posted
I believe love has many facets and many meanings. Yes, love is a verb, but it is a feeling as well.
Posts: 7050 | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Our society seems to have a history of thinking of "old maids" (women who have never married and are older) with scorn, considering them worthless to society. There is not near so much stigma towards men in the same state.
An awful lot of people tend to treat anyone out of the traditional biological roles as unnatural or freakish. Men who are not married late in life aren't seen as odd becuase they could still produce offspring their biological viability isn't in question.
This is also, I think, why so many people have such a visceral reaction to male homosexuality that they don't always have towards female homosexuality. Guys just aren't supposed to act submissive or feminine. Girls can do whatever they want, since it doesn't affect their own biological viability (although I understand lesbians who dress or act like men tend to get more disdain than feminine lesbians). I doubt the people who react this way think this out, preferring to couch it with religious or social reasons, but it fits the evidence.
Posts: 7790 | Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:His scorn towards an elderly unmarried and childless woman is *very* telling. I doubt he would be so scornful of a man in the same situation.
Evidently he thinks the men are just being more honest. After all, when a guy says no kids, he really means it. (takes tongue out of cheek)
I have to say that while most of his list just annoyed me, part of it is true. I did want to get married so I was honest about that from the beginning with those I dated. I told one guy that I would not get into a relationship with a guy who I couldn't see myself marrying one day. He freaked out and accused me of "shopping for a husband." Needless to say, that was our last date.
I will say though that his list is way off, especially about ages. I was engaged at 18, married at 21 and divorced at 23. I told myself that after that I never wanted to get married again. It wasn't until I was 28 that I started to feel like I was grown up enough to handle being married. I tell my students all the time to wait until they are 25 to get married since they won't have any sense until then (jokingly-- don't get offended if you are under 25). Also the "quality" arguement is WAY off. My husband now is so much better than my first husband, who my parents called The Dud.
With regards to the love is a feeling arguement, I don't feel like I had a choice to fall in love with my husband. I just fell and fell hard. It is a choice to stay in love with him and to be in a committed relationship with him. I could have chosen to be with anyone. I choose to be with him over anyone else because I love him. Does that make sense?
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quote:This is also, I think, why so many people have such a visceral reaction to male homosexuality that they don't always have towards female homosexuality. Guys just aren't supposed to act submissive or feminine.
This is an interesting idea.
quote:(although I understand lesbians who dress or act like men tend to get more disdain than feminine lesbians).
This appears to be true from what I have observed as well. I frequently hear men talk about liking the idea of girl-on-girl action. But it seems that if the girl isn't feminine at all, that takes a lot of the "fun" out of it.
quote:preferring to couch it with religious or social reasons,
I am unaware of any religious group that frowns on mannish lesbians while accepting feminine ones.
Actually, I could make a case for prejudices against lesbians being based on other prejudices: that women aren't supposed to like sex or be sensual, but only be sexual out of duty to her husband. Certainly the practice of FGM seems to grow out of this belief.
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posted
I don't think that is true in our society now. I've heard of it elsewhere, but I can't think of any support in the US right now. There's a reason for the condom box taglines.
The quality arguement is the one that is completely off to me. There's no question that the vast majority of idiots I've dated were from my teens and early twenties. I went on dates then with guys I wouldn't even glance at now. As a result, dating and everything else is so much more fun, because I don't have to suffer the fools.
Some of his points have merit(#8), but that one is so far off I'm wondering where he got it.
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posted
I will agree with him on the point that it is somewhat problematic to get married at thirty and not start having kids at 35. Medical science tells us that there are more chances of things going wrong with pregnancy after 35. Also, a younger body can simply handle the rigors of pregnancy and labor better at a young age.
But I'm not gonna get all self-righteous on people's hiney's. I mean, there is truth to the idea that people at 30 seem better able to make wise marriage choices and stable marriages.
It is possible that the luxuries of our current day and age make for an extended "adolescence" with youth not needing to take on responsibilities at so young an age and therefore not being adult enough to handle marriage until they've "settled down" a bit and come to know themselves. But I'm not sure that there is anything like an easy answer to that.
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quote:I don't think that is true in our society now. I've heard of it elsewhere, but I can't think of any support in the US right now.
Do you mean the "old maids being worthless to society" idea? If you do, I agree--which is why this guy sounds like such a dinosaur. But we have a *history* of thinking this way.
