posted
I have been struck by a story idea, or a setting actually.
There is a small sub-segment of the religious right that argues the the US is based on Christian beliefs, and will only come to its proper place when the government becomes a Christian government.
What would living in such a country be like?
A few years ago, before I got to know so many good conservatives and Christians, I would have created a story filled with pogroms and crusades, witch burnings and forced baptisms. Now I know that would not be the case.
In the world I am writing about the Constitutional literalists have gotten there way, and their is no seperation of church and state other than their being no official State Religion. Christianity, however, is a wide combination of religions, similar yet unique. As such the government can and does support official Christians. They get tax breaks and a higher minimum wage so they can offer the socially needed charity that Christians are known for. Their votes are worth 1.5 Non-Christian votes. In court, their testimony is worth two NC testimonials. Certain positions, such as Judges, may only be held by Christians.
They have passed laws not only illegalizing abortion, but making contraceptives more difficult to get. They require mandatory DNA testing of the children of all unwed mothers to insure their fathers are found and do their duty. Divorce is more difficult, except in cases of religious differences, but most importantly, children are much better protected on all levels.
The Pledge of Allegiance is mandatory at all public functions, but it has evolved a bit:
quote: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic and Cross for which it stands, one nation under God, in Jesus's name, with liberty and justice for Christian and Non-Christian, alike.”
I can't stick around to add to this, but I would like to know what some of you would imagine seeing in such a Christian America.
Posts: 11895 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
What about alcohol? Will there be blue laws in effect, will there be dry counties, or will there be a return of prohibition? Keep in mind not every Christian, not even every protestant, has a problem with alcohol so there won't be total agreement there. In fact, there are few things there will be total agreement on - even "conservative Christian" is an umbrella for a bunch of different sets of beliefs.
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posted
There was a Heinlein story about a Christianized future U.S.A. (I cannot remember the name of it), and Octavia Butler's Parable of the Sower and Parable of the Taltents deal with a future U.S. that has gone downhill and then had Christian loonies take over the government.
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posted
Lots of people move to Canada, while mexicans continue to stream into the country.
Decency laws gain some teeth, including jail time and very hefty fines. Bravo goes off the air. Substantial amounts of federal money goes into internet regulation, but despite the investment, pornography continues to be the most successful internet industry in the world. All of the money now goes to other countries, though.
Prayer becomes mandatory in school, as do uniforms. While there is no state religion, students are required to take at least one class in Christian Values.
Suicide rates go up. Teen pregnancy rates go down.
Ultimately, while church attendance grows, the actual number of people who accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior goes down, though they claim otherwise if asked.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Well, just look at US History to see how a Christian country would work. The first 100 years at least are just that. If not all the way through the 1950s. School prayer, mandatory pledge of allegiance, period of time without alcohol, blue laws are even still around. It is still illegal in most counties in my state to have an auto dealership open on Sundays. Basically Jews have to go to Virigina, or one of the 2 counties this is not the case to by a car on a weekend.
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posted
"Public Decency" laws regulating how much flesh can be shown in public get much mnore stringent. Stranger rapes go down, but date/marriage rapes go up.
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posted
Probably a moderate "brain drain" as well off non-Christians (and probably a lot of progressive Christians) move to other countries. (Poor non-Christians would be stuck here) Non-Christians would flock to "liberal" churches for membership in order to get benifits of Christian status. Instead of Christianity being a profound meaningful relatoinship, it evaporates into meaningless sayings that are repeated mechanically.
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quote: They get tax breaks and a higher minimum wage so they can offer the socially needed charity that Christians are known for. Their votes are worth 1.5 Non-Christian votes. In court, their testimony is worth two NC testimonials. Certain positions, such as Judges, may only be held by Christians.
Dan, I think you're lumping Christians in with some folks who just use us for the votes...
