world on Dana's shoulders or anything. It's just, well, you're right, KarlEd. And when you are right, you are Right.)
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