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posted
I disagree with the idea that men's options widen as they get older while women's options shrink. I think they both shrink.
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If a guy WANTS someone who's that innocent about the world, it signals to me either a desire to easily dominate, or else an inability to cope with someone on his own level. Neither is cute.
--
No bev, I meant the idea that women are not supposed to want or enjoy sex.
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quote:I don't like the idea of girls marrying very young mostly because I don't like the guys who go after the very young girls.
Kat, I completely agree with you. This is why I used to get so frustrated with my sister, who was attracted to MUCH older men (and, in some cases, acted on those attractions). I could not persuade her that the guys were interested in her BECAUSE she was so young.
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posted
I forwarded the article to my roommate, who had this to say:
quote:he seems to exist in some alternate, dystopian universe inhabited only by colossally stupid, but really snarky and sarcastic people (including, of course, Vox Day himself), who spend all of their time having bitchy arguments about the stupid shit they say. it is actually soul-crushingly depressing that these people exist.
posted
Does this mean I'm colossally stupid, really snarky, and sarcastic since I agree with him on some of the points?
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
kat, you have a No Actors rule, too? So do I! Except mine includes actors, musicians, and stand-up comedians.
Actually, considering where I am right now, anyone who's significantly involved in the entertainment industry is probably a bad idea as anything more than a friend.
As for girls dating older guys...I really think it depends on the individuals involved. There are plenty of instances where that combination works well.
My parents, for example, are ten years apart and still married after 22 years. They run a law office together. It was my father's second marriage, and my mother's first. They were married when she was 35, and I was born two years later. My mother focused on her career until my brother was born when she was 39, and she's gone back to work now that we're older. Lots of this guy's rules broken there.
My biggest age difference in an actual relationship was 8 years. The one after that was 6. The first was a disaster...and maybe that WAS an age difference factor. The guy wanted a wife to stay at home and cook for him, and although I'd made it clear from the beginning that I was very career-minded, I guess that never sank in. Or maybe he was hoping I'd change my mind.
The second one, with the 6-year difference, was much healthier and more balanced, but I think that had more to do with the fact that we came from similar backgrounds and both wanted to be ridiculously successful in our industries.
posted
I went back and read the whole article. Geez, if you're an advocate of women choosing family over career, you'd almost want to tell the guy "Thanks, but you'd help us a lot more if you'd work for the other side."
Thing is, I think that at the core, he's got some points. If what you really want is to be married and have a family, don't let today's social conventions discourage you. It's not popular to say outright that's what you want, but so what? Go for it anyway, and don't get current standards of normal stand in your way.
I interpret what he said as: 1. Date with a will. Have a purpose to it. 2. If it's important to you, make it important. Other stuff will distract you and keep you from your goal. 3. Don't wait. Do it now. 4. Be open about what you want. 5. Be honest and direct about what you want. 6. Accept only minimal delays. It's reasonable to wait a little while, but waiting a longer period of time is contrary to your goal. 7. If your friends are not supportive, they aren't your friends. 8. Be wise in your choice. Don't let your emotions make the decision. 9. Don't wait, do it now. 10. Once you commit, there's no backing out if you stop liking the guy you chose.
My main problem with his list is that it's not in the least bit helpful. Seriously, if there's a girl whose main object in life is to be a mother and a wife, all of those ascerbic "rules" could be condensed down to:
1. Know what you want in life and go for it openly, honestly and diligently. 2. Make good choices and recognize mistakes for the valuable learning experiences they are. 3. Don't let emotions alone make critical decisions.
Which are pretty good tips for just about anything you want.
To which slightly more helpful would be tips for actually acheiving the above. Tips, not rules.
* Watch how your beloved treats the women in his family. While it may not be exactly how he'll treat his wife, you'll see some of it as his partner.
* Even if marriage and family is your primary object, develop skills that will make you employable anyway. Life happens, and your family will probably need you to have a job outside the home sooner or later.
* Fully examine the life you're choosing. It is not an escape from adulthood. It is hard work with very few external rewards, and it is often looked down upon and unrespected.
* This is not a zero-sum game. You can have children before you're 25 and have a career too. Don't expect this choice to be easy either, and do be prepared to compromise both sides of your life.
And if you are religious:
* While you may want family and marriage dearly, that may not be God's plan for you. Be open to where he's leading you. Scripture promises that he has good plans for you, to prosper and not to harm.
