posted
There's lots of ways to present something. It doesn't sound like MD has talked with her neice directly on the issue, so at this point it's kind of hard to tell how she's really doing. Girls who have strong opinions of their own, you might be able to talk to about your own opinion, but girls who are just plain devastated, maybe the best you can do is be supportive and make sure she's sheltered enough to have the space to make her own decision.
I do think the most important thing is that the girl knows she'll be loved no matter what choice she makes, that her family will always accept her, and I would hope her church family would as well if they ever end up knowing about it. The hard part about choosing abortion is that she may carry this pain around that she doesn't feel she can talk about, where with a pregnancy, it's pretty much out there. Yeah, everybody knows which in itself is scary, but that means she doesn't *have* to pretend it didn't happen at all.
Posts: 5948 | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
I was not making any kind of judgements about the LDS church in my statement to MD regarding the church. I was simply pointing out an issue that might have an impact on whether or not the young lady in question was going to have an abortion.
Posts: 13123 | Registered: Feb 2002
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posted
The father is afraid of his own father and doesn't want him to "freak out". The pregnant neice is inactive LDS. She was just testing her limits when she started "experimenting" with this outcome. I happen to be the "older neice" and I wasn't even "authorized" to know about this, but I figured it out. She has been missing school a lot lately, that is how I figured it out. I told my aunt because right now my sister isn't the only one who needs support. I understand that my sister is in a fog of fear and panic, but I can see things a little more clear than she can. I just want to help at least point her in the "right direction" so she can see some of the facts that she can't see right now. Like that the baby is a baby. She feels it's not a baby because it's too small for her to feel yet.
Posts: 1 | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by danny1989: She feels it's not a baby because it's too small for her to feel yet.
If that was accurate criteria, then my friend, who gave birth a few weeks ago, would have been justified in aborting and killing her fetus up to the day the baby was born. My friend didn't once feel the baby kick or move her entire pregnancy, despite the docs telling her that the baby was active and healthy.
posted
If she chooses to carry to term and put the child up for adoption, the father will have to be involved. He has to sign away his parental rights to the baby. The only way to get out of that is if she doesn't know who the father is and signs an affadavit to that effect (at least in my state).
Posts: 262 | Registered: May 2004
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posted
Um, if I were to tell a fifteen year old girl that I could see more clearly than she could, that my belief system was more valid than hers, that there are millions of children on the planet right now who are not being cared for, and that I KNEW she should get an abortion, people would jump all over me for it. And rightly so. It isn't my choice, and my opinions, whatever they might be (and I use the above merely as an extreme example) really aren't that critical.
Telling her that abortion is murder and that she MUST NOT do it is just the flip side. Poor kid.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I will admit that I once knew someone in a similar situation. She was 18. I think I was 21. I was not the father, but she needed help... And all she got from her family was this "abortion is murder and the baby is a baby rap." So I paid for the abortion.
If the niece does not want to have the kid, she shouldn't be forced to. Her decision should be supported by her family so she isn't made to feel a monster the way my friend was.
Posts: 2267 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
One thing that concerns me, IMO, is that this decision should be made fairly quickly. Choosing to abort a fetus at eight weeks is not the same decision as choosing to abort a fetus at five months.
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It's possible that Moral Dilemma and her family would argue that there is no major difference--taking a life is taking a life. Still, you do have a point, if only because earlier abortions are easier on the woman's body.
Danny, have you tried talking to your sister about this? If she's afraid and confused, she could probably use a sympathetic ear. She might also benefit from a frank and open discussion of her options. Don't try to pretend that abortion isn't an option, or she may choose it out of rebellion, or out of ignorance. If she sees the downsides to going through with the pregancy, and isn't aware of the negative consequences of abortion, it might look like the most attractive option, even if it really isn't.
I hope that you'll be able to communicate your love for her, and help her to realize that her life isn't ruined forever because of this. I'm glad that she has people who care about her.
Posts: 3546 | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
I'm reviving this thread because in 24 hours we should know if my niece made the right decision (yes, in my opinion). She has an appointment for a medical abortion less than 12 hours from now.
I haven't had an opportunity to sit down and talk with her face-to-face. So, I sent her an e-mail telling her what I would tell her if we could talk. I have no idea if she will read it, but I had to find a way to tell her how I feel.
I can only hope she changes her mind - this is sliding towards disaster (again, IMO). I can see this coloring her relationship with her mom and sister at home to the point of causing a long, if not permament, rift. Her sister will have to tell her side of this, if she comes back to this thread.
And, the people in my family that I was holding back the truth from know now. But I told them in person, they didn't find out by reading it here. My mom also knows, but our dad, who lives in another state, doesn't know yet.