Tax breaks ... Jesus, when asked of taxes, took a coin and asked who's picture was on the coin. When they answered that it was Caesar's face, he explained that they should render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. A Christian government would probably work toward a more fair taxation with fewer loopholes and exemptions, if you go by that.
Higher minimum wage for Christians? Once again, I don't think so. An equitable and more feasible for the worker minimum wage would be most likely, if those in power followed Christian teachings. Bind not the mouth of the oxen that turns the mill and all that.
1.5 votes per Christian? Not sure if most Christians would be comfortable putting themselves higher than others. Meek inheriting the earth, the least shall come first and the first shall come last. (Remember there was a Christian minister who led the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s.)
Testimony being more valid? Probably not, but the oath taken before giving testimony would certainly be held more strictly.
Judgeships... not too sure on that one either. Judge not lest you be judge and he without sin cast the first stone. I figure that judgeships might be more elected than appointed, but the requirements would be pretty similar to today.
That said, in a democratic society like we have, it's pretty easy for someone to label themselves as Christian or align themselves to a belief when they mainly just want to make political hay of it. I think we can see plenty of examples of that today.
Posts: 2848 | Registered: Feb 2003
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quote: 1.5 votes per Christian? Not sure if most Christians would be comfortable putting themselves higher than others.
I think you can make the argument that any society which would mandate Christianity has already abandoned Christian principle.
Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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quote:1.5 votes per Christian? Not sure if most Christians would be comfortable putting themselves higher than others.
Obviously you know different Christians than I do.
quote:Judge not lest you be judge and he without sin cast the first stone.
Riiigght... of course it would not be fair to judge the Christians who judge others, as I myself judge.
Posts: 1364 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
Wow, The things you are describing sound nothing like Christianity to me, unfortunately it does seem a lot like religion to me, if that makes any since.
I don't believe you could have a truly Christian government because you can't legislate morality. Even if you institute a bunch of Christian based laws, at best you only end up with behavior modification. It doesn’t make any one a Christian because they are forced to act like one.
But if you want to see how the government you are describing would look; look back to the Roman Catholic Empire. Of course that’s not a true analogy because you can’t suddenly make most of the population illiterate.
You could look at some of the countries run by Muslim governments, they wouldn't be that different from what you are looking for.
If you want to see how a true Christian government would look; look at this passage from the book of Acts describing the early Church:
quote: Acts 4: 32-34 32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.
I’ll give this some more thought. If I come up with anything I’ll get back to you
Posts: 555 | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
I don't think stranger rapes would go down.
And I don't think teen pregnancy rates would go down, either. In fact, they might go up, since talking openly about sex would become increasingly taboo.
quote:Originally posted by dkw: Sounds like The Handmaid's Tale to me.
This is the third reference to THT I've seen today... the other two were to teh story in this thread .
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posted
In all seriousness you could probably predict a good many of the effects such a change would make just by looking at what Utah was like 50 years ago.
Here are a few-
plenty of hypocritical Christians- folks who just play the part in order to boost business etc.
A hyper-bitter opposition group consisting of black helicopter crazies and disaffected former Christians
Slightly stronger laws against vice- things like an increase in the legal drinking age, and so on.
Other than a few things like that, the standard local culture would still prevail, irrespective of putative values the religion espouses.
Posts: 4548 | Registered: May 2001
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posted
I don't know if 50 years is far enough back to look in Utah history. However, for a look at what the experience of an "outsider" (non-Mormon) would be, see Recapitulation by Wallace Stegner (and, to a lesser extent, Big Rock Candy Mountain by the same author). Stegner grew up in Salt Lake City in the 1920's.
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posted
pH, I based the theory that teen pregnancy would go down on resumption of social pressure not to have sex prior to marriage or have a baby out of wedlock. There is a small percentage of teens who *choose* to get pregnant. I don't think they would make that choice with a Christian ruled society. Teens didn't have babies as readily in the 50s as they do now, even with freely available abortions.
But I'm just as glad not to know whether this is true, as I would not like to live in a country ruled by an expressly "Christian" government as Dan has defined.
