posted
Well, there are some big problems there, and I have very strong ideas on the solutions to some of them-- but they're all issues that need to be solved for our sakes as much as for those of the immigrants! Unfortunately, politicians always seem to be looking for the quick fix, and that's not going to work here. Until we can fix it, I don't think it's fair to make sweeping policies in either direction.
Consider that the suggested solution of "kick them all out and start over" would cost money that could be spent on schools, health care, and creating sustainable agriculture and better infrastructure in third-world countries.
Posts: 21182 | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
There's a long and dishonorable history of hand-wringing over what to do about the relentless flood of immigrants. I'm not exactly sure that your sequence is the right one. Using words like "fair" and "until all these questions are answered and solved" are just smoke screens for halting immigration.
First off, that's impossible.
Secondly, it would likely do damage to our nation.
Thirdly, there's no realistic hope of solving, let alone answering all the questions you pose.
There never has been. And we've not only gotten along just fine, but thrived.
Lastly, the stories ARE important. Because it helps to remind people of what is at stake. If the folks who wanted all the questions solved first had gotten their way back when my grandparents were arriving here, I believe America would be a poorer place. Not just for a distinct lack of Scopatz's in the population, but cause of all the others too -- your people, mine and everyone elses who contributed so much more than they ever cost this country.
Posts: 22497 | Registered: Sep 2000
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posted
I never said stories such as yours or mine or anyone's weren't important.
You can't honestly compare the mass immigrations of the past in America to mass immigration now. America was different then. Our population was smaller, our capacity to take care of a growing population was far greater. Our population has doubled in the last fifty years, and the system is just barely keeping up with it. Yes, we have thrived, but how long until that bubble bursts?
Maybe you are referring to someone else Bob, though I think you're just making an in general statement, but I never suggested halting immigration entirely. On the contrary, I suggested increasing legalized immigration, and changing immigration laws to make it easier for immigrants to come in.
But saying that it is unrealistic to hope to solve all our problems, so we should just let people come in as they may, to hell with the consequences, it worked out in the past, surely it will work out now, is very, dangerously irresponsible.
If we do that, 20 years from now we're going to hear twice as many arguments about how Americans are trying to keep their latin american immigrants down, how they don't care about them and their plight. And what will we do then, when the problem is twice as bad?
You want to grow plants in a closed environment, you make sure there is sunlight, water, and good soil to make sure the plants grow. Now in the past there have been plenty of resources for those plants to thrive, yet currently we find a lack of all three. Do you think it is a good idea to keep planting more and more plants without resources in place to make sure they survive, just because it has worked in the past, ignoring the current situation and how it differs from the past one?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
So much for population density. The link lists population density, including the world average. The world is at 43. The USA is at 30.
I submit this as evidence that we aren't as overcrowded as you think.
ASIDE: I do think that our land use is terrible, and instead of all the subdivisions going up and adding sprawl, we should build up rather than out. It helps integrate communities, supports local businesses, and helps on various issues from traffic to oil consumption. The catch is that we Americans, in general, have never been been good neighbors.
As for your points:
1) We pay for their medical service now! They currently go to the ER, since they know they can't be turned away. Make legalization popular to them (and employers), and they pay for some of their health insurance, at least. Or they go to the ER, just like they currently do.
2) THat largely has to be resolved outide of the realm of immigration reform. We need some fiscal responsibility, ASAP. And immigrants won't make it any worse if we do that. Plus they take out based on what they put in.
3) Taxes collected will help pay for these kids. They are getting educated, even as illegals currently.
4) You hire Mexicans and Central Americans, and when they want to go back home, you let them. They'll invest in theirhome nations themselves... Likely using US dollars to buy US stuff.
BTW, I'm talking temporary work visas, not automatic citizenship... Who says they even want that? ---
The way you grow the plants is you stop using "closed environment", and let the roots go whither they want.
posted
My problem isn't overcrowding, I think we certainly have the space for those that are coming in, my problem is our infrastructure.
They don't ALL go to the ER, thousands are afraid of being deported. Many communities and especially inner cities already have overtaxed underfunded hospitals that are just barely making due with what they have. Any added pressure will break them.
So long as we can make sure that they won't get any more out than they put into it, I agree it won't harm the system at all. But it will NOT, as you have previously stated, solve the system.
They aren't all being educated, and our classrooms are already overcrowded and understaffed across the country. Plus, you and others claims that many of these illegal immigrants are already paying taxes, so exactly how much extra money are you counting on flowing in once we start taxing all this untaxed labor?
Has there been a noticeable change in the economies of central american nations and Mexico? BILLIONS of American dollars already go down south of the border, how much more are you expecting to go down there? Especially if you lower the minimum wage, which will decrease our tax revenue.
Letting the plants grow wherever they want caused a few million immigrant deaths in our history by the way. Are you okay with a few million more?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
When was that, exactly? What's wrong with letting people work here for several years, go back to their home nations, and then return if they like? I think the issues (which there will be) won't be as bad as you fear... Because the fears people have had throughout US history about immigration were generally more overblown than reality.
Posts: 7021 | Registered: Nov 1999
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posted
The early 1800's and the early 1900's especially.
And if that were the case, I don't think I would have a problem with it, except even if it was, the US isn't set up to support a multimillion person transient population that comes and goes.
And I've seen no proof that a significant portion of the illegal immigrants have any intention of leaving anytime soon. Why has there been no decrease in the illegal immigrant population if this were the case?
Unless you are suggesting that when we throw open the borders to visa workers, they will pour in, and then pour back out again when they've made the money they want. That'd be an idea I'd be willing to discuss.
Even if I represent the most extreme view of my end of the spectrum, which I really think I don't, my concerns will have to be addressed, or a VIABLE solution that benefits everyone will never be found.
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
You can't plan it all out ahead of time, Lyr. There are always risks. The alternative is stagnation, though. But at least it's stagnation with "our" people, I guess.
The illegals come and go. Many (most?) of the migrant works in this country are illegals. They're here for harvest seasons, and then leave. Many that don't leave, stay for fear that they won't be able to get back in later.
Also, what killed the immigrants in the time periods of the above?
posted
Where is your information about the multi million man migration that takes place every year?
Secondly, poor health care killed most of them.
Luckily we've fixed that problem in America.
And I don't want it ALL planned out to the letter necessarily, though that would be ideal. However, some people don't seem to want to plan out ANYTHING or fix ANYTHING. Shouldn't we at least try and start fixing the most important issues now?
Posts: 21898 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Why is everyone assuming that there will always be large numbers of illegal immigrants? If that's true why don't we just forget the whole "border patrol" thing?
I believe that it is in the nation's best interest to identify everyone who comes into the country. Call me crazy, but allowing strangers into the country who may or may not want to hurt the country does not sound like the best security plan. I realize that the VAST majority of immigrants just want a better life in America, but the citizens already in the country need to look after their own interests first.
Also, tell me again why it is so beneficial to have illegal aliens working below minimum wage jobs? Those are jobs that could go to Americans who will put their earnings back into the American market, not send it to relatives next door. The loss of that revenue from being plugged into the American economy has to have a debilitating affect.
Posts: 201 | Registered: Mar 2005
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