Any prayers for my niece would be appreciated (that she makes the decision that is right for her). Thanks.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
This is the sister. All I can really say is that I have only felt sadness and anger in the past 2 weeks. Also, that I am thinking very unchristian thoughts about this boy and his family. He's pressuring her, I know it, but I don't know how to stop it and I'm afraid I don't have enough time. I'm in a constant prayer.
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I hope everybody comes out of this situation with as little scarring as possible. Make sure the girl in quesion feels loved, no matter what ends up happening.
Posts: 1592 | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
Does that study take into account religious belief and upbringing, though? I think the amount of people in America and the amount of people in Britain who believe having an abortion is sinful may be different.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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quote:I can see this coloring her relationship with her mom and sister at home to the point of causing a long, if not permament, rift.
While I understand that she's making a decision that you (and her sister and her mother) disagree with, it does not have to cause a rift between them. I'm sure that this was an extremely hard and emotional decision for her and whatever your personal moral or religious beliefs may be, she is ultimately the only person who will have to answer for it. Now that her decision has been made, what she needs from her family is their unconditional love and support. There is no place in this situation for judgemental attitudes or statements. It's okay to be upset and disappointed in her decision, just please keep it to yourself.
Posts: 1480 | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Nato:There is no credible evidence that women who terminate an unwanted first pregnancy are at a higher risk of depression, researchers say.
They are going to have to do a damned exhaustive study to contravene the first hand experience I have had on this subject...
Posts: 3846 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
No, they just have to find statistically close numbers of women who got depressed without having an abortion.
They're not saying that women who terminate an unwanted first pregnancy don't get depressed, perhaps sometimes very much so, but that women who don't terminate an unwanted first pregnancy get depressed about as much.
Posts: 15770 | Registered: Dec 2001
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posted
MD - She's very lucky to have people in her life who care about her so much.
If it's true that the boy she was involved with was pressuring her to have an abortion (which I feel is morally reprehensible on the grounds that it's inappropriate to pressure someone regarding such a choice), it seems very possible that your efforts at least exposed her to another option. Make sure she knows how much she's loved even if she makes a decision you strongly disagree with.
quote:While I understand that she's making a decision that you (and her sister and her mother) disagree with, it does not have to cause a rift between them.
Well, the nature of the decision is such that a rift very well may be inevitable. The decision to have an unborn child surgically terminated is not like other decisions. If I were related to the girl in question, I would feel very awkward and uncomfortable being around her, because she has demonstrated that we really do not value the same things at all. It would be like having a KKK member or a Holocaust denier as a relative.
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posted
Yes, someone who has had to make that choice should be treated with compassion and love. I also believe they are at higher risks for depression, especially if they have a religious upbringing in a faith that is against abortion.
I do feel that what happened is a tragedy and my heart breaks for the unborn child, but my respect for life also extends to that young woman and I would not be showing a very respectful attitude toward life if I treated her with scorn and derision. She deserves compassion, she has gone through something that has to be very difficult and upsetting whatever your views and treating her like a criminal doesn't make anything any better.
Posts: 14428 | Registered: Aug 2001
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posted
Yozhik I feel that is a bit extreme and agree with Belle... it is a very difficult and frustrating decision regardless of what she decides... I feel bad for her...
Posts: 9942 | Registered: Mar 2003
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posted
Whoa - how exactly is someone having an abortion the equivalent of being a member of the KKK or a Nazi? Strong words, Yozhik, which I'm sure you chose because of the emotions that well up inside you. It's possible that they accurately reflect your feelings, but it might be worth examining your word choice.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I'm guessing Yozhik is expressing the discomfort one would feel at having such a person in the family - not necessarily that it's an equivalent situation.
We (LDS) are told not to "kill, nor do anything like unto it." (D&C 59:6) That scripture is referenced in "True to the Faith." In that book, it says, in part:
quote:Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints must not submit to, perform, encourage, pay for, or arrange for an abortion. If you encourage an abortion in any way, you may be subject to Church discipline.
This is why it's such a problem for the rest of the family. To us, it's not my niece "taking care of a problem." It's a deeply disturbing action - it's disrespect for God's laws and for life, itself.
I always considered myself pro-choice, in that I believed that abortion is wrong, but everyone has to make their own decisions. In a way, I guess there's a little bit of that left, because if abortion was illegal, my niece would have had to find a dangerous solution to her problem if she still insisted on having an abortion. But, I wish it was harder for her to get that abortion, difficult enough that maybe she could have gone through with the pregnancy.
My mom told me that my niece (age 17, remember?) was drunk when she had the sex that got her pregnant, and that she still drinks. She doesn't get it at home, I'm sure of that. But she apparently hasn't learned any lessons here. I'm afraid that this tragedy hasn't ended yet.
(Forgive the melodrama - it's late and I've had a stressful day.)
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
I didn't mean to imply that dealing with someone who has had an abortion would be easy; I just thought that the Nazi/ KKK reference was on a bit of a different level.