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posted
Given the average age at childbirth has gone up significantly (around 24 or 25 now, I think), and was barely above 20 in the 1950s, I'd say teens nowadays are far less likely to choose to have children.
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posted
I think her point was related to unmarried teens. In the fifties women married much earlier too. The comparison only works if you look at unwed teen births alone.
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posted
I suspect you would see a totally unrelated rise in quick marriages and surprisingly healthy 7-month babies.
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posted
As a Christian, it pains me to say this, but Christianity has always fared better under persecution. Whenever it has gained a position of absolute or near-absolute power (the Roman Catholic church in the middle ages) it has become the exact opposite of itself.
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posted
I was expecting someone to say, "Once that happens the Second Coming would be well on its way." Thanks for all of the opinions. I will keep them in mind.
The Christian voting and judgeships is important to the story as it keeps the Christians in power even as they continually more narrowly focus what their definition of what Christian is.
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posted
There are also members of the GCC, a non-political group of churches that have lost their "True Christian Church" standing, but still promote Christian values. These would include LDS, Jehova's Witnesses, and for National Security reasons, Catholics (you can't share power with a group who take orders from a foreigner). They face a tough choice of living a second class life or opposing the Christian order and losing all the good things it has done.
Which brings me to the next question, what other church would find itself ultimately cut out of the majority Christian family because of some minor article of faith?
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posted
I think it's quite sad when you see politicians and atheists accusing the church of meddling in state affairs. Priests and other religious who meddle in state affairs is actually against what Christ preached. It was no other than Jesus who wanted seperation between church and state.
This is quite apparent when the Pharisees send their disciples to Jesus to try and trick Him. They ask "Is it lawful to give a poll-tax to Caesar, or not?". And Christ replies "Render to Caesar what is Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's"
Saying this, I personally don't agree that truth is determined by a majority vote. There is a natural order that must be obeyed. You sometimes hear "You only don't agree with that because you're a Christian" which is quite pathetic. It doesn't matter if you're Christian or not, killing is wrong if you're Christian or not, stealing is wrong whether you're Christian or not. I could go on and on but I know you could think of a hundred examples as well. That's my personal thought, you're welcome to argue or contradict it if you wish.
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quote:Originally posted by Dan_raven: Which brings me to the next question, what other church would find itself ultimately cut out of the majority Christian family because of some minor article of faith?
Quakers without a doubt, probably the UCC. I actually think the majority Christian family would become a powerful minority as it cut more and more groups out.
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posted
You'd get a mass exodus of Jews, most likely to Israel, doing strange things to the power balance there. The Islamic countries would, assuming a resurgence in U.S. isolationism, try to aggressively expand their territories, most likely into Africa and parts of Asia (where they'd probably get into some major scuffles with India and China who'd be expanding themselves).
I'd imagine you'd have a major economic recession (which would spill over into the rest of the world) as the large majority of technical people who make up our information economy move elsewhere and the nation's educational systems become, in content and effectiveness, similar to those of Kansas. Also immigration from Catholic countries would dry up. However, the nation as a whole or at least the different sections would wheather the economic crisis better than most other countries as they would move towards socialization of the vast and largely intact food production industry.
Nonetheless, the depression and consequent nose dive in standard of living would turn things ugly pretty quickly. There'd be witch hunts, seeking out the new marranos, who only pretend to be Christian. Also, the various sects would break apart and likely congregate in different regions of the country, where their own particular brand of Christianity would receive local state sponsorship. The more powerful sects would get the coasts and prime agricultural land. Driven by the tenions, new, apocolyptic cults would spring up and be accepted in suprisingly large numbers.
Canada would likely pick up a large share of our science guys and would have significant nuclear weapons capabilities within 5 years and would form strong bonds with a newly militarized Japan and possibly Australia. The central countries of the EU would bond together both through the external threat posed by the expanding Islamic world and through economic necessity.
