posted
In a previous thread people complained or applauded the Star Trek TNG episode Darmok. In that episode the Star Trek crew ran into a strange race that talked in metaphors. "Darmok and Jihlad at Tanagra" "Shaka when the walls fell" etc.
I don't want to get into the practicality of such a language.
I want us to make one.
Basically, the challenge is to take a common bit of communication and relay it as a metaphor.
example: Hello and welcome would be, "Patton at Bastogne"
Can you play the Darmok game, or does all of this leave you "Gilligan on the Isle". Create the metaphor. See if you will be "The Red Sox of 2004" or "Brown in the wake of Katrina".
I'll add some more later, or "McArthur leaving the Phillipines".
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
Hmmm, I read Kwea's metaphor as meaning "a big mistake". I guess that underscores a major drawback of a metaphorical language. It's really hard to come up with a multitude of metaphors that are widely recognizeable and mean the same things to a wide variety of people.
Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
So why don't we define them after we give them so we can build a language.
quote: "Patton at Bastogne"
"Ophelia to Hamlet in the hall, before her death"? "James Brown on stage".
"Cleopatra to Julius Ceasar near the Library of Alexandria"?
ie Stormship Troopers by Heinlien, "Sharon's Policy in Gaza"
ie Ender's Game by Card, "Lindbergh crossing the Altantic"
ie The Da Vinci Code, "The Professor on Gilligan's Island"
"Disneyworld Uncrowded".
"M*A*S*H on TV"
Dan Raven
TRANSLATION
quote: Hello,
How are you? I feel good.
Have you read any good books lately? (Cleopatra gave Julius Ceasar thousands of books from the Library of Alexandria as part of her seduction/bribe)
I've read Stormship Troopers by Heinlien. People either love it or hate it.
I've read Enders Game by OSC. It is a great literary achievement.
I've read The Davinci Code by Dan Brown. I know there was a pretence of science and fact there somewhere, but it got lost in the contrived plot and pure fantasy.
quote:So why don't we define them after we give them so we can build a language.
I'm not sure that's possible. You can "define" what a metaphor means in your language, but since it's a metaphor, it will mean different things to different people. Unless you force it to mean one thing, in which case it ceases to be a metaphor, and you are just creating new vocabulary words that are many times longer than the words we have now.
Ender, playing the game.
Posts: 16551 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I don't see how such a language could ever result in true communication. Specifics could rarely be communicated, certainly not efficiently. Instead of using a single vocabulary word, you have to have a whole phrase for every concept. It is laughable that such a race could acheive the technology to build starships.
Bobit, when his wife was pissed.
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Of course, the argument could be made that all language is really metaphor. Words like "love" mean something different to each person that says and hears it.
Alvin Sr., sending his son out to apprentice.
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I don't see this language as particularly practical either, but it was still a fun episode and by the end of it you know what a few of their metaphores mean.
I think if I had to speak such a language every day it would make me "Dean, his primary speech."
quote:Of course, the argument could be made that all language is really metaphor. Words like "love" mean something different to each person that says and hears it.
Well, you have picked one of the most un-definable words in the language and from that extrapolated "all language is really metaphor". I don't buy it.
quote:met·a·phor ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fôr, -fr) n. 1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage” (Shakespeare). 2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: “Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven” (Neal Gabler).
When we say "car" as in, "I bought a car this weekend", it isn't metaphor at all in the first sense cited above, and is in the second sense only insofar as it is a word at all. If you're using the second sense, there is very little difference between the sentences: "All language is metaphor" and "All language is composed of words."
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quote:Well, you have picked one of the most un-definable words in the language and from that extrapolated "all language is really metaphor". I don't buy it.
Well, I did say that "the argument could be made". I didn't say I was making it.
I think that most language falls somewhere in the middle between precise technical language where each word has a specific, precise meaning and talking about love, a word that has so many meanings it is essentiall meaningless.
So while I don't think that what I said is absolutely true, I think there is truth to it, especially when talking about abstract concepts such as justice, truth, honor, good, evil, life, death, love, community, fairness, tolerance, progress, slavery, abuse, compassion, hope, worship, respect, etc..
Bobbit, falling asleep unsuspecting. Bobbit, seaching frantically in the field. Bottit, refusing to divorce afterward.
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(trying to have it both ways. One group likes the fact you tried it, the other - if they buy it - likes that you didn't really "try" it.)
Posts: 4344 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
I think this is Frodo setting out on his journey and that it is unlikely Lance Armstrong in the Tour de France without ice skating judges at the Olympics (World. War. Two).
Having said that, although two missiles turning into a sperm whale and a bowl of petunias, it's not taking ponies to the South Pole (Chamberlain bargaining with Hitler) or Zephram Cochrane's ship in the real world. It's actually uncrowded Disneyland. At least the first part of Decarte's famous phrase.
New faces and places to Kaylee!
EDIT: You can all work this out for yourselves.
Posts: 8473 | Registered: Apr 2003
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posted
I think that the issue with this kind of speech is two things:
One, it becomes excessively long and convoluted. Instead of one word, we have to say several. In a real world situation these would get whittled down to mean a single word. Instead of Romeo and Juliet on the balcony, we might say "Romeo". "Romeo" would therefore become our word for love. So the language would shrink down anyway.
The other way of dealing with such a language would be to have so many metaphors that you can describe an entire action, such as "going to the shop and buying some milk and eggs" in the same amount or fewer words ("Little old lady or Saturdays"). Such a language would have to have billions of metaphors in order to exist properly.
It's fun though, thinking up other ways of expressing yourself rather than using straight forward words! They should do this in English classes to get people to think about what they mean and how to say it in the most effective way possible.
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posted
The problem with this language is that to say the metaphors, you have nouns, verbs, prepositions and so forth. It may be that they passed through the linguistic phase at which we are and moved on to a language composed entirely of movie quotes. I feel like I've entered that zone sometimes.
A more productive exercise is how you define the phrase "5 is right out."
posted
Jarts (Lawn-Darts) in the circle. Data talking about humor. Jarts (Lawn Darts) in the eye.
(I tried to make a fun game. You folks take it much to seriously. Now it is to dangerous to play anymore.)
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posted
The more I hear the news, the more I feel we are Adam, donning a fig leaf. I hope we can one day become Joshua, when the walls fell.
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posted
One thing I like about this is that some of the phrases hold a depth of meaning, a spectrum of innuendo and tone that could not be so easilly described by just a noun, verb, and adjective.
There is a difference of degree in these three:
"The poor in the land of plenty." "The poor in New Orleans" "The poor in New Orleans in the wake of Katrina."
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