.:Edited to add articles . . . whew, my brain is broken.:.
Posts: 471 | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Just to let everyone know ... when I started this thread, I wanted opinions not based on what people thought I wanted to hear, I wanted unpreconceived ideas (does that make sense?). I went anonymous because I was hoping for opinions and advice based on the situation, not based on what people think of me. I believe I got what I asked for.
I always intended to "come out" about my identity eventually, and figured since the situation is now completely out of my hands, in the sense that the action we wanted to prevent has already happened, I might as well reveal myself.
And, the stressful day thing was about working 2 p.m. to 12:15 a.m. without a break, at a newspaper on a night with a tornado touchdown in our area (one woman died) and having problems sending page 1 to the print plant. It's 3 a.m. now and I think I should probably toddle off to bed.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
What a heartbreaking situation. I pray that the Lord's peace will be able to be felt for all of your family members and that true healing can take place. Have you put their names on the temple prayer rolls? I think it would be very helpful for all of you. ((((((HUGS))))))))
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posted
I'll have to ask my mom about that. I haven't been to the temple myself.
And, the other thing I had put out of my mind until today ... my dad doesn't know yet, afaik. I told my sister to tell him before anything happens, but I don't think that she did. (Our parents are divorced, dad remarried.) So, that has the potential to blow up in her face, since he lives in a place that is frequently visited by people in our ward.
My niece's birthday is coming up, and I'm thinking of getting her a Nativity. We had a conversation about them a couple of weeks ago, and I saw one that I think she might like. The thing is, will she think I'm trying to make a point or just that I'm trying to get her something she might like? We'll see, I guess.
Posts: 2034 | Registered: Apr 2004
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posted
You can always give it to her with a "Since you said you liked these, I saw this and thought of you." That will make it clear that you just want her to be happy.
As long as you don't think it will hurt her.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
Cai, sonsidering the situation I felt that asking it under a psudonym was completely justified.
My parents are private people, and if I had something really bothring me, and I came here asking for help, I know they wouldn't understand why I had to post something in a public forum about it. I am very far away from my family and most of my friends right now, so if something horrible or difficult happened I probably WOULD post it here....
But changing the name of who posted it, as long as you are up front about it from the beginning, is a reasonable way of asking for help while still maintaining secrecy for other involved.
I hope your neice is OK, as much as she can be at this point, and I will pray for her. Posts: 15082 | Registered: Jul 2001
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posted
You can call the temple to put her name on the prayer roll. You don't have to be there in person.
Posts: 747 | Registered: Aug 2004
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posted
I thought I was as nosy as anyone else on the board, but maybe because I'm strongly ambivalent on this issue, I'd just sit and hold her hand. And it sounds as if she needs all of the hand holding she can get.
Edit:
It looks like I have more to say. I take parenting as serious as some people take religion, and maybe it's different when you have a strong community that will mitigate a parent's screw-ups, so my understanding may not be relevant, but it doesn't sound like the girl is ready to be a good parent, and if she isn't going to be a good parent, I don't think that she should be a parent at all. Unwanted kids, absent a strong support system, are great ways to screw up lives.
Now I'm not considering doctrinal issues. In those, I'm truly out of my depth, but you wanted opinions and you have mine. I don't know how much of her soul is at play, but I do know that in my community, kids don't help people straighten out their act, they just raises the stakes on the parent's screw-ups.
A few years back I did some volunteering with a pro-life organization, one of the things they did is offer counseling for women who had had abortions. Now, I'm no counselor, nor am I a psychologist or any type of therapist, so all I did was provide a listening ear. There were professionally trained counselors that did the "real" work.
From my experience, I believe that your niece is at pretty high risk for some serious depression. If she is having second thoughts, now that it is indeed too late, there may well be a part of her that believes what she did is wrong, and that will grieve and mourn for the child.
What you have said is, I think, very helpful - if you told her that you thought what she did was fine, I'm sure she wouldn't believe you - she knows you disapprove. But more importantly, you told her you love her and always will. She will need your support. I would say it's vitally important that you reach out to her, that you let her know she can talk to you and refrain from lecturing her or browbeating her about what she has done. (not that you would, but I have talked with girls before whose families constantly berated them and called them a murderer and all it did was compound the tragedy of the situation, not improve it)
Give her love, give her support. Check in your community, there may be ministries out there like the one I volunteered with - all they did was offer support and a place for women to talk about their grief and pain, they did not preach or put any kind of pressure on them. Watch for symptoms of depression and try to encourage her and her parents to get her professional help if she seems to need it.
I'm so sorry your family is facing this tragedy, I will pray for you all.
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I didn't mean to imply that dealing with someone who has had an abortion would be easy; I just thought that the Nazi/ KKK reference was on a bit of a different level.![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