Which leads me to wonder what our own personal rules are for picking a mate. I had quite a few after my first marriage ended. I broke some of these when I married for the second time, and I can't say I regret it.
* Don't pick someone way older. (*crack* broke this one)
* Pick someone who looks back on his childhood and says it was very happy. (*crack* broke this one)
* He must be financially stable with a good job. (check)
* Don't pick someone your family hates. (check)
* He has to be able to sing and cook, not necessarily at the same time. (*crack* and *crack*)
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posted
Numbers 8 and 3 seem contradictory to me -- be very choosy because you're going to have to live with the guy but don't be very choosy because if you let this one get away you won't find anyone better.
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posted
It's not really contradictory (at least in my mind). I saw it as be choosy but be choosy now (rather than waiting till later). If you wait till later, then you can't be as choosy.
Posts: 1960 | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I think everything except the first sentence points towards choosy. Plus you can take settle to mean a few different things.
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I took it as be choosy as in make sure he fits the criteria, but settle as in do not turn away a guy that fits the criteria but is not the man of you dreams because you might not find another guy.
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posted
I took his intent behind 'settle' to mean 'settle down' not 'settle for'. Poor choice of words, but then, there was a lot of that in his essay.
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posted
Let me just add how happy I am that I didn't settle for the guy I was almost engaged to in college.
My thought process was actually similar to what this guy is advocating -- I considered that if I really wanted to be married I should stick with that guy. I knew I could make it work, but I finally admitted to myself that I would be spending my whole life "making" it work. And then I didn't date for 10 years, and decided that I probably never would.
And here I am, 33 and happily, nay ecstatically, married to a man that I never could have dated when I was 19.
The author is a twit. Marry when you find a person that you want to share your life with. Not because you're afraid you won't.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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posted
One thing I think the author of this article and a lot of people need to realize is what is right for them isn't right for everyone. Case in point, dkw, I couldn't get married at that age. I have no doubt that by the time I'm 30 or so if I'm not married I probably won't ever be.
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posted
It's all odds and probability. The odds of me finding a girl I want to share my life with are fairly low at my current age. At that age, they will be a lot lower (due to many of the opposite sex getting married). So the odds are fairly against that. Note, I'm only speaking for myself here. This may not (and probably doesn't) hold true for others.
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Yes, your odds would be statistically lower. But so would everyone else's. So in what sense are you speaking for yourself?
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I know several people who say that, after many, many years of being single and living alone quite prosperously, they are too set in their ways and too much accustomed to having their own way to accept anyone who didn't fit into that life perfectly.
This is what they say; I think if they met someone that was right for them, they (and the prospective partners) would adjust to each other -- but I definitely think it would have to be extraordinary circumstances.
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posted
My odds are low to start with. If you lower an already low number, it's much lower. That's how I'm speaking for myself.
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pfresh, I think the mistake you're making here is assuming you know the odds of you finding someone you want to spend the rest of your life with, now or ever. Your personal experience really can't give you those numbers. The odds could be incredibly good and you've just been unlucky so far and "beaten" the odds. Or the odds could suck, and you could still "beat" those odds and meet the perfect person when you're 36, or 29, or tomorrow. So when you say you "couldn't" get married at 33, like dkw did, you are basing that off nothing other than your own pessimisim. Which is fine, if you want to go that way. But don't try to pretend it's a statistical certainty. . . there's no way of knowing. None of us ever has any way of knowing.
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If I had time to pose my argument (and I do have a good argument), I would. I need to get to work on a paper though.
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posted
I'm moving my edit here, since you already replied. You said you "couldn't" get married at my advanced age. That sounds a lot more specific than "statistically, my chances are lower." I assure you that if you happen to still be single in ten years and find a mate then you certainly could fall in love at 32 or 42 or 52 or even 82.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Does this mean I'm colossally stupid, really snarky, and sarcastic since I agree with him on some of the points?
Well, to clarify, my friend was referring mainly to Vox's blog, where the following exchange occurs.
A woman sends him the following email (quite likely made up, since this is the internet, but that doesn't really change things):
quote:Your views are simplistic. I am a 55 year old woman. When I was 20, I married an articulate, intelligent medical student with a good background and a promising future. Twelve years later, he was a drug addict, had literally shot me in the back, abandoned me with two children, and eventually went to prison. I had delayed my own career. I married again: this time a college-educated oil and cattle baron. 21 years later, he turned out to have a preference for little boys and embezzlement, injured me to the point of hospitalization, and fled the country to avoid a financial obligation of the divorce settlement. I am now permanently disabled and cannot "return to an education or career". While I love my son, I would trade it all for a chance to make another choice: a career, dignity, and financial independence.