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posted
It depends on the faction that took over. You'd have a very different United States under the evangelicals than you would under the Roman Catholics, than you would under the Unitarians.
Presuming a fairly conservative-fundamentalist faction of Christianity is a dominant strain, you would presume certain things:
Creationism or "Intelligent Design" is now taught in schools. Evolution is at best a footnote.
Tithing is built into the tax system.
There might be mandated prayer periods; failing to pray before a meal might be a misdemeanor.
Churches are more common and more "in-your-face"; you might see them more commonly as part of commercial structures, and religious advertising is something you regularly see on bilboards and television.
Motion pictures and books are rigorously censored. News media is scrutinized for anti-religious bias.
Non-believers are somehow corralled or ghettoized to prevent the spread of heretical beliefs; you may need special permission to travel amidst the believers if you are unwilling to convert, and even the late-converted might be viewed with suspicion.
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posted
The major denominations would all split, with about a third favoring the new way of doing things, about a third strongly opposed, and the middle third not really caring but probably going along with things so as not to make waves.
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quote: Saying this, I personally don't agree that truth is determined by a majority vote. There is a natural order that must be obeyed. You sometimes hear "You only don't agree with that because you're a Christian" which is quite pathetic. It doesn't matter if you're Christian or not, killing is wrong if you're Christian or not, stealing is wrong whether you're Christian or not. I could go on and on but I know you could think of a hundred examples as well. That's my personal thought, you're welcome to argue or contradict it if you wish.
I think most people who say "you only believe that because you're a Christian" do so about things like taking the Lord's name in vain or opposing homosexual marriage, not murder. Posts: 37449 | Registered: May 1999
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n : (medieval Spain) a Jew or Moor who converted to Christianity (especially those who professed conversion in order to avoid persecution but continued to practice their religion secretly)
Hey, I learned a new word today. Thanks Mr. Squicky!! Posts: 6394 | Registered: Dec 1999
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posted
Paul, when you see certain religious telling people how to vote, this is against what the Catholic Church teaches. I cannot claim the same things for other Christian denominations because I'm not that familiar with them.
Priests and Bishops are actually not allowed to go into politics. This means they are unable to become politicians, they cannot tell people how to vote out right, although this was quite different in the past.
When you say that religious have been meddling in state affairs, they are in fact meddling in matters that are associated with God. The church does not concern herself in things such as tax fluctuations, health care, and education, unless these go against what they believe will ultimately lead into a negative direction.
An example of when the Church would have to take a stand in state affairs would be if the taxes were wrongly taking advantage of a minority or the poor. In education, if they're teaching something contrary to the beliefs of the church, and in health care, anything that is against pro-life such as abortion and euthanasia.
In the passage I used, Jesus say's render to Caesar what is Caesar's; and to God what is God's. God has no interest in the material and the secular world, thus, we pay our taxes and obey the laws. But in terms of God, we must realize that humanity belongs to God (unless you believe there is no God in which case there is no point arguing this any longer).
Priest are not allowed to tell people how to vote. If something is taking place that is against what the Church teaches, i.e war, abortion, etc etc, the people, the public, the lay-people are called to act, not the priests.
The Vatican does not have an army, the Pope is not a presidential figure concerned in secular and material concerns. In times of war, he does not make alliances with one country against another. He simply sends letters of suggestions and has meetings and talks with political leaders. It is up to them whether they take his advice or not. A more recent example is when the late Pope John Paul pleaded with George Bush to reconsider going into war against Iraq. Unfortunately he did not listen.
So Paul, when you claim that the Church is meddling in church affairs, do not accuse the Church, accuse the lay-people who are doing the wrong. In cases such as war, and abortion, etc, they are not meddling in state affairs, they are meddling in God's.
posted
Interesting post. I would say the best way of imagining a Christian theocracy would be to look at a strict Muslim theocracy (Iran?) and try to imagine what a Christian version of that might be.
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