To which the author replies:
quote:My views may be simplistic. Of course, demographics and mathematics are equally so.And while it may be equally simplistic to point this out, the evidence would appear to suggest that DE is an impressively bad judge of character. Clearly she has never worked in an office, or she would not think there is any dignity to be found there. Still, unlike many women who have had careers, she has contributed materially to the continued existence of the human race even if she now regrets doing so.
posted
I take could as "it's possible," not whether I desire it or not. I think that at 30, it's not very possible that I'd get married, so therefore I couldn't do it. Again, I can't go into details since I'm working on something else at the moment.
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As a tangent, the reason I broke off the earlier relationship was that I decided I'd rather be happily single than "settle." And I was happily single, without going on any dates (by choice) from the time I was 22 to the time I was 32. I could still be happily single. I seriously considered whether I wanted to risk that happiness by getting into a relationship, even one that seemed absolutely perfect for me.
And my odds were pretty bad too.
Posts: 9866 | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Destineer: Quoting the Big Advice Man of the Universe:
quote:My views may be simplistic. Of course, demographics and mathematics are equally so.And while it may be equally simplistic to point this out, the evidence would appear to suggest that DE is an impressively bad judge of character. Clearly she has never worked in an office, or she would not think there is any dignity to be found there. Still, unlike many women who have had careers, she has contributed materially to the continued existence of the human race even if she now regrets doing so.
Wow, what a jerk. I don't really think I was such a great judge of character at 18, for the record. And what's with the snarky shot at the "many women who have had careers?" My GP is female. She contributes materially to my continued existence by diagnosing that I needed asthma medication. Darn it all, who does she think she is, anyhow? Bad old career woman.
Oh, and she had twins three months ago. Ha!
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posted
I have noticed since I have been in the South that there is more pressure to get married early. There seem to be more college students engaged here then back home.
As for me I am not really sure. I would like to get married, but I do not want to marry for the sake of marrying. I figure I assume that I will not get married until I meet someone who changes my mind.
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Allegra: When my new roommates found out I was from New Orleans, they asked me if it was a Southern thing to be married very young. Apparently, one of them knows a girl whose entire family was engaged by 18.
That hasn't been my experience at all, and I was born and raised in the South.
Then again, my mother was from upstate New York, and she's been the biggest influence on my dating habits. She went out of her way to make sure I didn't feel the need to settle down and become a housewife. But I don't think my very Southern father is in a hurry for me to settle down, either. My sister (who is now 41) never married, and it's never seemed to be an issue in our family; she's very successful career-wise.
posted
I know that not everyone down here get married early, but I think it is more common then in the North.
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But not in the west. My friends from Montana were almost all engaged by the time we graduated college. My friends in Louisiana are getting married a little later - 24-28 years old.
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posted
I knew one couple who were married in college, and another one who married after graduating. I went to a school in the South, and most of the students were Southern in origin.
I married at 23 (but I didn't 'settle' ). I think a lot of the people I went to HS with did marry younger than I did, at least, those who did not go to college.
I think it may be the Bible Belt thing, guilt for having pre-marital sex leading to younger marriages. But I can't support that with evidence.
Oh, and while I'm thinking of it:
quote: Than, Then. "Then is an adverb meaning "at that time" or "next in order". "Than" is a conjunction used in a comparison. We walked more then than we do now.
posted
I just frantically reread my post, making sure I hadn't misused then or than. Then, when I was sure I was in the clear, a smug sense of superiority came over me. Then I saw a typo in this post and crashed back down to earth.
Posts: 5462 | Registered: Apr 2005
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quote: The guy wanted a wife to stay at home and cook for him, and although I'd made it clear from the beginning that I was very career-minded, I guess that never sank in. Or maybe he was hoping I'd change my mind.
Or maybe he thought that even though you said you were very career-minded, you didn't *really* mean it.
Man, this guy is like those men who think that "no" means "yes" when it comes from a female.
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My mother focused on her career until my brother was born when she was 39, and she's gone back to work now that we're older. Lots of this guy's rules broken there.![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
